poetry and opinion

[PatCarrington]

i wonder how other writers feel about a question i pose to myself /

can a poem i read be good poetry if it seems to express an opinion that is diametrically opposed to something i believe in?

my answer is “yes” / and i always assumed that answer was obvious, and that every writer felt that way without thinking /

the reason i ask is that i just received a rather nasty and anonymous email / the sender’s point being that as a man, i had no right to express my thoughts on abortion, in a poem or any other way / the sender also expressed the opinion that a poem with the leanings i expressed could not possibly be worth the paper it is written on

the poem i posted today, ‘silver’, is an opinion, i suppose, though i do not presume to instruct anyone other myself on how to feel about anything / nothing in this world breaks my heart more deeply than the death of a child / i have known that

at any rate, when poets read other poetry, do we judge the poetry or the opinion?


pat

 

[jd4george]

Pat, some of the most amazing things I have ever read were outside of my own morals, ethics and politics. What is important is the truth, vision and voice of the poet.

Your poem will sit with me for days. That makes me suspect that it is quite good... and I said something to that effect in my comment.

I'm going to quote Ginsburg from a 1969 poetry reading I was lucky enough to attend: "People don't like your stuff... then fuck'em. Not willing to change... then fuck you."

From what I keep reading in these threads, Anonymous is an idiot. True of any poet, and most assuredly true of me, is that I sign my opinions just as proudly as I sign my poems. Both are sharing bits and pieces of me.

It was a good poem, Pat, and that is what I judged. I cannot judge you, because I am not you.

Flip him the bird, and write another poem... perhaps about ignorance?

 

[hot4teacher1975]

I'd have to read ther poem, but I think poetry effects us on many levels.
Deifferent readers are going to have differign opinions of your poem based on how it made them feel and what they think of the ideas discussed within.

If I'd had han abortion and then read an anti-abortion poem that seemed to condemn my decision... I might send you an email like that.

If I were the Republican Party, I'd send you flowers.

EDIT: Oh, and about being a man... I am one too and will talk about whatever the heck I want to IN MY WRITING. I just don't presume to know what childbirth or an abortion would feel like, for obvious reasons...
I feel the need to staunchly state:

Don't ever let anyone tell you to write about!
Think of all the beautiful art and work that would not be with us today if the creator COULD NOT EXPRESS THEMSELVES.

 

[sandspike]

It was a damn good poem

You wrote a beautiful poem. The fact I don't agree with you
made me halfstep, but I can't help to see the beauty in your
work. We all have different views about something. This
issue is a hot issue, but its still a good poem. It won't be
one I read again, but I will remember the style and beauty
of the words.

 

[PatCarrington]

my intention was NOT to spark a debate on politics / or on abortion /

the question i posed was not a political or moral one / it was a literary query

from an intellectual point of view, when poets read other poetry, should the poetry itself, or the opinion within, be judged?

 

[hot4teacher1975]

the question i posed was not a political or moral one / it was a literary query from an intellectual point of view, when poets read other poetry, should the poetry itself, or the opinion within, be judged?

Why do you write with slashes? ;-)

To answer your question-

If you write a good poem about why all Jews and Mexicans--for example-- should be slaughtered I'm going to tell you it sucks no mater what.

Some ideas are repulsive no matter how beautifully you frame them. Right?

I say that the poetry and the opinion should and will both be judged.

 

[PatCarrington]

If you write a good poem about why all Jews and Mexicans--for example-- should be slaughtered I'm going to tell you it sucks no mater what.

i think it is safe to assume that the opinion in question should have two 'sane' sides to it /

the slaughtering of Jews and Mexicans does not /

 

[flyguy69]

I think you allude to an important distinction between judging and liking. It is clear from the feedback you have gotten on "silver" that some folks separate opinion from quality and "judge" based on the latter (though your letter writer clearly does not and judges, rather, on your gender!). Most readers would claim they distinguish these elements whether successful or not.

But it is far easier to "like" a poem that expresses opinions like our own. Many comments that laud mediocre poetry claim "that's just how I feel!", while praise for inflammatory verse is much more guarded. How would you feel about an eloquent poem that advocated infanticide for gender selection reasons? How do you feel about mysogynistic ghetto rap? Personally, I can't stand it and, while I tell myself I can appreciate the effort and creativity behind it, the message so strongly colors my response that I just can't like it.

It is just as important to remove my personal resonance from bad writing, and to avoid the pitfall of praising crap that expresses what I feel. But it is still a lot easier to give a five to good verse I agree with than to great verse I hate.

Poetry is so much more than linguistic gymnastics that it is probably both unavoidable and undesireable to separate the message from the structure.

 

[thenry]

Anyone who reads Lolita should already know the answer to this question.

 

[thenry]

As for the Jews and Mexicans thing - I for one would be very interested to read a poem illuminating the mindset of fear or power where genocide is necessary for safety.

Good poetry exists outside of the frame of the poem's words, even if only while you explain to someone else why you didn't like it.

 

[PatCarrington]

flyguy69 & thenry


extremely intelligent thoughts

 

[DeepAsleep]

(going to ramble, a little - I blame lack of sleep )

Breaking it down:

You have, the poem, from a literary standpoint - i.e., how it's put together, how well it conveys its message/imagery - all the mechanics of a poem. Which not everyone agrees on, although there is a pretty good.. eh.. 'baseline' for judging a poem, an average of what people agree is generally 'good.'

On the other hand, you have the poem's message - i.e., what the poem says and/or stands for - the writer's perspective.

Judging a poem strictly by how well it's written, or just mechanically, takes the soul out of the poem. Judging it strictly by it's message puts your ego onto the poem.

Subjectively, you can hate what a poem stands for, but if you can step back far enough to be objective, you can appreciate how well it was written, how well it said what the author needed to say.

what I don't have time to get into is that I think calling a poem "wrong" because of its' message is no man's right (and fuck free speech). There's no universal standard of right and wrong, only a division that is generally socially acceptable. Think a poem is wrong all you want and talk with the author about it, but rationalizing a poem by putting facts or your own opinions in someone else's face is shitting where they sleep. If people only wrote with fact or your opinion, it wouldn't be poetry, it'd be non-fiction. ...

I say this because I look at a lot of poetry as a generally abstract way to describe emotions and the way they influence us, which I see as more complex than just 'happy' or 'sad.' ...endless combinations that emit one feeling, I guess. Telling someone they're wrong to feel about something is asinine... I could get all "1984," 'Your poem is a thoughtcrime!' to further explain, but I'm sure you see what I'm trying to say.

So. If I like a poem's message, yay. If I don't, I try to ask questions about why a person might feel that way, because I want to understand what they're trying to make me understand. ... .

Eh. lunchbreak is over. hope i helped.

~D.A.

 

[Liar]

Nothing much to add here. Yes, a poem can be good even if I oppose it's message. To take a harmless example; I have read many poems about the joys of gardening. I hate gardening, everything I tough withers and dies, and I find it boring beyond belief to dig the soil and all that jazz. A poem that can communicate the writer's joy to me is not going to make me like gardens, but it will make me understand how the writer feels about it.

And you are free to write about anything at all. I wrote a story once about a woman who was raped. I am not a woman and have never been raped. But it is a mark of a good writer to be able to practice empathic imagination, to live and put words to a situation through the eyes of another, and to understand another's perspective. At least good enough to write with some insight about it that reaches beyond our own horizon. And even if we don't, the issue in itself have a human perspective that anyone can have an opinion about. Same thing with abortions.

Besides, I am not opposed to abortions, but I have no objection to your poem. Maybe you are trying to be moralist about the issue, but what I read is the universal dilemma and pain that such a desicion causes, especially to the one making the desicion. Again, a human dimension to a tough issue.

#L

 

[PatCarrington]

Nothing much to add here. Yes, a poem can be good even if I oppose it's message. To take a harmless example; I have read many poems about the joys of gardening. I hate gardening, everything I tough withers and dies, and I find it boring beyond belief to dig the soil and all that jazz. A poem that can communicate the writer's joy to me is not going to make me like gardens, but it will make me understand how the writer feels about it.

And you are free to write about anything at all. I wrote a story once about a woman who was raped. I am not a woman and have never been raped. But it is a mark of a good writer to be able to practice empathic imagination, to live and put words to a situation through the eyes of another, and to understand another's perspective. At least good enough to write with some insight about it that reaches beyond our own horizon. And even if we don't, the issue in itself have a human perspective that anyone can have an opinion about. Same thing with abortions.

Besides, I am not opposed to abortions, but I have no objection to your poem. Maybe you are trying to be moralist about the issue, but what I read is the universal dilemma and pain that such a desicion causes, especially to the one making the desicion. Again, a human dimension to a tough issue.

#L

liar

you added a lot / empathic imagination is indeed the mark of a good writer

i am not a moralist at all, nor trying to be / when i sat to write this poem monday, abortion was the farthest thing from my mind / it was my intention to write some sort of tribute to dead children / it just bent as i wrote

 

[BlueskyBeauty]

i'm with liar on this one. i have written from a mans perspective on many topics ..things including, having a penis..which i don't have nor ever care to

point being we can write through empathetic eyes and show a perspective that might be right on target for some and way off base for others.

it's a good writer who can write about something they have never experienced yet write like they've touched the very center of whatever the issue might be.

and abortion is a mans issue as well. i have close friends..male friends who still have scars because of abortions they didn't want their unborn child's mother having.

fathers have no rights as long as the fetus is carried by the woman, that's simply the way it is but it doesn't mean that abortion is not something men cant identify with..quite the contrary in my humble opinion.

 

[DeepAsleep]

fathers have no rights as long as the fetus is carried by the woman, that's simply the way it is but it doesn't mean that abortion is not something men cant identify with..quite the contrary in my humble opinion.

I was with a girl for two years, and she had three abortions that she never bothered to consult with me about (one self-administered, no less.) until after they were done. She was on the pill, and we regularly used condoms, so it's not as if we were riding bareback and carefree. My family is fertile.

Disregarding the risks to her health (for which she was personally responsible, no matter how concerned I was)...

Well. I think it's a fucked up thing to do. It takes two to make a life and it's at the least polite to discuss things with the father as it can affect him just as hard, emotionally. Sure, I never had to feel the physical loss, or the guilt of pulling the proverbial trigger, but that doesn't mean I don't think about it constantly, or still feel the pain, or helplessness of a possible father's position.

Sorry to threadjack.

~D.A.

 

[Guest]

I was with a girl for two years, and she had three abortions that she never bothered to consult with me about (one self-administered, no less.) until after they were done. She was on the pill, and we regularly used condoms, so it's not as if we were riding bareback and carefree. My family is fertile.

Disregarding the risks to her health (for which she was personally responsible, no matter how concerned I was)...

Well. I think it's a fucked up thing to do. It takes two to make a life and it's at the least polite to discuss things with the father as it can affect him just as hard, emotionally. Sure, I never had to feel the physical loss, or the guilt of pulling the proverbial trigger, but that doesn't mean I don't think about it constantly, or still feel the pain, or helplessness of a possible father's position.

Sorry to threadjack.

~D.A.

I'm with you on that DA, been there, experienced it and still feel the afterSHOCKs eight years later.


tom
also sorry for the threadjack



edited because I forgt who I was supposed to be...

 

[annaswirls]

From what I keep reading in these threads, Anonymous is an idiot.

anonymous is not just one person, I have left anon comments on peoples work in pc, always positive comments and not so much anymore.

Pat, I had a Pro-life march AV and "paid" for my political opinion too. Some people cannot separate their passion with their judgmenent of art. I relate to both sides to just about any issue, so it is not too difficult to read something on its merit.

I gotta go read the poem.

It might steam me up a bit but I will take it as a poem.


~anna

 

[LunaKat]

Don't pay attention to trolls, Pat. Express anything you wish.

 

[twelveoone]

Why do you write with slashes? ;-)

To answer your question-

If you write a good poem about why all Jews and Mexicans--for example-- should be slaughtered I'm going to tell you it sucks no mater what.

Some ideas are repulsive no matter how beautifully you frame them. Right?

I say that the poetry and the opinion should and will both be judged.

I realize you are making a bit of an overstatement to make a point, and that point that you make is already done, we carry into the reading, not only are feeling about the opinion but also who wrote it.
"Repulsive", this is a subjective evaluation, as is "beautifully", so, no, the implication here is that the evaluation will be carried out at the same time, by the same person, what you are saying is a bit of contradiction.

As long as you leave your name and the reason you think it sucks, a dialogue can begin, sometimes some good comes out of it, at rare times, understanding.

Wasn't it Jonathan Swift that wrote something about the solution to overpopulation was that the Irish eat their babies? (check me on this)

Pat, I read your poem, I read it twice, long enough to see how good it was, I could not read it anymore. I do not have an opinion on this issue, just pain.

The pain of the last century came from the "correctness" of ideas, judgements, the pain of this century will be much worse, unless we open a dialogue with others, with ourselves, to try to arrive at understanding. Anonymous comments cut it off.

 

[Tathagata]

No matter what you write...some one is not going to like it.
there is a " faction" out there who consider anyone that doesnt agree with their beliefs fair game for hate mail and "1"ing every poem there after.
i feel bad they don't have more of a life.
Look at it this way..if lit was a coffee shop we all stopped in and had coffee and chatted we would eventually hear things we may not agree with.
Some of those people might decide to base you on that fact alone.
Those people aren't worth worrying about.
you can feel bad for them because their minds are a prison and they live their life hating things.
Their would be people who wouldn't agree with you but wouldn't say anything
Their would be people who would want to change your mind
People who would accept you for who and what you are and continue to buy you that mocha latte although they considerate it rather effeminate for you



In the end...write what you feel...knowing, as I'm sure you do, not everyone is going to agree with you.
Shrug your shoulders and go on.

it is a hot topic
it is sure to press buttons
just like sex, or any kind of " perverse" poetry often brings emails telling me and others we are sick and going to hell.

I usually send back
" yawn"..tell me something i don't know

because I'm a bit of a smart ass

I look upon anything you or anyone else writes as a poem, expressing a feeling or a belief, and no matter how I feel about the subject..if it beautiful it is beautiful,.


( somebody run this fucker through a spell check...oh wait..i will)

 

[The Mutt]

I realize you are making a bit of an overstatement to make a point, and that point that you make is already done, we carry into the reading, not only are feeling about the opinion but also who wrote it.
"Repulsive", this is a subjective evaluation, as is "beautifully", so, no, the implication here is that the evaluation will be carried out at the same time, by the same person, what you are saying is a bit of contradiction.

As long as you leave your name and the reason you think it sucks, a dialogue can begin, sometimes some good comes out of it, at rare times, understanding.

Wasn't it Jonathan Swift that wrote something about the solution to overpopulation was that the Irish eat their babies? (check me on this)

Pat, I read your poem, I read it twice, long enough to see how good it was, I could not read it anymore. I do not have an opinion on this issue, just pain.

The pain of the last century came from the "correctness" of ideas, judgements, the pain of this century will be much worse, unless we open a dialogue with others, with ourselves, to try to arrive at understanding. Anonymous comments cut it off.

Any opinion that is not worth signing your name to is not worth listening to.
I have opinions on abortion and the right to choose, but until I grow a uterus, I will keep them to my self.
BTW The Irish do not eat their babies. They don't go with cabbage.

 

[tarablackwood22]

Any opinion that is not worth signing your name to is not worth listening to.
I have opinions on abortion and the right to choose, but until I grow a uterus, I will keep them to my self.
BTW The Irish do not eat their babies. They don't go with cabbage.

Amen to your first sentence. That means I agree with and respect it religiously.

Mutt -- I was wondering....would I have had the right to have and express an opinion on the Berlin Wall, if I wanted, even though I am not German....or on the morality of hunting a deer for sport, even though I don't own a gun and wish to hang Monet from my walls instead of antlers.....or on the presence and value of someone's tears, if I've never felt their pain.

I'm Irish, and Irish babies are far too cute to use a fork on.

I hate cabbage.

 

[Angeline]

My parents always said don't discuss politics or religion in company because you'll say things you'll regret. Passionately held opinions are what poems are all about though--no matter the subject. A poem without underlying passion is a flat thing.

When I read a well-written, moving poem that espouses an opinion opposite from my own, I feel very uncomfortable. Why? I think because it makes me see the humanity of the "other side," and that of course makes me question my position. Not only is there nothing wrong with that, imho the best poems are the ones that give you that reaction. Poetry should make you feel, and to react to something you'd normally dismiss is the beginning of growth, I think.

Anonymous should thank you--your poem made her think enough to react.

 

[tarablackwood22]

My parents always said don't discuss politics or religion in company because you'll say things you'll regret. Passionately held opinions are what poems are all about though--no matter the subject. A poem without underlying passion is a flat thing.

When I read a well-written, moving poem that espouses an opinion opposite from my own, I feel very uncomfortable. Why? I think because it makes me see the humanity of the "other side," and that of course makes me question my position. Not only is there nothing wrong with that, imho the best poems are the ones that give you that reaction. Poetry should make you feel, and to react to something you'd normally dismiss is the beginning of growth, I think.

Anonymous should thank you--your poem made her think enough to react.

Posts like this are why you are part of the brain trust here.

Good morning, sister. All settled in your new digs?