Piss off time

[SeaCat]

Okay I just read this and got pissed off again. When will the states start making realistic laws? Even if you don't agree with this guys methods the laws go too far.

Child Abuse in Plymouth Mass.?

Cat

 

[Dar~]

Okay I just read this and got pissed off again. When will the states start making realistic laws? Even if you don't agree with this guys methods the laws go too far.

Child Abuse in Plymouth Mass.?

Cat

I don't think spanking with anything other than a hand on th ebutt is cool. I do however agree that the "deadly weapon" is a bit extreme. He wasn't pistol whipping his kid. ( I was repeatedly beaten with items ranging form a belt to an electric cord, use of an object, makes it harder to control the force of the blow. that is why I am so against it.)

 

[Guest]

My father would still be doing time. When I was a child and I did something that was not acceptable, I got my ass spanked. From that day forward I knew better than to do that again.

Today when someone disciplines their child even in private they risk going to jail. And that is the very reason that nearly every time I go to the grocery store I have to listen to a child sitting in the middle of the cereal isle, screaming at the top of their lungs because mommy won't get Fruity Pebbles.

It pisses me off even more to know that these laws were passed by people who don't know when to MIND THEIR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

.....

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

A belt is a deadly weapon only if the guy had used it to hang his kid from the rafters. Six swats with a belt that leaves no mark may not be politically correct, but it certainly is not assault with a deadly weapon.

Just from my reading of the article, this sounds more like a skirmish in a war between a battling divorced couple and their kid, who has learned how to manipulate his parents.

There is REAL ABUSE of children going on. Boneheads perpetrating incidents like this only makes witnesses less likely to report a serious case.

 

[R. Richard]

There is REAL ABUSE of children going on. Boneheads perpetrating incidents like this only makes witnesses less likely to report a serious case.

The boy who cried wolf thing all over again!

 

[SeaCat]

What is just as disturbing to me is the fact that our society has mandated that a childs parents can't discipline their child but they are liable for their childs actions if they do something wrong.

Cat

 

[rgraham666]

Nothing.

 

[SeaCat]

Nothing.

Rob,

I understand and appologise if this thread offends or disturbs you.

Cat

 

[Liar]

This reminds me of a certain can of worms I opened here in the AH many months ago. And believe me, I'm not going to make that mistake again.

So I just say this: I and my generation of Scandinavian 20 to 30 year olds is tangible proof that lack of spanking does not make worse kids.

The vast majority of the generation before us got physical dicipline as a part of their upbringing. The next generation, due to factors that I can elaborate on later if you wish, did not get physical dicipline (as in spanking, slapping and such).

The result? No difference. Not more criminal, not more rebellic, no less morals, no less educated, the list of anticipated drawbacks that did not happen can be made virtually endless.

And that's all I'll ever have to say about that. Not gonna get into debate about it, because last time I did, I got crushed by the sheer force of the "don't tell me how to raise my kids"-replies.

So over and out, I'm confident that physical dicipline is not harmful in moderate amount, so no, I won't tell you how to raise your kids. All I'm saying is that I am a part of a multi million headed cluster of comparative data saying it doesn't actually do much good either.

roll on,
#L

 

[rgraham666]

Rob,

I understand and appologise if this thread offends or disturbs you.

Cat

Well, I remember getting spanked for 'losing my homework'. My bullies slammed me against a tree, took it and threw it in a creek.

And several times for 'being late'. Because if I showed up on time, the bullies would be waiting. Great choice eh? Beaten or beaten? Which do you want?

 

[Liar]

But I do have to agree with y'all on one thing.

Assault with a deadly weapon?

 

[cantdog]

All authority is illegitimate.

 

[Liar]

All authority is illegitimate.

Except mine.



Damn, wasn't I supposed to not reply in this thread?

 

[Guest]

All authority is illegitimate.

Oh look, honey, an anarchist. How quaint.

 

[cantdog]

I learned it at my father's hands. He thought he was teaching a different lesson.

In family contexts as well as any other, violence is still the first refuge of the completely incompetent. The state has no business horning in, either, because their own authority is misused and prostituted every fucking minute by one or another of their many swaggering minions. You are looking at a free man. Your authority is every bit as irrelevant as anyone else's.

And I'll tell you how to raise your kids, if you ask nicely.

I left home years ago. Nobody gets to pat me when I'm good, and nobody gets to disapprove, especially that way, when I'm not. I felt the same at twelve, and made it stick. The old man is dead. Killed himself by refusing dialysis. I had long since forgiven him, but I never again loved him. May you who smash your loved ones off the furniture suffer similarly.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

What complete bullshit. Each kid is different. Some NEED to be spanked, it's the only way to get their attention. I have 5 kids. There is one that I have never spanked one time in their entire life, and another that I've spanked on many occasions.

My dad used to blister my ass with a belt, and you know what? I deserved it every time he did it. That belt was the only thing I would respond to back then.

I hope this guy sues someone and wins. A parent has to retain the right to discipline their kids in a manner that works for the individual kid.

I won't even go into the assault with a deadly weapon part of it. The idiocy there is self explanatory.

 

[BlackShanglan]

The vast majority of the generation before us got physical dicipline as a part of their upbringing. The next generation, due to factors that I can elaborate on later if you wish, did not get physical dicipline (as in spanking, slapping and such).

Pray do elaborate. I'm curious what happened to make such a drastic change so quickly.

 

[Liar]

Pray do elaborate. I'm curious what happened to make such a drastic change so quickly.

Public debate, on a scale seldom seen. It was started and fuelled in Sweden in the early 70's (I think, can check up the actual time) by politicians from a major part of the political landscape and beloved cultural icons with impeccable ethos. Astrid Lindgren perhaps being the most internationally known.

Their campaigning and debating against any kind of violence against children, and the attitude change among new parents the following years has been called the most significant doxa change in modern history. It was only after polls showed a vast majority being against physical dicipline that a law making it illegal was passed.

It was the first such law in the world, and our Nordic neighbors Norway and Denmark were close to follow.

Today Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Iceland, Israel, Croatia, Lituania, Romania, Sweden, Germany, Ukraina and Hungary also have similar laws. And believe me, there is nothing wrong with the kids there.

 

[minsue]

Public debate, on a scale seldom seen. It was started and fuelled in Sweden in the early 70's (I think, can check up the actual time) by politicians from a major part of the political landscape and beloved cultural icons with impeccable ethos. Astrid Lindgren perhaps being the most internationally known.

Their campaigning and debating against any kind of violence against children, and the attitude change among new parents the following years has been called the most significant doxa change in modern history. It was only after polls showed a vast majority being against physical dicipline that a law making it illegal was passed.

It was the first such law in the world, and our Nordic neighbors Norway and Denmark were close to follow.

Today Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Iceland, Israel, Croatia, Lituania, Romania, Sweden, Germany, Ukraina and Hungary also have similar laws. And believe me, there is nothing wrong with the kids there.

Thems fightin' words...

 

[BlackShanglan]

Liar's description reminds me something of the effect of the MADD campaign in the United States - or at least where I grew up. I was at a party some months ago in which a much older man was laughing about how he used to get completely out of his skull and drive home - swearing, as is apparently required, that he drove better drunk than sober. The difference in reactions between the older and younger listeners struck me. Everyone younger looked embarassed and awkward. It was like listening to someone laugh about smacking his wife. What could one say?

Shanglan

 

[minsue]

Liar's description reminds me something of the effect of the MADD campaign in the United States - or at least where I grew up. I was at a party some months ago in which a much older man was laughing about how he used to get completely out of his skull and drive home - swearing, as is apparently required, that he drove better drunk than sober. The difference in reactions between the older and younger listeners struck me. Everyone younger looked embarassed and awkward. It was like listening to someone laugh about smacking his wife. What could one say?

Shanglan

I think the same is true for bullying in a way. One doesn't hear the stories of youthful "exploits" involving terrorizing some poor classmate, usually accompanied by laughter, the way I recall hearing them from many adults when I was a kid. The couple of times I've heard someone my age try to tell such warm, fuzzy tales now, they're usually met with stony silence and remarks about how fucked up that is. And such remarks are not always by me, even!

 

[Liar]

Another example there of how our values can and do change, often much faster than we think. Ethics is a journey, folks. Better hang on.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think the same is true for bullying in a way. One doesn't hear the stories of youthful "exploits" involving terrorizing some poor classmate, usually accompanied by laughter, the way I recall hearing them from many adults when I was a kid. The couple of times I've heard someone my age try to tell such warm, fuzzy tales now, they're usually met with stony silence and remarks about how fucked up that is. And such remarks are not always by me, even!

Yes, I agree. I hadn't thought of it, but that is something else that seems to be undergoing a tidal change. Personally, I wonder if it isn't partly this: all of the "geeks" and "brains" who were once sneered down upon are now the people with major economic and social power Nothing helps along a change in ethics like a change in finances.

There is hope yet. It advances in fits and starts, and yet at times it really does seem to be advancing. One only has to look at the literature even of 70 or 80 years ago to see what an astonishing change in racial relationships has really taken place. It's far from over, one hopes, but the difference in what was acceptable public speech and political policy is absolutely astonishing. Every now and then, an idea really gets lodged in the little monkey brains and does something useful. I myself have see a 12-year-old correct her mother's racist language and leave the room when she used it again. There is hope yet.

Shanglan

 

[minsue]

Yes, I agree. I hadn't thought of it, but that is something else that seems to be undergoing a tidal change. Personally, I wonder if it isn't partly this: all of the "geeks" and "brains" who were once sneered down upon are now the people with major economic and social power Nothing helps along a change in ethics like a change in finances.

There is hope yet. It advances in fits and starts, and yet at times it really does seem to be advancing. One only has to look at the literature even of 70 or 80 years ago to see what an astonishing change in racial relationships has really taken place. It's far from over, one hopes, but the difference in what was acceptable public speech and political policy is absolutely astonishing. Every now and then, an idea really gets lodged in the little monkey brains and does something useful. I myself have see a 12-year-old correct her mother's racist language and leave the room when she used it again. There is hope yet.

Shanglan

Sadly, I must admit I think Columbine had something to do with the attitude change, too. It caused a public dialogue about bullying that I don't recall seeing before. Schools suddenly had to create specific policies that, at least around here, they hadn't had. Previously, ignoring all but the most violent was the norm in the schools I attended. Now the administrators had parents and press wanting details about what they did to prevent bullying. Unfortunately, I get the instinct impression those same parents weren't asking the question of themselves. Baby steps, I suppose.