Personal space

[TheEarl]

It's a typically male thing to do (at least, American male). I've had men do that to me in an office setting on more than one occasion. I have no idea what makes them think it's appropriate. They sure as hell wouldn't come up behind another man and start rubbing his shoulders for no reason.

Off the Bush massaging Merkel thread. I can't fathom this kind of invasion of personal space being remotely acceptable, from my upbringing as an Englishman. As I said in the other thread, some of the stereotypes are true; when you're with an Englishman/woman who's a stranger or whom you don't know that well, you look, don't touch. A handshake is the most that you're allowed.

When amongst friends, there's obviously not the same formality, but you wouldn't dream of an Englishman laying hands on any part of an acquaintance, or even remotely invading his personal space.

Is this a peculiarly English trait, or are there other nations that don't touch unless very friendly?

The Earl

 

[kendo1]

Scots are the same.

ken

 

[TheEarl]

Scots are the same.

ken

That's an oddity in itself, the Scots and English agreeing on something!

The Earl

 

[minsue]

I did generalize in my original post, there are definitely gentlemen in the states that also wouldn't dream of doing that. It's simply happened to me more times than I can count. But, it's also partially my own fault because I never asked that it not be done, I just put up with it because I had to work with these people and it was easier. It did always creep me out though and I had to fight my instinct to slap their hands.

Being "touchy-feely" does seem to be more acceptable in the US. Somewhere along the lines, it seems to have become ok to touch people you barely know. I'm not sure why.

 

[TheEarl]

But, it's also partially my own fault because I never asked that it not be done.

This statement alone leaves me in a transatlantic haze of confusion. You feel that you need to request not to have a random guy grab your shoulders? Just placing a hand on someone's back is considered pretty damned rude over here.

The Earl

 

[kendo1]

That's an oddity in itself, the Scots and English agreeing on something!

The Earl

I'm half English.

Ken

 

[minsue]

This statement alone leaves me in a transatlantic haze of confusion. You feel that you need to request not to have a random guy grab your shoulders? Just placing a hand on someone's back is considered pretty damned rude over here.

The Earl

LOL

No, I don't think I should have to ask. But I at least should have made the request after the fact to "please take your hands off me and don't do that again." Maybe if I had, they'd realize how unbelievably inappropriate it was. Maybe no one ever told them?

 

[Huckleman2000]

Where I used to work, we had to go through an online sexual harassment training course. This sort of thing, while it may not really be sexual harrassment in Bush's circumstance since they don't share an employer, is certainly the sort of thing that would be judged very inappropriate, and behavior to be avoided.

I passed the quiz at the end on the first try! HR was notified, and I got a gold star in my permanent file.

 

[minsue]

Where I used to work, we had to go through an online sexual harassment training course. This sort of thing, while it may not really be sexual harrassment in Bush's circumstance since they don't share an employer, is certainly the sort of thing that would be judged very inappropriate, and behavior to be avoided.

I passed the quiz at the end on the first try! HR was notified, and I got a gold star in my permanent file.

Good boy!

I'm waiting for other American women to respond. I'm hoping I'm just an anomaly and have "touch me" stamped on my forehead or something.

 

[Munachi]

well the definition of personal space and what is an invasion of it definitely varies according to culture, and also within the same culture for different groups of friends, subcultures, etc.

in germany, traditionally, i'd say we aren't very touchy-feely at all, greeting would usually be a handshake, or just a nodding of the head - but due to people traveling and people from other countries living here, especially in the cities it is becoming more common, for example, to greet with two kisses on the cheeks.

but anyway, i have a lot to do with latin americans, and i definitely notice differences there. while i got used to greet people with kisses on the cheeks if introduced to them in friend-like circumstances, i still don#t like it when someone i don't know well gets too close... for example - in the hostel where i work there is a currently a cuban guest, and a few days ago, while i was standing in the kitchen putting dishes in the dishwasher i think, he came in, put one arm around my waist, and kissed me on the cheeks. i felt taken aback - to me that was very innappropriate, since we aren't friends, or introduced to each other by friends, but rather i am someone who works at the hostel where he stays. so even though we talked several times i feel the need to keep distance. from his point of view, it might have been normal behaviour though, i guess.

 

[cloudy]

I've been in the same situation as Min, and just as many times.

The weirdest thing I've ever been subjected to is random strangers feeling free to touch my belly when I was pregnant.

 

[minsue]

The weirdest thing I've ever been subjected to is random strangers feeling free to touch my belly when I was pregnant.

That, too! And I've also had pregnant women I just met try to get me to touch their bellies. It's all very strange.

 

[kendo1]

Anyone need a hand?

 

[Nirvanadragones]

Good boy!

I'm waiting for other American women to respond. I'm hoping I'm just an anomaly and have "touch me" stamped on my forehead or something.

Have you been on the tubes on the London underground? It can get very crowded and it's not strange to practically stand on top of someone to keep your place. I know that is different, because it's not by choice- still, in my experience, sometimes men (in particular ) take advantage of that.

Me? I'm from Africa. We hug everybody. (seriously - I respect people's space, and will not overstep a boundary, but i like touch. ) We were writing learning material at work about 3 months back on sexual harrassment and the laws/ common practices. My team was laughing hysterical on more than one occasion when we decided we have to start implimenting the rules at the office. We're a bunch of strange people together - friendship is common between us. After this so called humorous incident I did feel a little reflective as I wanted to ensure we were all comfortable with our situation. We talked often after this, and we still do.

Still, strange things happen and we don't always know how people really feel about things until you're part of a unexpected sexual harassment case.

 

[LadyJeanne]

It's inappropriate in the US, particularly in a work setting. Like Min and Cloudy, though, it's happened to me. Sometimes it's a friend/colleague, in which case I don't get particularly upset, though if we're more colleagues than friends, I will stiffen.

Sometimes it's strictly a colleague/manager, someone who I do not have any kind of warm relationship with, and then I find it very offensive. I tend to stiffen, and then get up and walk away or move to another part of the room. This doesn't happen too often, though.

 

[Couture]

It's inappropriate in the US, particularly in a work setting. Like Min and Cloudy, though, it's happened to me. Sometimes it's a friend/colleague, in which case I don't get particularly upset, though if we're more colleagues than friends, I will stiffen.

Sometimes it's strictly a colleague/manager, someone who I do not have any kind of warm relationship with, and then I find it very offensive. I tend to stiffen, and then get up and walk away or move to another part of the room. This doesn't happen too often, though.

Well....at least he didn't snap her bra strap.

Hey, he's pretty religious. Maybe he was trying a little "laying on of hands"

 

[rgraham666]

So far as I know, we Canadians tend to be pretty stand-offish with personal space. I wouldn't dream of touching someone, especially a woman, unless there was a close personal relationship.

We shouldn't be using President Bush as an example though. People like him are not common, Thank the Lord. Bush is a rich man's kid. He's never had to care about rules or limitations of any sort. I doubt he understand the concept of either this late in his life.

 

[elsol]

Don't touch me.

I almost decked a girl (a really hot one too) for doing the massage thing to me.

It's 1/10th cultural, I'm latin... and 9/10th a mental, social development thing.

Arm's length minimum, please.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[3113]

I'll repeat here what I said in the other thread: George overstepped bounds even in an American context. HOWEVER, most Americans are far more relaxed and demonstrative (depends on which part of the country you're from, and what kind of family). Witness the fact that Clinton, a nice southern boy, tended to hug a lot.

Bel, Mal and ABG and I met in person for the first time today; we all exchanged hugs, and if ABG had put his hands on my shoulders and given my shoulders a rub, I wouldn't have blinked. Then again, he is a massage therapist. I've had guys who I knew and was on friendly terms rub my shoulders. Sometimes as ways of showing friendship, sometimes because they were hitting on me. You can kinda tell the difference. Friendship shoulder rubs are fine unless the guy isn't very good at it (or worse, thinks he's good but doesn't know what he's doing!).

I sincerely doubt George knew what he was doing in any sense of the word.

To get back to the question there are four things involved here:

1) cultural/regional upbringing. Each culture has their own personal space and comfort with touching. As an American from a certain part of the country, I'm fine with hugs. There is, in fact, a new joke thanks to the popular show "Entourage"--the Hollywood agent on the show gets into a disagreement with an actor's friend and manager. When they agree to let by-gones-be-bygones, the agent says to the guy: "Hug it out, bitch!" and embraces him. Instead of a handshake to establish peace, they hug. That's the current cultural norm in certain parts of the country.

Bush is from a certain part of the country where touching is more acceptable than in other parts of the U.S. I'm sure George would protest that he meant it as a friendly gesture.

2) American upbringing: I was discussing this with some Brits today. If you're in England, you can travel to Spain or France--that's an average Englishman. Europeans travel about and they learn there is a wider world out there and that they need to deal with other cultures. But few Americans ever get out of America. It's too expensive. And wealthy ones, like Bush, get special treatment when they do travel abroad. They don't have to adjust. Bush has never had to respect other cultures--and his cowboy mentality assures him that he's from the superior culture. He's president of the most powerful country on Earth--and to Bush that means all other countries should learn to adapt to him...and he doesn't have to adapt to anyone.

3) Family upbringing: This has been mentioned. It has to do with Bush's wealthy background, the kinds of jobs he's held, the fact that he's surrounded by "yes men." I really don' t think he was told "NO!" nearly enough in is life. He takes for granted that he can do what he feels like. So he offers this friendly gesture and takes for granted that it will be welcomed. No one else he's touched has probably ever objected to it, right?

4) Personality: I'm sure George would protest that he's not a sexist, but he clearly is. He takes for granted that he can put his hands on a woman because he is an important male. There are a lot of males like that in the U.S. They're not consciously aware of what they're doing and they'll get all offended when the woman says, "take your hands off me!"

"Whoah!" they'll say, "I was just being friendly! What a bitch." They believe that they are confiring on the inferior female some sort of gift or benediction by touching her. And they're amazed that she took offence.

Understand, I don't for a moment think George thought about it; he just did it, and expected it to be accepted. He'd probably say, in private, "Those Europeans have got to lighten up about that personal space shit."

 

[ibhard]

I've lived all over the south and on the west coast in the US and it's strange to invade someone's space like that wherever I've been. You're likely to get slapped with sexual harassment charge for a friendly 'shoulder rub'.


*gets the willies*

 

[English Lady]

I'm probably more relaxed than your average english person about personal space. It may be partly that we're a touch more touchy up north (pressing a hand against the back (gently) of a person you're letting in front of you in a queue for the bus for example is not uncommon) and I'm generally fairly laid back. Anything more than a gentle hand on shoulder/back would make me uncomfortable, but it never happens.


I'll hug friends, kiss my mum or my dad on the cheek (never used too, only since we don't live together has it become the norm) and I don't mind any level of contact from a child, hug, touch, kiss -their kids, and it's cute

It's funny, at church we share the peace and it's a handshake and "peace be with you"and some people are very uncomfortable with the handshake. At catholic retreat centre I used to go to we also shared the peace, but it was all big hugs and kisses. Which took some getting used too, but became a highlight of the week. It'd be funny at the easter retreats seeing the new people adapting to hugging strangers *chuckles* a little awkward at first, but by the end of the week, everyone would be hugging all over the place *L*

I like my personal space, though. I just guess it's a little smaller than other peoples zones of comfort.

 

[MaeveoSliabh]

A lot of it also depends on setting. In a work environment? Touch me and die, for the most part. We meet up somewhere after work, just to go out for a while? Bring it on.

People have actually noted the difference and commented about it. Yes, hugs and backrubs and those types of things are more common and a lot easier with people that are well known. There are people that WILL NOT come within touching distance without ending up with a black eye. And there are the occasional few that end up in a big bear hug with a smooch on the cheek the first time we meet. It just depends.

 

[Guest]

vella theory of touch.

america is so much larger than the uk...we have more space and consider personal space 'owned'...come into the inner circle of space and there must be reasons for it.

eldest daughter had a german skating coach who was always in my personal space. ALWAYS. it wouldn't have been quite so bad if she partook of a tic tac now and then.

work is always different. different rules apply to touch in a litigious society and one used to the mind-set of 'if you touch me, there must be a reason.'

i am a touchy-feely person and noone comes to the love shack without being hugged, that being said, i would never dream of hugging someone from work.


i love repeating what's already been said. redundancy rules!

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

...and Mexicans are lazy and Japanese are hard working and Iranians are extremist.

Anyone have a bit of a touchy spot for the profiling, here?

 

[AngeloMichael]

When I was a teenager I worked in this shopping center that had a Chinese restaurant. I also had doughy arms. I was absolutely terrified whenever I encountered the owner of the Chinese restaurant. His eyes would always light up and he would walk directly toward me and grasp on to my upper arm with both hands and begin kneading it...*shudders*. I wasn't old enough to know that I could say "Stop touching me or I'll kick your fucking ass!" He was an adult and I was taught to respect my elders and so I endured this whenever it happened but avoided the guy like the plague. Still creeps me out when I think about it.