Personality modification

[Desdemona]

I was surfing around looking at various bdsm checklists a few weeks ago and saw one that listed personality modification as an option. I've been mulling this over for a while because its nothing I have any experience with. I have some questions about it and I'm interested in your thoughts.
1. If you don't like someone's personality, why enter a relationship with that person?

2. It seems to me that it would be exceedingly hard to achieve significant changes in someone's fundamental personality and possibly, the odds of success are small. Why take on a challenge that may have little hope of succeeding?

3. What would make you consider attempting this if you are a dominant? If you are submissive, is this something you would like to experience?

4. Has anyone here ever played with this? If so, how did it turn out?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[entitled]

i had somebody try this with me. Once. It did NOT work out well.

It started out as changing small things - habits that made up little parts of my basic personality, ways of speaking, etc. - and built up gradually into Him basically saying that i needed to be exactly like somebody He had been seeing years before. It was at that point He found out exactly how many four-letter words i had learned from all my military friends.

i personally would not recommend this to anybody, especially if it's to be done to a major extent. If you were to enter a relationship where you didn't realize that's what the other person had in mind (like this one was) it would probably be best to get out of it as quickly as possible.

Just my couple of cents worth.

 

[Desdemona]

entitled, that is pretty much the image I had in my mind. It sounds like you had a crummy experience and I'm glad you got out of that relationship.

I'm wondering if there is a positive spin someone can put on personality modification. I'm sure there must be since people do it.

 

[morninggirl5]

The only way i can see this working is if the change is something the sub desires anyway. If the sub is a packrat and truly desires to change, then maybe the extra incentive and possibility for consequences would be enough to result in a change.

Otherwise, i can't see personality change being real or even possible.

 

[Desdemona]

MG, I never thought about changing habits as being personality modification. I guess you could make an argument that being a packrat is a personality trait rather than a habit. If so, then I can see your point.

 

[Netzach]

I question the need for it. If I don't like core things about a person's character, yeah, I should probably pass them over rather than try and modify.

If someone wants to quit smoking or lose weight or stop buying 2 of everything on sale, I can play around with that, though.

 

[Pure]

Well, would a change as in "taming of the shrew" count?

J.

 

[Arden]

In general, I doubt that you can change the color of a horse, nor it's personality. You can break the horse's spirit and change it's behavior to please you, but it's something learned. Very few horses will change to please you without some sort of positive motivation. If the horse sees nothing gained, it will revert back to it's natural personality and behavior.

In some ways, couldn't it be said that you voluntarily modify your personality somewhat in learning to serve your dominant or master?

How many of us grow up saying 'Yes Sir,' or 'Yes Master'? Is kneeling at someone's feet a part of growing up that I missed somewhere? I'd also guess (yes, an assumption) that most of us didn't like pain or punishment when young. Many of us rebelled at being controlled, but it helped us to grow up if we used what we learned wisely. Some now welcome control, pain, punishment, and enjoy different patterns of speech at times, in private or public.

I'm going to take the stance that personality modification may tie in with behavioral changes that you make to please your dominant, knowingly or not. Maybe it comes so gradually that it isn't perceived as a modification of personality, just a normal progression of the relationship as it may.

On the extreme end, I've seen many websites produced by slaves, where the slave does not speak in what most would consider normal speech patterns. I don't attempt to try to understand because I don't know the purpose of the website. I don't know if they made the site for themselves to educate new submissives, or if was done in a manner pleasing to their master. Nonetheless, it makes it difficult for me to follow when reading.

I will say, though, that I am grateful for those here (involved in a master/slave relationship) that are able to post in their own voices. Voices we can all understand. For those of us that are relatively new, understanding is everything.

 

[Howling_Ire]

Well psychologicly speeking (wow! a class i stayed awake for in college) your personality is pretty much set into stone after you reach a certian age (i believe around 15-16) and with this the basic characterists of what make you, you ie thoughts, oppenions, what makes you happy, what makes you sad, are for the most part set into stone...and basicly unchangeable unless that person goes through some major kind of trauma or life altering event. Ususaly these are things like rape, cancer, car accidents, ect ect ect

now thier are personality traights that are changeable, like for example biteing your fingers nails, or how clean you keep your house. these can be changed fairly easily (in comparsion) with various forms of reinforcment, or just an effort of will on the part of the human being...

this said i can see why exactly personality modification could be rather an upsetting idea... and i could also see where exactly a BDSM relationship could lend towards traumatiseing a submissive into changeing thier basic peronsality..however i cannot, nor would i venture to guess if this is a healthy or safe thing to do to another person. expecialy because i could see where the results might not be to pleaseing to either party in the long run (lets face it most of us are not licensed psychologists and could not see where they were going awry in such a facet)

i would also say that i really don't understand why you would become intametly involved with someone who's personality you have a driveing desire to change. sure we all have those little quirks in our SO's that we would love to change, and probably would if given the chance...but in the end that's what makes them special...and part of why we love them, and if the behavor isn't harmful then rarely is anything done about it.

well that's my 2 cents anyways

 

[bunny bondage]

trying to change someone? bah, that's WAY too much work. be perfect when you get here or don't bother coming at all!

 

[BlondGirl]

Originally posted by bunny bondage be perfect when you get here or don't bother coming at all!

I thought that was the whole point of personality modification!!!

 

[FungiUg]

I was surfing around looking at various bdsm checklists a few weeks ago and saw one that listed personality modification as an option.

1. If you don't like someone's personality, why enter a relationship with that person?

[...]

4. Has anyone here ever played with this? If so, how did it turn out?

Er, I think your #1 point sums up my attitude. I will attempt some behavioural modification with training, but if I don't like someone's personality, I just won't go there. And if I do like their personality, why would I change it?

I do see it happening though. One recent one which worried me was a very jealous Dom hooking up with a very flirty submissive. Instant recipe for disaster (I think), and I don't think it's really possible to change someone's basic personality like that. And if you don't like her flirting... why hook up with her?

Anyway... I'm very much not pro this. Not at all. In fact, it scares me.

 

[lovetoread]

Tis very hard to change who you are. But behavior modification is possible, even without your permission.

Mostly its a matter of survival.

I think its a matter of someone having an image of what they think of as the way a person should be and nothing is more important than that image.

 

[Desdemona]

I'm just stopping by on my way to work. Thank you all for your thoughtful, reality based (and some humorous) observations.

I'm still interested to see if anyone has a positive spin on it.

 

[Merelan]

I am sticking my nose in to add a few things. Some of what you have said isn't personality but behavioral. Let's define the two, for my sake at least???


behavior:

# [n] manner of acting or conducting yourself
# [n] (psychology) the aggregate of the responses or reactions or movements made by an organism in any situation
# [n] (behavioral attributes) the way a person behaves toward other people

personality:

[n] the complex of all the attributes--behavioral, temperamental, emotional and mental--that characterize a unique individual; "their different reactions reflected their very different personalities"; "it is his nature to help others"


Okay, so behaviour is one aspect of personality. A part of the whole. Part can change. Okay. Got that.

Then I searched further and found a few links, alot of them, but these were the ones that made the most sense and worked with what I think you were asking.



http://allpsych.com/personalitysynopsis/behavior_modification.html

http://www.innerself.com/Behavior_Modification/ (found this in searching for you, like the site.)

a bit more high falutin in it's language, but still has good definitions....

http://newsmen.net/management issues/person1.htm

Then, it is ironic really how these things happen, I was watching a biography of Alfred Hitchcock last night and they brought up the personality changes in his movie Vertigo.
Remember that one? Jimmy Stewart loves a woman who dies, maybe. he finds another who looks alot like her. Over the course of the movie he changes her into the "other" woman. (All the other side line plots aside.) At the end it fails. The true woman comes out. He could change her behavior, her mannerisms, her looks, but her self was there.

I know, I know, the movie is way more complicated then that.

Okay go with My Fair Lady. Same thing. He is teaching her, trying to actually mold her into what a society lady. To get rid of the Eliza person and replace it completely. He fails, and realizes he can't. You can't take all the aspects and replace them. It is too ingrained, maybe even genetic the way we are and why we do what we do at times. The flower girl will always be there.

Ever sit and wonder how you and your siblings can be so very different? raised the same, same things taught you, same enviorment. But you have different genes, experiences etc.

I guess if you were able to completely wipe someone clean, mind and soul you could change the personality completely. But not sure that the older one would come out again, eventually.

Then again, remember One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest? Jack Nicholson's character is given a complete lobotomy. I guess you could say that is personality modification. But I don't think it counts.

I know these are extremes, I know it probably isn't what you are looking for. But you started this by asking and one thing led to another.

Thank you for my findings. Even if they aren't what you wanted, I share them.

I found a few pages I will keep, and you got this old brain working.

Thanks. Good luck.....

 

[Pure]

Q: Does therapy ever cause modification of personality?

If yes, then given that a number of dom/mes liken their efforts to therapy, they may be 'modifying personality'.

Do relationships ever cause modification of personality? Have you ever said, "She used to be so confident, but after a few years with that $%^& she's afraid of her own shadow." (or in the reverse order) ?

There can't be much debate on whether 'the core personality' really changes'; but some apparently non-core traits/practices/behaviors seem to.

 

[Ebonyfire]

What would make you consider attempting this if you are a dominant?

I spend months talking to subs who are petitioning to be Mine. Why would I spend so much time weeding out those who do not suit Me if I were gonna try to "mold them"?


If a sub does not have a personality that is compatible with Mine, I pass him by.

 

[Ebonyfire]

If you are familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy, he classifies all human behavior into the cognitive, psychomotor, and affective domains.

Cognitive= knowledge and information related behavior

Psychomotor= hand to eye, mental to muscle, (doing related)

Affective= attitudes, feelings and value related behavior.

Personality resides in the affective domain, which is hardest domain to affect from the outside.

If there are any trainers or teachers out there, you know that the first two domains are mostly all you can affect with any certainty.

However, one does find that if the first two become successful, many times affective behavior will follow suit.

In short, it is awfully hard to change a personality, unless the person wants to themselves.






That education degree comes in handy sometimes!

 

[Quint]

Yeesh. The way I normally differentiate between behavior and personality is that the first is explained by what I do, the second by what I am. That's my totally unWebster definition and colors my response accordingly.

I frequently am too unmotivated to clean the house. That's a behavior. But I am also the sort of person who is generally unmotivated to do what is necessary. That isn't my entire personality, but it IS an aspect of it. And it's one I'd like to change. T isn't going to change it for me but he's certainly going to help me change it myself by giving feedback of all kinds.

How's that, Des?

 

[Pure]

Eb://If there are any trainers or teachers out there, you know that the first two domains [cognitive and psychomotor] are mostly all you can affect with any certainty. //

Not really. In fact Bloom and those following the taxonomy explicity consider and envision changing attitudes [the third domain], though they lie one level up, in the hierarchy. See emphasized portions below.


http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html


The Three Types of Learning

There is more than one type of learning. A committee of colleges, led by Benjamin Bloom, identified three domains of educational activities. The three domains are cognitive, affective, and psychomotor. Since the work was produced by higher education, the words tend to be a little bigger than we are normally used to. Domains can be thought of as categories. Cognitive is for mental skills (Knowledge), affective is for growth in feelings or emotional areas (Attitude), while psychomotor is for manual or physical skills (Skills).

Trainers often refer to these as KAS, SKA, or KSA (Knowledge, Attitude, and Skills). This taxonomy of learning behaviors can be thought of as "the goals of the training process." That is, after the training session, the learner should have acquired these new skills, knowledge, or attitudes.


http://www.humboldt.edu/~tha1/bloomtax.html

Affective Domain of the Taxonomy of Educational Objectives.

The Affective Domain addresses interests, attitudes, opinions, appreciations, values, and emotional sets.
The original purpose of the Taxonomy of Educational Objectives was to provide a tool for classifying instructional objectives. The Taxonomy is hierarchical (levels increase in difficulty/sophistication) and cumulative (each level builds on and subsumes the ones below). The levels, in addition to clarifying instructional objectives, may be used to provide a basis for questioning that ensures that students progress to the highest level of understanding.If the teaching purpose is to change attitudes/behavior rather than to transmit/process information, then the instruction should be structured to progress through the levels of the Affective Domain:

====

Attitude change is more complex and time consuming but it's within the purview of many teachers.

 

[Desdemona]

Eb, I almost put in my initial post that I knew what some of you would say. You were the first that popped into my head with this question because we have discussed your methods for choosing subs.

Merelan, thanks for the links and the definitions. Very interesting reading and I think it helps to clarify the discussion.

Pure, I need to think about your post a bit. I know that in grad school, we talked about affecting attitudes when we discussed change theory and how to effect change within organisations. Part of that includes the affective domain you refer to.

Quint, I'm also one of those who sometimes needs a behavioral nudge. LOL

Everybody, this is a pretty interesting discussion. Please keep it up. I'm enjoying the mental stimulus.

Disclaimer for those who may be wondering: no, Snooze is not trying to alter my personality. I think He pretty much likes me the way I am.

 

[morninggirl5]

If you are familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy, he classifies all human behavior into the cognitive, psychomotor, and affective domains.

Cognitive= knowledge and information related behavior

Psychomotor= hand to eye, mental to muscle, (doing related)

Affective= attitudes, feelings and value related behavior.

Personality resides in the affective domain, which is hardest domain to affect from the outside.

If there are any trainers or teachers out there, you know that the first two domains are mostly all you can affect with any certainty.

However, one does find that if the first two become successful, many times affective behavior will follow suit.

In short, it is awfully hard to change a personality, unless the person wants to themselves.






That education degree comes in handy sometimes!

LOL, and in true pointless education paperwork, there are principals that require objectives in all of Bloom's categories for a lesson plan.



After further thinking about the subject, i think it would be pretty hard for me as a sub to hear from a Dom, "i want you to change this about who you are." It would definitely feel like a complete rejection of who i am.

 

[Pure]

//After further thinking about the subject, i think it would be pretty hard for me as a sub to hear from a Dom, "i want you to change this about who you are." It would definitely feel like a complete rejection of who i am.//

Give the Dom/me a little credit. One does not cause change by saying things have to be different but that they are already in process. Like a therapist or guru or teacher, s/he would say, "You think you are x and y and z, and you don't know it, but that makes you unfulfilled, and at some level you feel a need to change. What you truly are is, in many ways, quite unlike that, and you're already moving toward it in coming to be with me; with your permission I can help bring it out fully."

 

[Arden]

//After further thinking about the subject, i think it would be pretty hard for me as a sub to hear from a Dom, "i want you to change this about who you are." It would definitely feel like a complete rejection of who i am.//

Give the Dom/me a little credit. One does not cause change by saying things have to be different but that they are already in process. Like a therapist or guru or teacher, s/he would say, "You think you are x and y and z, and you don't know it, but that makes you unfulfilled, and at some level you feel a need to change. What you truly are is, in many ways, quite unlike that, and you're already moving toward it in coming to be with me; with your permission I can help bring it out fully."

We don't all seek to be modified to the perfect image of somebody's dream submissive.

As Popeye said, "I yam what I yam." Do all dominants believe that submissives are truly unfufilled? Sounds like ego talking to me.

I don't know that I buy into the concept of a dominant knowing you better than you know yourself. They have to gain that information from the submissive. Only a submisssive that knows themself can honestly give that information. Anything else is pure speculation on the part of the dominant, is it not? If you honestly think that you, as a dominant can alter someone's personality to your liking, aren't you setting yourself up for failure?

(No offense meant to you personally, Pure... I was only reacting to your words.)

 

[Pure]

But Arden, we've all seen people go through personality changes (maybe not at the core) in both relationships and in therapy; not to say in the military, in seminaries.

I was not speaking as a dom, but as an experimenter.

I have no trouble with the idea that some doms might know some subs of theirs rather well, better than s/he knew herself; all the while depending on the sub for info; that is the same position as a teacher, trainer, or therapist.

regards,
J