Per BiBunny's suggestion, a religious belief thread

[teknight]

Hopefully this will answer JM's question: "How the faith thing happens." I'll add: how the faith thing doesn't happen, 'cause, why not?

I recall praying as a kid, but I can't honestly say that I felt very strongly about it. It was more of an OK chore. Now, I started praying after I started attending mandatory (from the state, since I was in public education) religion class once per week. But I still didn't go to church (except for weddings and the like).

<off topic> Frankly, I find churches back home to be meek and downright ugly, as most churches (in my hometown) look like this:
http://www.infolitoral.ro/english/worship/adormirea2/biserica_adormirea2.jpg They just don't say "GOD WAS HERE" to me. Frankly, the only time I felt like belief might be worth something was in the cathedral in Strasbourg:http://www.bornemania.com/civ/gothic_architecture/strasbourg-ariel-view.jpg, which, you'll admit, is a different animal altogether. But, by that point, I was already an atheist, so I wasn't that moved.</off topic>

I got most of my knowledge of religion from the 9 years of state mandated religious education, which was definitely focused (almost exclusively) on Romanian Christian Orthodoxy, but did do a pretty fair job of outlining Christianity's evolution from Christ onwards...although I'll admit that the US canvas of available Christian churches sort of baffles me a bit. I mean, how did the Methodists come about? What about Jehovah's witnesses? And how is being "non-denominational" different from being agnostic? (nvm, just answered myself).

Now, in terms of the household I grew up in- both my parents were card carrying members of the communist party- not because they believed that dogma, but it was the thing to be if you wanted to be anybody in communist Romania. That meant that they never really said a lot about religion. I remember my mom telling me that the pope was shit (I'm paraphrasing) once when I was young and saw him on TV. This was...before I'd started school, so I didn't know any better- I thought he was a relevant religious figure. Turns out that the Christian Orthodox put an anathema on the bishop of Rome during the Great Schism of the church in 1081 AD, so, as far as we're concerned, not only is he not a relevant religious figure, he's going to hell for claiming he's God's representative on Earth (the papacy "evolved" from the bishopric of Rome, based on Jesus telling Peter that he was the stone upon which Jesus would build his church (apparently, that's Matthew 16:18. Thanks, Google! ). Back to my parents: they never opposed my religious education (much good that would have done them), nor did they overtly encourage it, although, they both believe in God....I've noticed my mom becoming slightly more religious after she got cancer and heart bypass surgery, but that doesn't mean she's read the bible, or that she goes to church more than a couple of times per year. But she does go to church now, where before she didn't use to.
Long story short- my household never was very religious as I was growing up.

I just found myself not believing and actively questioning the stuff that was taught in class and its relevance to real life. Now, for more context, Romanian society isn't all that religious either (beyond weddings, baptisms and funerals) so I've never had anyone tell me on a street corner that I'd be going to hell for not repenting.

I've only run into that in the States, where such "poor salesmen" show up on campus...maybe every other week, preaching hellfire and damnation and other such crap. Frankly, I'd think they'd do a better job "selling their faith" if they presented the "God is love" angle, since you get more flies with honey than vinegar.
Regarding my US religious experience, one defining moment came when I was watching CNN one day, and whatever show was on had two guests: some pastor/preacher representing some church or broader religious organization (i wanna say he was baptist...) and the president of some atheist organization. That was the first time I encountered the notion that some people believe that, because I'm an atheist, I'm immoral or amoral, and no better than an animal. I am deeply offended by that notion, because it's blatantly wrong.


To put in words that religious folk might get, I've never felt divine inspiration, I've never felt "touched by God", nor do I see the need for that.

That's my little show and tell. Now over to you:

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, first of all, thanks for starting this thread, Tek. Secondly, my ego thanks you for putting my name in the title.

Now, my beliefs. TL;DR = about an equal mix of liberal Christian and Hindu thought plus a little Buddhism thrown in for good measure. This is why I call myself spiritual, but don't identify as anything else. Read on if you want the long version.

First a little preliminary: As I know I've said here about a zillion times before, I grew up in a fire and brimstone Southern Baptist country church. I attended regularly with my parents (usually with my mother, but my daddy would come fairly often, too). I'd already stopped believing in the hellfire and damnation stuff by the time I was 12 or so.

My grandfather (mother's dad) died when I was 10. He and my grandmother had 3 kids, my mother and her two sisters. The youngest sister, who was already a little...unhinged, went more or less batshit crazy after Granddaddy died because he wasn't there to keep her narcissism in check. My grandmother, a raging narcissist in her own right, fed off this and kept the drama stirred up.

Eventually, the youngest sister, who you will never see me refer to as my aunt, completely broke off from the rest of the family, after forcing my grandmother to divide up the land Granddaddy had left and getting her part. Ruthless youngest sister managed to turn the entire church against my mother and her other sister, the one whom you will occasionally see me refer to as my aunt. My grandmother fed off the drama, of course, and finally, my mother and aunt and their respective families stopped attending church there. (Yes, Narcissistic Personality Disorder runs in my family. Fucking inbred backwoods hicks.) I was maybe 13 or 14.

In spite of the drama and the bullshit and the utter hypocrisy, I never stopped believing that there was a God. I wasn't interested in organized religion, and I rejected pretty much all the teachings of the Southern Baptist church. I think the only thing I retained was the belief that you can have a personal relationship with God/Jesus.

I started reading some books when I was 11 or so that featured Hinduism heavily. (My mother would've died had she known that; all she knew was that I was reading books, not what was in them.) Not too long after that, I started researching Hinduism, and all the holes I saw in what they preached in the SB church started making sense.

I've visited Primitive Baptist churches and attended the Methodist church near my parents' house when I was 16 or so, but nothing ever really clicked the way Eastern thought did. I was also fascinated with how heavily Christian mythology borrowed from Hindu mythology.

I believe in God. I believe Jesus, Krishna, and various other important people in other world religions were all avatars of the same God, who sent these incarnations to different people in different parts of the world at different times because it was what they needed, so to speak.

I believe in reincarnation. I believe time is circular, not linear. I believe in karma. I believe we're all evolving and making our way through our various lives on our way to moksha (nirvana with a reunion with God/Jesus/Krishna/etc.). I believe we're all going at our own speed, and we all need to live many lives to learn all the lessons we need to learn to ultimately reunite with God.

And that's why I'm tolerant of other religions, of agnostics, of atheists. I think we're all at different points on our paths, and, in the end, we'll all find God. If I'm wrong, well, at least I didn't waste my life hating people over something that didn't exist, anyway. *Shrug*

I don't believe in Hell in the Christian sense. I think there probably is a place of punishment, of separation from God, but I think it's only temporary. I think we only go there long enough to contemplate what we've done wrong in our last incarnation, and when we're ready to be reborn again without repeating those same mistakes, we're released. A spiritual time-out, as it were. And the spiritual time-out place is probably a place our souls exile themselves to in order to reflect upon our past mistakes, rather than a place we're sentenced to go for being bad or not believing.

Ok. I think that's more than enough for one post. I'll be glad to discuss this with anyone who's interested, but I'll go ahead and say that I have no "proof." These are all just things I feel with my heart, rather than understand with my head.

ETA: Thanks again for this thread, Tek. It's kind of nice to stop and reflect on what you believe, and what better way to do that than to tell other people about it? If they ask--and only if they ask--, of course.

 

[graceanne]

Oh, this is a what do you believe thread. lol I couldn't figure out what you all are looking for.

I'm a Christian. I know, duh. If asked my main beliefs boil down to what Jesus stated were the two greatest commandments 'love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your soul' and 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

 

[teknight]

This is actually one of the area's that I've discovered I have a great deal of difficulty discussing. Sure I can talk about my beliefs, which evolve gradually anyway, but already here I have diverted myself away from talking about my spiritual experiences, which is what I started out to do.

Suffice to say; unlike teh knight I count myself blessed in that I do feel that I have been touched by "god." Several times through my life. Similarly, I have had encounters with a variety of spirits/ energy entities, which I consider to be lesser portions of "god" in much the same way that I see each of us as lesser portions of "god" (though the majority of "spirit thingies" seem to be a bit smaller portion than us). My dealings with them generally involve only a little energy work, and prayer.

I wish I could go into greater detail about some of those instances and or dealings. I have tried very hard in the past, and went completely awry.

I can kinda see why that might go awry. Frankly, as I don't beileve in ghosts/etc., I'm somewhat...shocked by your comment. Not to belittle your experience nor deny its occurrence, but I'd say it was all in your head...

 

[graceanne]

I can kinda see why that might go awry. Frankly, as I don't beileve in ghosts/etc., I'm somewhat...shocked by your comment. Not to belittle your experience nor deny its occurrence, but I'd say it was all in your head...

I've seen 'ghosts'. And considering the number of people in the world that say they've seen ghosts, it makes little sense to say that because you haven't seen one that means they don't exists.

 

[Xelebes]

I'm an agnostic/atheist. Somewhere in the between there.

I was raised in a variety of churches as my parents often got in conflict with the churches they got involved with. My mom, somewhat with Aspergers, was a ranter and couldn't handle being in churches but insisted on trying to go to churches. My dad is a born-again.

The first church I remember going to was the Mennonite church in the Mennonite village in Saskatchewan. Very nice place, actually. Not really offensive except for some of the rules: no dancing being the most glaring example. My mom couldn't handle the small town as everyone knew each other too much.

So we ended up in Edmonton, going to the Mennonite Brethren church there. It was alright. Never really got the whole spirituality thing but the community there was nice. My parents left it.

We then joined a Southern Baptist church - a very small one at that. Only three families attended and by the time we left, it grew to five families. Differences over leadership caused my parents to look elsewhere.

We then joined an Evangelical Free Church. Most disorienting church I ever went to. I never met anybody there - really. The community was... I have no idea. It wasn't creepy but I just never got to meet anybody there.

Then we went to the Presbyterian Church and went there for a year. People made more effort of knowing us there which wasn't bad. My dad got kicked out for his antics there.

And then never went to another church. Before the Mennonite church, I apparently went to another Presbyterian Church and a United Church.

There were significant trials in my life where I was forced to seek spirituality to help out my life and I never got anything from it. Nothing. The trials just came even worse with worsening despair. It was then I became neglecting towards spirituality and connections with God and it got better. Went to a couple youth groups after that and then just fell out entirely with it.

Now, just no belief in spirituality. *shrug*

 

[teknight]

Having shared only a single and obscure detail of those experiences; Fuck you.

I appreciate your attempt at blunting your rudeness, but this most certainly does belittle my experience, and I suspect is at the crux of my difficulty with sharing such deeply personal experiences. I think part of it may be that it is a grave diservice to the entities involved, "god" included, to share in a setting where remarks such as yours are nigh certainty.

I tend to turn to my spirituality more when I have been despressed and alone a great deal, therefore it could certainly be argued that I am less stable during those times. Given that basic knowledge, there are three counterarguements to any of my experiences to which my only real response is "fuck you."

1) You make this shit up for self validation.
2) Your crazy, so of course it's all in your head.
3) Nasty spirits are drawn to the unstable, therefore whatever experiences you had were the work of "dark forces."

You've had lots of religious education, I'm sure you've heard over and over, you don't prove "god," "God" requires faith.

After some of my experiences, I could lose faith and still believe. To some extent I have. "God" proved itself to me, however, so belief and faith are seperate questions for me.

I prefer not to preach (particularly on religious matters) and I certainly do not prostyletize, and that too may have something to do with my difficulty in sharing.

For a short version of what I have faith in, reread bi-bunny's post, It's not much different.

What I said was "it was all in your head." What I should have said was this: I don't believe in ghosts. They don't exist. However, that doesn't mean you didn't experience what you experienced, and, no, I'm not calling you crazy. There are so many things about the human mind that we don't understand that could be responsible for such experiences.

I could have expressed myself better. I didn't assume you were making this shit up. I don't think you're crazy, and, obviously, I wouldn't believe in nasty spirits anymore than I believe in nice ones (except for Casper, the friendly ghost. I've seen him on TV). The only thing I said, and I apologize for not wording it better, reinterpreted the mechanism, not the experience nor your subjective validity. However, you came into this awfully guarded already, so, you set yourself up to be insulted.
Thanks, but no thanks, on the fuck offer.

 

[teknight]

I've seen 'ghosts'. And considering the number of people in the world that say they've seen ghosts, it makes little sense to say that because you haven't seen one that means they don't exists.

See my post above for some edification on the matter. And, what's more, the mere numbers argument doesn't prove anything. Let me put this another way: a lot of people don't think Obama was born in the US. However, their belief doesn't change the place where he was born, does it?
Democracy (the power of large numbers) cannot change facts. Mind you, I'm not saying, you're wrong and making this stuff up, just pointing out a flaw in your chosen line of argument.


Empirical studies have been done to determine what brings about ghost sitings. One such finding is that perceiving inaudible ultrasound makes you perceive ghosts.
Also, 19 hz will also make you "see ghosts".
Ghosts in a church? Infrasound.
Grace and stag, that's why I chose the vague phrase "it's all in your head", by which, again, i didn't mean "you're nutters" but "the human mind does some strange shit".

 

[KoPilot]

I'm a deist. I believe in a creator, but I believe that the universe IS the creator; I'm a big fan of the "cosmic watchmaker" line of thought:

In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. (...) There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. (...) Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.

I don't believe in a god with human characteristics; that is clearly a product of human insecurity over the ages. When times are tough or life is scary, of course it makes sense to want to have some old, bearded, white man up in the sky to talk to. Praying never did make me feel better though, (raised catholic by my mom, christian scientist by my dad, and later protestant by both of them separately) and when I broke off to explore other modes of thought, like paganism, it took me a year or two to realize that other methods of prayer and similar religious meditations didn't do much more for me either.

I'm not sure where I'm going to go when I die, and if I don't go anywhere and just cease to exist, that'll be fine too... it'll make me want to accomplish things more in life and spend more time with loved ones.

PS- I believe in ghosts and spirits and stuff.

 

[teknight]

I'm a deist. I believe in a creator, but I believe that the universe IS the creator; I'm a big fan of the "cosmic watchmaker" line of thought:



I don't believe in a god with human characteristics; that is clearly a product of human insecurity over the ages. When times are tough or life is scary, of course it makes sense to want to have some old, bearded, white man up in the sky to talk to. Praying never did make me feel better though, (raised catholic by my mom, christian scientist by my dad, and later protestant by both of them separately) and when I broke off to explore other modes of thought, like paganism, it took me a year or two to realize that other methods of prayer and similar religious meditations didn't do much more for me either.

I'm not sure where I'm going to go when I die, and if I don't go anywhere and just cease to exist, that'll be fine too... it'll make me want to accomplish things more in life and spend more time with loved ones.

PS- I believe in ghosts and spirits and stuff.

WOW! Some guy posted on lit in 1802?

ETA: as for the ghost stuff:
Let me rephrase what I said earlier: once science (and good empirical science, not pseudoscience) fully understands how the mind works, and how various phenomena impact it (such as low frequency noise giving you the impression of ghosts), and rule all that biological stuff out, if there are still ghost sightings (that can't be accounted for) then I'll buy "spirits." Until then, I say "there are no ghosts, as there is no good, solid, valid scientific proof for it." What's more, It's not the same as "proving God", especially as the above mentioned three examples show how biology can account for ghost sightings.

 

[KoPilot]

WOW! Some guy posted on lit in 1802?

ETA: as for the ghost stuff:
Let me rephrase what I said earlier: once science (and good empirical science, not pseudoscience) fully understands how the mind works, and how various phenomena impact it (such as low frequency noise giving you the impression of ghosts), and rule all that biological stuff out, if there are still ghost sightings (that can't be accounted for) then I'll buy "spirits." Until then, I say "there are no ghosts, as there is no good, solid, valid scientific proof for it." What's more, It's not the same as "proving God", especially as the above mentioned three examples show how biology can account for ghost sightings.

Yeah! That guy is OG~

No, there's no scientific evidence to say either way, but I've had plenty of personal experiences. Back when I was a kid, and having to deal with my mom's horrible second marriage, that was when most of the "stuff" happened. I saw weird fuckin' shadows on walls when I was going to the bathroom in the middle of the night, had things whispered in my ear as I was laying in bed playing my game boy, seen motion-sensor lights turn on by themselves when I could barely get them to turn on when I spent 5 minutes dancing and jumping around in front of it.

My mom saw and heard things too.

I think all of those phenomena were undoubtedly linked to the energy that was being produced by the living occupants of the household. It was tense, it was negative, and it was thick enough to cut with a knife.

When they got divorced, though, and he moved out, they stopped happening for the most part. What I do encounter now is completely benign and doesn't scare me anymore, like hearing heeled footsteps cross the hardwood living room floor. (It's so distinct when it happens, that you can pinpoint where the "feet" are with every step they take.)

I wouldn't be so quick to discredit people's claims... though, I wouldn't be quick to accept them either.

 

[JMohegan]

Hopefully this will answer JM's question: "How the faith thing happens." I'll add: how the faith thing doesn't happen, 'cause, why not?

I was raised without any religious traditions of any kind, and have never experienced the spark that would make me embrace one.

I refer to that spark as being smacked with the magic fairy dust stick, because I have no idea how it happens. I don't know why I have not been smacked with it. I just know that I have not.

 

[teknight]

I wouldn't be so quick to discredit people's claims... though, I wouldn't be quick to accept them either.

I've mentioned this in other threads, I'll mention it again. I'm not out to be loved, I'm out to be right (by which I mean having some sort of empirical basis for my claims).
I'm quick to reason and I'm quick to question claims that don't jive with my understanding of the world. Worst case scenario, my understanding of the world is shit, and I need to learn more. I'm willing to accept that. Howver, it takes empirical science, and nothing else to change that particular paradigm of mine.

Again, that doesn't mean, I'm calling you a nut, or a liar, or an attention seeker. What I'm saying is that science hasn't shown "people's energy" to work that way, that I'm aware of.

Did you read the links I posted about the infrasound?

 

[Netzach]

I have never seen supernatural stuff, experienced anything completely outside the realm of some kind of scientific knowledge, whether mainstream or slightly non-mainstream or felt protected by any force other than sheer dumb luck. I don't think I'm particularly wonderful to the point where I warrant protecting more than "one step to the right and I'd be dead" me.

Therapy and school did more for me than any conversation with any spiritual leader, I'm naive enough to think that social justice is the highest value without having it explained to me by anyone on saturday or sunday. I'm completely immune to the idea that "shit isn't fair" as if we're not supposed to make it more so. The abdication of our responsibility because some supernatural being is more awesome than we are is a kind of moral laziness - and people like lazy.

The Bible is a really nice work of literature, but the adherents are like rabid Star Trek fans. Seriously, the mechanics of this are not that important, you are missing the point. The points are things like "be good to one another" or "the role of liberation" or "the role of contrition and acceptance of one's error"

If the world is created by something other than itself it's definitely a committee. You can always tell design by committee.

If I'm wrong and it's one sentient all good Biblical being, it has to be a woman - seriously, a day off? Creation through the usual means requires a day off, sneezing or spooging it all out and you're on to something else in two minutes.

 

[chy_girl]

I consider myself a non-denominational agnostic with pagan leanings. In other words, my beliefs nearly parallel Bunnie's only instead of leaning toward the eastern religions, it's paganism with various concepts of energy work and meditation borrowed from the east.

The Christian church was a major factor in my life until I was around 20. Then I started to see the flaws in the dogma and recognize some of the larger ill treatments that my fellow Christians were placing upon the "unsaved masses" as well as those in the church who were considered less than. So I opened my eyes and started seeing my own "proof" of god or the universe or whatever name one wants to give it.

When I started looking for the higher power as opposed to a deity, it gave room to accept and believe some of the more non-mainstream experiences I've had.

My beliefs may not technically be a religion, but they manage to speak in a language my heart and soul can understand. That's the important thing, in my opinion.

What I said was "it was all in your head." What I should have said was this: I don't believe in ghosts. They don't exist. However, that doesn't mean you didn't experience what you experienced, and, no, I'm not calling you crazy. There are so many things about the human mind that we don't understand that could be responsible for such experiences.
*snip*

Let me reiterate what gracie has already pointed out - just because something isn't in your realm of experience does not mean it isn't true. It simply means it isn't something contained within *your* realm of experience.

 

[FurryFury]

I was raised in a very religious, restrictive environment. I completely believed and embraced it, was preaching as a kid and was the earliest baptised at my church.

Until my parents started falling apart in dramatic and often violent ways in fifth grade. Then I was set free to explore more of the world for myself. I liked it. I've never looked back. Now I call myself a freethinker.

FF

 

[laceandcogs]

I am a Christian. Though there are very many others out there who claim to be, their behavior and their words mark them as anything but. I don't apologize for my faith, but I am sincerely sorry for the way others who share it behave. (It's a little bit like the BDSM community, I think- there are always some Doms and subs out there that make the rest of us wince and say "Yeah, about that guy...")

I believe in social responsibility.
I believe that if one of us is cold or hungry or poorly treated, then all of us have a job to do until it's better.
I believe in extending kindness to everyone, not just the ones you like, not just the ones who will notice.
I believe in God, but I do not believe he has every detail of your life planned and ready for you- get out there and work for it! Your mother may have brought you soup in bed, but your mother didn't have 8 billion other kids to worry about.
I believe in treating each and every other human being with respect, love, and fairness.
I have a personal relationship with God and I believe everyone does, no matter what they call Him or how they choose to engage with Him.
I believe in gay rights, a woman's autonomy over her body, and dedicated and relentless social action to prevent and repair the ravages of poverty.
I believe in the power of the rosary and the Our Father and the Hail Mary and the Latin Mass and the feasts and ashes, but I think the Pope is kind of a dick and, for all his "smells and bells", just another fallible human being.

In short- find and love God where He is, not where you want Him to be. It's not up to you.

 

[teknight]

Let me reiterate what gracie has already pointed out - just because something isn't in your realm of experience does not mean it isn't true. It simply means it isn't something contained within *your* realm of experience.

You're right. But, and I've mentioned this above, I take everything with a grain of salt, and prefer empiricism over "well, it's happened to me." My realm of experience is limited. I'm aware of this. It does expand, but I don't let everything in, especially not out of some sense of "I will agree with you, so as not to hurt your feelings".

What's more, any personal realm of experience is ultimately irrelevant- as Truth or fact aren't going to be changed by my opinion.

If you're trying to say that I shouldn't dismiss their beliefs as to the veracity of their experiences, I'll point out that I've never said that. I think they experienced what they experienced, I just don't buy the ghost story. Like I said, and I'll say again, let science figure out the human mind first, and how it works. Once we've fully figured that thing out, if there are still unexplained phenomena (apparitions, perceptions, etc, that can't be accounted for by biological/neurological factors), then, yes, I'll accept ghosts. Until that time, I choose the simpler explanation of "your mind was playing tricks on you."

 

[rekane]

and now, respresenting the truly esoteric...

I was raised in the mormon religion. My mother was devout, my father was an alcoholic, which clearly caused a schism in my world. Sundays and some other times were mormon-centric, the rest of the time was filled with drunken rage. Confusing to say the least.

I was a believer. I felt things strongly. I knew god worked in my life and I saw what I deemed evidence of something beyond myself guiding me.

But there were things that I could never get behind. The LDS church is an odd entity. A lot of doctrine and concepts were hard to swallow. Then there was Joseph Smith…I never accepted him as what he was purported to be. Because it claims to be the one and only true church, it is like a domino religion, meaning that if one piece falls, all the pieces do. So I shoved those questions way down, thinking that if I had enough faith, I would come to accept everything.

What kept me in was the undeniable (for me) fact that I felt I was a better person because of the tenets of that faith. Clinging strongly to it gave my life order, which was a welcome relief to the unrelenting chaos at home.

My parents eventually divorced and, shortly after, my mother married a man who was, for outward appearances, upstanding in the insular mormon community. He turned out to be a bigger abuser than my father, which is really saying something. The confusion became even greater.

I was one of those that sold my religion. Because it had helped me in many ways overcome my home situation, I wanted to offer it to people as a way to help them. I didn’t push, I didn’t follow the rules/mandates of the mission, but I had experiences that moved me. I learned much about myself and dealing with others.

Those doubts that I had eventually bubbled up after I had my own family. I saw them struggle with the same things I did. There were no satisfactory answers to my questions. I no longer could attend services without being angry, which wasn’t fair to myself or those around me. I came to a decision which felt as strong to me as any inspiration I had ever received. I made a conscious choice to step away. Leaving was scary and difficult. I was walking away from a clear orderly blueprint into nothing, knowing that my spirituality would eventually be something of my own making. I would lose friends, support systems and my community. But leaving it behind was a huge relief.

There is a smug, self-serving line of thought amongst the faithful LDS that the church/gospel is perfect, the people aren’t and when members commit apostasy (read as: leave the church) it is because of their pride, they were offended by some imperfect person. I had problems with members, my family first and foremost, but it was really some doctrine and the foundation of the church that became burdensome to me.

I don't regret my experiences and I won't deny they happened or how I perceived them. I am just experiencing things in a much different way now. There is a similar, religious-like feeling in my current bdsm activities, but that is for another thread.

Now I am not sure what I believe. I believe in a higher power, but I also, like Tek, believe that the mind is an amazing organ that can produce certain experiences. The heart racing, enlightened feeling that I can’t put into words, but I labeled as “inspiration” or “the holy ghost”, has a physiological origin, stemming from chemicals originating in our brains. Whether it is outside of ourselves, or within us, it doesn’t matter. The experiences happen. Period. And if they guide us to be better people, then that’s a bonus.

 

[00Syd]

I'm an agnostic, which I think is my own small way of rebelling against my mothers brand of rabid (and often very irritating and insensitive) atheism. But I'm also Jewish, culturally anyway, which gives me a sense of culture and community and connection to people, in a way that I think religion might for others.

And I thought I saw a ghost once when I was about 11 or 12, but as I've gotten older my memory of it seems less and less real, and now I'm not quite so sure.

 

[teknight]

It's very tempting to snip tehknight's post up into a hundred pieces and nit-pick every last bit of it. I very nearly did just that.

Instead allow me to better explain myself. I was not trying to put words into your mouth, I was outlining the three counterarguements to my experience that I have a strong emotional response to, but due to lack of scientific evidence, I have no valid arguement against. "Fuck you," is not a valid arguement in my book.

If you're here to make empirical statements about what does and does not exist, you really have no place starting a "what's your belief" thread, as you are clearly not interested in the answer. What does and does not exist beyond our ability to prove is a very inflamatory issue, and by starting with "it's all in your head" (which amounts to the "crazy" arguement) followed by "this is what exists in black and white," (which you cannot prove either, by the way), you are not encouraging discourse on the subject, you are encouraging a flame war. If I thought you actually considered how I might react to your statement, I'd accuse you of fishing for emotional responses, which is generally what I expect from a troll.

Yes, I'm brash. Yes, I should learn to monitor what I want to say, but, frankly, what would come out would be a nicer, less insulting version-but the inherent message would be the same. I admit- I step on a lot of toes on lit. Stella's admonished me, but it wasn't enough. I put my foot in my mouth often, and haven't been able to change that much. Beyond my assholiness, however:

A belief thread cannot encompass empiricism as an end-all, be all?

I have apologized above for using the words "it's all in your head" and explained what I mean by it, did I not?

You're right. I can't prove anything. Frankly, science doesn't prove anything, it disproves stuff (it's how it works, with null hypotheses and the like).

It feels to me like (and if I am putting words in your mouth, I'm sorry, it's my interpretation) you're saying that I should just accept what you said as given and let it be. Sorry, dude, but that's not discourse either. You feel strongly about your experiences. OK. But, for that reason alone, they shouldn't be questioned?

 

[graceanne]

See my post above for some edification on the matter. And, what's more, the mere numbers argument doesn't prove anything. Let me put this another way: a lot of people don't think Obama was born in the US. However, their belief doesn't change the place where he was born, does it?

Yes, but do any of those people say they saw him being born elsewhere? I'm not talking about what people think, cause people believe stuff just cause they read it somewhere, all the time. I'm talking about what people have seen.

For instance, I have never seen a great white shark, but I believe they exist because I know people who've seen them.

That said, if you want this thread to be a safe place for people to talk about their beliefs, maybe you should keep your criticisms to yourself. Questions, groovy. People are not going to be willing to post what they believe if they know that you're going to criticize and/or ridicule them.

 

[teknight]

Yes, but do any of those people say they saw him being born elsewhere? I'm not talking about what people think, cause people believe stuff just cause they read it somewhere, all the time. I'm talking about what people have seen.

For instance, I have never seen a great white shark, but I believe they exist because I know people who've seen them.

That said, if you want this thread to be a safe place for people to talk about their beliefs, maybe you should keep your criticisms to yourself. Questions, groovy. People are not going to be willing to post what they believe if they know that you're going to criticize and/or ridicule them.

Damn me and my use of poor examples.
I don't doubt you've experienced it, however, the mind plays tricks on you. There exist optical illusions. Not everything you see is there. Not everything I see is there either- once, when I hadn't slept for a whole night 'cause I was up studying, as I was walking to the bus stop in pitch black darkness at 6 am, I thought a street sign ahead of me was a rather large person. That's how my mind interpreted what it saw. I got closer, it turned out to be a sign marking the driveway to some residential complex. And yet, I thought I saw a man.

 

[Xelebes]

Damn me and my use of poor examples.
I don't doubt you've experienced it, however, the mind plays tricks on you. There exist optical illusions. Not everything you see is there. Not everything I see is there either- once, when I hadn't slept for a whole night 'cause I was up studying, as I was walking to the bus stop in pitch black darkness at 6 am, I thought a street sign ahead of me was a rather large person. That's how my mind interpreted what it saw. I got closer, it turned out to be a sign marking the driveway to some residential complex. And yet, I thought I saw a man.

Temporary or prolonged psychosis is rarely ever used as a foundation for belief. Temporal-lobe epilepsy is scarcely used as a foundation for belief yet for those who do use it become relegated to becoming oracles and prophets more so than solemn believers. Inspiration is deeply personal and is likely not a byproduct of any aberration in the mind but a means of maintaining existence on the planet.

 

[graceanne]

Damn me and my use of poor examples.
I don't doubt you've experienced it, however, the mind plays tricks on you. There exist optical illusions. Not everything you see is there. Not everything I see is there either- once, when I hadn't slept for a whole night 'cause I was up studying, as I was walking to the bus stop in pitch black darkness at 6 am, I thought a street sign ahead of me was a rather large person. That's how my mind interpreted what it saw. I got closer, it turned out to be a sign marking the driveway to some residential complex. And yet, I thought I saw a man.

Dude, did you listen to anything anyone has said?

This is not a 'tell about your beliefs' thread, this is a 'tell what you believe so teknight critisize it and tell you it's all in your head' thread. You are killing all conversation, because after your comments no one wants to open themselves to talking.

But, heck, what am I thinking? You obviously know it all, and can criticize what people have seen. You were there, right?

And FYI, I've been talked to by 'ghosts'. So bite me.