Perfect grammar?

[Brutal_One]

This is not intended to be yet another grammar thread despite the title and I am almost certain I know what the responses will be to the question I will ask. How important is it to you to have perfect grammar in your submissions.

I had this comment .....

OMG THE GRAMMAR

Not sure who is proofreading your submissions, but this one had so many grammar, format, and punctuation errors it was distracting. I like the storyline, but it is marred by all the issues.



I have 24 submitted chapters with an average of just over 4.2 so it’s not as if the story is setting readers alight but for some they are enjoying it. I personally am happy with the overall story plot and how it is developing and the character development and relationships that go with it.

I do not use grammarly but rely on auto correct with writing using Pages on iPad.

I find my main grammar issue is using the past tense when primarily write in the FP POV present tense. I can normally pick this up in the drafts and / or review when submitting.

I don’t use an editor and would not want to pay for one. Possibly there are editors that would enjoy the editing practice.

The series is probably at a decent point to break. I could either have an editor edit or do my own editing to correct these issues. My concern is this may take a month or two. As ever time is the issue. For the followers that enjoy the series to date maybe this break may not be advisable. For example I don’t expect the edits to have much in the way of an impact in the overall rating for each chapter.

As ever comments and suggestions on this aspect of the writing and editing from a grammar perspective welcome.

Brutal One

 

[oggbashan]

It might be an idea to test one of your stories with the free version of grammarly.

If that doesn't show any serious issues then just ignore the comment.

 

[29wordsforsnow]

How important is it to you to have perfect grammar in your submissions.

To me, very. But probably that's an inherited issue of having a teacher of a language in my family - it certainly rubbed off. Anyway, as a reader there's always this little voice asking, "How come, this obviously missing comma wasn't spotted?" My personal numero uno from my reader-only times is 'trough' vs. 'though' which I've seen quite a lot since no spell-checker would shout about it.

You do want to make your readers sigh and moan, but not from frustration, do you?

I don’t use an editor and would not want to pay for one. Possibly there are editors that would enjoy the editing practice.

You might want to ask in the Editor's Forums for one - from what I saw, clicking through your published work, those are around 1k to 2k words? That's about an hour of work to proofread, so not too much - or send me a PM

Recently started using Google-Doc which has a sometimes nice working spell/grammar checker and convinced an author, using an iProduct too, to use it for the editing process. Strangely, on bad days it notices less mistakes than on good ones... does artificial intelligence suffer from dementia too?

 

[Jada59]

I am guilty of changing tenses. I always have been. I do make errors. I think I only have one story with no errors whatever. I did use an editor. Someone kindly did it for me for free. That one is not my highest rated story but I think that has more to do with the genre than anything else.

I can forgive an error or three. But when a person keeps making the same error again and again, I get annoyed.

I once read a story where the author used no question marks whatever. And there should have been at least 12. I lost count. Things like that cause me to stop reading.

If I see too many errors on the first page or three, I'll also stop reading.

 

[Jada59]

I tried Grammarly and hated it. I can't remember why though.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think a Literotica author must aspire to "perfection." Few stories are perfect. I don't think any of mine are, although I'm pretty knowledgeable about grammar.

Those who criticize your story probably don't demand perfection, either. Without having read the stories my guess is that you could improve the grammar and make them more pleasurable for your readers by doing so.

I recommend using, but not wholly relying upon, Grammarly or a similar tool.

While I don't believe perfection is needed, I do believe that all Literotica authors would do well to make sure that the following meet certain minimal standards:

Spelling: I use American English spelling standards, but British spelling is equally valid here. You should be consistent.

Punctuation: The biggest problem is with commas. Too many comma splices, too many run-on sentences, and inconsistent comma use in dialogue.

Grammar: Grammar doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be good. Bad grammar, without question, spoils an otherwise good story. The most important thing in grammar is to understand what a sentence is and is not. A sentence is a complete statement with a subject and a verb and always ends in a period.

Tense: The one rule is to be consistent.

Point of view: The one rule is not to shift haphazardly between different points of view. If the story is from Maria's point of view, then she can't know what Jose is thinking, unless it's a story about mind reading.

Dialogue: This area might be the biggest offender, for me, as a reader. I think every Literotica author who struggles a bit with writing mechanics should read one or more of the many articles here about how to handle dialogue. You only have to master about ten rules, maybe fewer, to get it right. Bad dialogue throws me right out of a story.

A good general rule for every writer here -- one I try with some, although not perfect, success to follow -- is to listen and learn. If you are getting frequent comments about your grammar, then they're probably deserved, and you probably would do well to do something about it. My grammar is pretty good, but I get criticisms about misspellings and in particular about my choice of a word, here and there. I appreciate this criticism even when it's nitpicky, and I try to learn from it.

Use tools to meet and to improve your standards. I use Grammarly, MS Word's grammar and spell checker, several online and physical dictionaries and thesauruses, several basic grammar guides, the Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk & White's style guide, and some others. I also have the novels of certain "go-to" authors handy on shelves nearby, so if I'm at a point in a story where I'm thinking "How should I do this?" I can pull their books off the shelf and see how they do it. Usually, when I do that it's for questions of how to handle dialogue or internal dialogue. You don't have to use so many tools but it helps to have and to use some.

Good luck!

 

[ElectricBlue]

You don't need perfection but you do need competence - it's better to be half-way good at the basic technical stuff than half-baked. As Simon says, nail the basics, identify your own tics and eliminate those. Use tools if you need to, and refine your self-editing techniques. And pay attention if people repeatedly pull you up on grammar and punctuation - they can't all be wrong.

 

[Voboy]

Perfection is boring. I am not a computer.

I am, however, a person who grew up reading a lot. Good books only, not childrens' books; I skipped that stage. I internalized all that without even knowing, so ever since I was in like second grade I've always just "known" what a sentence should look like. How a paragraph should flow. How words ought to run together.

I find I have trouble expressing myself when people ask for help in how to improve their writing, because I really don't know. "Go back in time and get a Tolkien boxed set when you were six, then work your way through" sounds like unhelpful advice, though it's what worked for me. Perhaps it's not too late, even now, to start reading more.

I make mistakes, of course, and sometimes they're deliberate. Writing in FP gives me the freedom to write in a more colloquial, less stilted style than many writers end up with. But I've found that even when reading official documents at work, say, you can still tell a good stylist from a person who used Grammarly.

 

[visioneer]

Good suggestions all. Another tactic I don't think anyone mentioned is reading your story out loud, or better yet, listening to it being read. Our ears are finely tuned to catch grammar stumbles and awkward wording. I use the speech function on my computer. It is far from a perfect imitation of a human reading, but good enough to catch issues I may have missed.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Good suggestions all. Another tactic I don't think anyone mentioned is reading your story out loud, or better yet, listening to it being read. Our ears are finely tuned to catch grammar stumbles and awkward wording. I use the speech function on my computer. It is far from a perfect imitation of a human reading, but good enough to catch issues I may have missed.

I think the automated voice may be better in some ways because it defeats our tendency to hear what we expect to hear.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I don't think a Literotica author must aspire to "perfection." Few stories are perfect. I don't think any of mine are, although I'm pretty knowledgeable about grammar.

Those who criticize your story probably don't demand perfection, either. Without having read the stories my guess is that you could improve the grammar and make them more pleasurable for your readers by doing so.

I recommend using, but not wholly relying upon, Grammarly or a similar tool.

While I don't believe perfection is needed, I do believe that all Literotica authors would do well to make sure that the following meet certain minimal standards:

Spelling: I use American English spelling standards, but British spelling is equally valid here. You should be consistent.

Punctuation: The biggest problem is with commas. Too many comma splices, too many run-on sentences, and inconsistent comma use in dialogue.

Grammar: Grammar doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be good. Bad grammar, without question, spoils an otherwise good story. The most important thing in grammar is to understand what a sentence is and is not. A sentence is a complete statement with a subject and a verb and always ends in a period.

Tense: The one rule is to be consistent.

Point of view: The one rule is not to shift haphazardly between different points of view. If the story is from Maria's point of view, then she can't know what Jose is thinking, unless it's a story about mind reading.

Dialogue: This area might be the biggest offender, for me, as a reader. I think every Literotica author who struggles a bit with writing mechanics should read one or more of the many articles here about how to handle dialogue. You only have to master about ten rules, maybe fewer, to get it right. Bad dialogue throws me right out of a story.

A good general rule for every writer here -- one I try with some, although not perfect, success to follow -- is to listen and learn. If you are getting frequent comments about your grammar, then they're probably deserved, and you probably would do well to do something about it. My grammar is pretty good, but I get criticisms about misspellings and in particular about my choice of a word, here and there. I appreciate this criticism even when it's nitpicky, and I try to learn from it.

Use tools to meet and to improve your standards. I use Grammarly, MS Word's grammar and spell checker, several online and physical dictionaries and thesauruses, several basic grammar guides, the Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk & White's style guide, and some others. I also have the novels of certain "go-to" authors handy on shelves nearby, so if I'm at a point in a story where I'm thinking "How should I do this?" I can pull their books off the shelf and see how they do it. Usually, when I do that it's for questions of how to handle dialogue or internal dialogue. You don't have to use so many tools but it helps to have and to use some.

Good luck!

I have used many of these. I have another thread about Grammarly, which I just got a few days ago. Like all programs, it isn't AI - yet! It insisted that "up on" should be "upon." Thus it doesn't replace human proofreading, but it helps. It gives me more clues about commas than I would catch myself.

The professionals in book publishing could get it close to perfect - or they used to, anyway. On here, we do our best.

I don't know if this is good practice, but I have once or twice used the internal thoughts of someone outside the main POV. It didn't seem that jarring, but it would be best not to do that.

 

[TxRad]

How many comments do you get that complain about the grammar as compared to the comments that don't mention it one way or another? Like someone said, perfect grammar is boring and in most cases, fake sounding in fiction. For non fiction, who cares unless you write non fiction.

Most readers wouldn't know good grammar if it bit them in the ass. Like I said, it sounds fake to them. Fiction has no set in stone rules. If it is readable, write it. Grammar or the lack of it is a tool, use it.

Grammar Nazi's be damned.

 

[Brutal_One]

Thanks all. Checking out a test of grammarly as a test in particular for the commented work (only the once) makes sense. It certainly can’t hurt. I do in general keep tense consistent and make appropriate use of dialogue tags. Question marks and general punctuation (use of commas and semicolons as appropriate and avoiding long sentences and paragraphs. I think I can suffer from sentence fragments but mainly in dialogue where it can be how some characters speak. It is not all noun and verb perfect sentence structure but I guess being aware of it being a choice rather than an error makes it more likely even if the purist may still balk.

Do grammarly as a test and maybe an editor for some of the longer pieces makes sense. I think taking the time too to do my own critical edits and resubmits may make sense as the time in the arc is right. At least I would have a better body of work from the technical writing aspect. I know it will have little if any impact on the rating.

Thanks all for the great suggestions.

Brutal One

 

[Voboy]

Thanks all. Checking out a test of grammarly as a test in particular for the commented work (only the once) makes sense. It certainly can’t hurt. I do in general keep tense consistent and make appropriate use of dialogue tags. Question marks and general punctuation (use of commas and semicolons as appropriate and avoiding long sentences and paragraphs. I think I can suffer from sentence fragments but mainly in dialogue where it can be how some characters speak. It is not all noun and verb perfect sentence structure but I guess being aware of it being a choice rather than an error makes it more likely even if the purist may still balk.

Do grammarly as a test and maybe an editor for some of the longer pieces makes sense. I think taking the time too to do my own critical edits and resubmits may make sense as the time in the arc is right. At least I would have a better body of work from the technical writing aspect. I know it will have little if any impact on the rating.

Thanks all for the great suggestions.

Brutal One

You also need to remember to close out your parentheses when you open them.

 

[Brutal_One]

You also need to remember to close out your parentheses when you open them.

I saw what you did there .

Yes even in forum posts I do like to observe half decent grammar. Use of parentheses though and which type is another subject but yes open and close is the 101 - much more important in maths of course. Oops.

Brutal One

 

[Brutal_One]

Tried grammarly

Well as in taking the advice and can report back. I used my first chapter one and the comments on chapter 10 that were provided.

First thing to note is I think grammarly is a pretty fine tool. My main criticism in the very brief pilot is the pricing I think is too expensive. To have the full features it need a subscription that even at an annual cost I think works out too expensive. Fine if I was plugging into everything I ever write but that is not what my Lit writing is.

Having said that it does a very good job of picking up a lot of good points. For me there are a few missing commas for example. A lot of words should be hyphenated (this was a surprise but can agree). Some two words should be one word (again agree but not necessarily a big issue). Tautology comes up a few times which I can understand and it’s a learning thing.

Other decent points it ranks both clarity and engagement. Was pleased to see it report that my chapter 10 was very engaging so that means it hits the right spot with readers I guess. Still not my highest scoring chapter but I have a few 5’s but not from very many voters so I am not reading too much into that anyway.

There is a premium feature which has categories like punctuation in compound / complex sentences; intricate text, word choice, passive voice mis use and incomplete sentences but as I generally write shorter pieces (chapter 10 was 2 lit pages long) there are not many of these. I assume out of 100 but the version of chapter 10 checked was overall score 72.

It can certainly teach you what to watch out for the clarity and engaging rank is pretty good as this is a free assessment anyway.

If I was a full time writer and using it for more than my casual Lit work I may get it but even then I think the subscription approach just grates with me, I’d rather pay a one off price for the features but these days most software is going the SAAS route. I can stomach office 365 just but not for every other piece of software I want to buy in particular when I am not using but paying for it every day.

Still a useful tool for learning and getting some instant feedback on the clarity and engagement of the writing along with the pure grammar flags too.

Brutal One

 

[Brutal_One]

Well as in taking the advice and can report back. I used my first chapter one and the comments on chapter 10 that were provided.

First thing to note is I think grammarly is a pretty fine tool. My main criticism in the very brief pilot is the pricing I think is too expensive. To have the full features it need a subscription that even at an annual cost I think works out too expensive. Fine if I was plugging into everything I ever write but that is not what my Lit writing is.

Having said that it does a very good job of picking up a lot of good points. For me there are a few missing commas for example. A lot of words should be hyphenated (this was a surprise but can agree). Some two words should be one word (again agree but not necessarily a big issue). Tautology comes up a few times which I can understand and it’s a learning thing.

Other decent points it ranks both clarity and engagement. Was pleased to see it report that my chapter 10 was very engaging so that means it hits the right spot with readers I guess. Still not my highest scoring chapter but I have a few 5’s but not from very many voters so I am not reading too much into that anyway.

There is a premium feature which has categories like punctuation in compound / complex sentences; intricate text, word choice, passive voice mis use and incomplete sentences but as I generally write shorter pieces (chapter 10 was 2 lit pages long) there are not many of these. I assume out of 100 but the version of chapter 10 checked was overall score 72.

It can certainly teach you what to watch out for the clarity and engaging rank is pretty good as this is a free assessment anyway.

If I was a full time writer and using it for more than my casual Lit work I may get it but even then I think the subscription approach just grates with me, I’d rather pay a one off price for the features but these days most software is going the SAAS route. I can stomach office 365 just but not for every other piece of software I want to buy in particular when I am not using but paying for it every day.

Still a useful tool for learning and getting some instant feedback on the clarity and engagement of the writing along with the pure grammar flags too.

Brutal One

Edit: I could see me using grammarly in it’s free version at the point I am ready to submit in Lit. As I know that is my final draft I can paste into grammarly and edit according to the missing grammar points. I’d get the benefit of the grammar check but not the better writing suggestions e.g word choice etc but for what would make my submitted stories better this would work.

I can now decide which submitted chapters to edit and resubmit if I think there is merit in doing that. For all anyway the clarity and engagement rank would be worth doing for all.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

My grammar is by no means perfect, but I do try. I will also say that, while I can pass over the odd error, a story with a lot of spelling and grammar issues becomes annoying, like a musician playing a lot of flat notes. I generally don’t finish ones like that.

(Obviously, dialogue has a different set of rules.)

 

[KeithD]

I take comment complaints about grammar with a ton (tonne) of salt. Commercial fiction is quite loose and tolerates (encourages) a lot of sentence fragments and such. Most readers here never really went between high school essays in their grammar education.

Beyond that, there is no such thing as perfect copy. Still, when I reread some time later stories of mine that have gotten through my scrutiny (I have certificates in editing) and that of my editor, I'm shocked by the technical and spelling errors that have survived. I tend, then, to just read through this sort of thing in my pleasure reading of what others have written.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Grammar... no one, not even English Professors, speak perfect grammar.

... perfect grammar is for narration, not dialog.

I've had complaints that my characters grammar is atrocious. I just laugh at them. People don't talk in perfect constructed sentences. They surely don't.

 

[yowser]

Perfectionism

Perfectionism is an enemy in the creation of a story. Yet in the second (final?) phase its pursuit is often valuable. As a writer, I cannot imagine a state in which I could not conceive of doing better, and grammar as a brick-and-mortar construct, is something in which improvement is almost always possible, smoothing the reader's way, providing clarity and precision, enhancing the reader's understanding and enjoyment. It doesn't hurt to aim for it.

It is perhaps worth revisiting George Orwell's Six Points of Writing (all of which he violated himself in the service of Principle 6):

1. Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

2. Never use a long word where a short one will do.

3. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

4. Never use the passive where you can use the active.

5. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

6. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

visioneer's suggestion to 'read aloud' helps greatly on the last point.

 

[Emirus]

I think if you are a writer, or aspiring to be one, an ego is essential otherwise why would you think you are capable of writing something others will think worth reading? It’s if/when the ego is so large you cannot conceive there could be any improvement that you have a problem. That’s when you write totally for your own pleasure not taking the reader into account.

I leave comments on most of the stories I read and often my comment includes the words, “despite the errors I’ve mentioned they didn’t spoil my enjoyment of the story.” There is a difference between that story and the one which has so many technical problems you simply don’t have the patience to continue reading it.

I don’t use any aids to improve my grammar and I’m certainly not an expert/perfect although I do try to get it right, and I’ve always had confidence in my spelling, as I assume do many others. My punctuation has improved, partly due to the assistance of some people on this site, and partly due to my own desire to improve. If others wish to use Grammarly, or something similar, that’s up to them and it’s not my place to criticise but I would rather not rely on, or use the assistance of, an artificial aid. I’d rather stand or fall due to my own efforts.

The way people speak isn’t perfect and the dialogue should reflect that but the same doesn’t apply to the rest of the story. If it does that’s just laziness, an unwillingness to get it right, and a lack of desire to improve. Having said all that nothing is ever perfect. The person who believes they are perfect is an idiot because only an idiot would believe that are perfect.

 

[SamScribble]

Why would anyone, on this site or any other, be considered to be a grammar expert?

 

[SimonDoom]

Why would anyone, on this site or any other, be considered to be a grammar expert?

Whether or not anyone is an expert is irrelevant. One can tell from reading others' stories and from what others say on these boards that some people know grammar much better than others do, and they have some useful advice to give about it.

The use of the word "perfection" in this thread is an unhelpful distraction. The real point is that many Literotica authors could improve their stories -- and improve reader response to their stories -- to some degree by improving their grammar.

 

[Emirus]

Whether or not anyone is an expert is irrelevant. One can tell from reading others' stories and from what others say on these boards that some people know grammar much better than others do, and they have some useful advice to give about it.

The use of the word "perfection" in this thread is an unhelpful distraction. The real point is that many Literotica authors could improve their stories -- and improve reader response to their stories -- to some degree by improving their grammar.[/irus


I don’t see how using the word “perfection” in this thread is an unhelpful distraction. If you are a realist you know you will never be perfect but that doesn’t stop you from striving to be perfect or, to put it another way, be the best you can. Produce the best story you are capable of writing. The top people in the world of sport realise that which is why they still continue to put in hours of practice although they know they will never get everything right. Which is the point I was making in my previous comment.


The person who believes they are perfect is an idiot because only an idiot would believe that are perfect.Does one consider themselves an idiot who believes they are perfect or someone who tries to be the best they can?