Paypal Clampdown

[sr71plt]

The on-line e-book store BookStrand has been suspended by Paypal for carrying books that include incest, rape, and/or bestiality until the bookseller purges all of those books from its inventory. Paypal is likely to hit other sites for this too.

 

[Darkniciad]

Paypal does this regularly. That's why I always bring it up whenever it's discussed with respect to anything adult oriented.

They always seem to wait long enough to collect a nice chunk of change in fees first, though.

 

[Anjasa]

Paypal does this regularly. That's why I always bring it up whenever it's discussed with respect to anything adult oriented.

They always seem to wait long enough to collect a nice chunk of change in fees first, though.

Isn't that the worst of it.

Not to mention Paypal doesn't spell out what it means by adult or offensive content so everyone is completely at its arbitrary mercy. Same with Amazon, actually.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't understand where its paypals right to decide this. They do not carry the product they are simple the "middle man" with the money.

As insane as this sounds a friend of mine in New York has an escort he gets together with once a week. He has been her regular for a year now and he now pays her through paypal under services rendered.

As for their "vague" descriptions of whats offensive, that is just like Amazon who has set the standard for doing whatever they feel like because no one has tried to get together to use the one word that seems to work with them "boycott"

Perhaps if the publishers/authors/readers of erotica did what the button pressing "we want porn banned" crowd does and say "if you DON'T" sell erotica we will boycott the site, they might just sit back and say ummm, well okay we'll just stand pat. Sinners have more money than saints and always will.

Never happen though, people get frustrated cry out that its unfair and its censorship, and etc...etc... and that's where it stays.

 

[lovecraft68]

On a sort of related topic, for those of you who do not deal with paypal beyond book or service sales let me tell you there latest scam which is far worse than this and shows what they feel they can get away with.

Two months ago I get an e-mail from Paypal saying they have a new policy. From now on any payment I receive for an e-bay transaction will be held and not released to me for 21 days.

SO I call them and what was explained to me is that this is to protect the buyer (and allegedly the seller although I cannot see how) when you buy something from me and send me my let's say $20 and the additional $4 for shipping thatr money is held for three weeks.

During which time I have to ship your item to you and if you are nice enough to post feedback immediately they MAY release my money sooner.

First off this is like blackmailing the seller with their own money. Trust me if you are an unreliable seller you do not last long on e-bay. If your feedback dips below a certain percentage they will boot you.

The other problem is say you are someone that does not keep a lot of money in your paypal account and you sell a couple of dozen items one weekend. The money is now held meaning you're paying for shipping out of your own pocket.

The thing is, while they are holding your money for the "good" of the buyer where is it? Collecting interest of course.

Think about it. Millions upon millions of dollars flows through e-bay per week.
A few years ago the first part of this scam is that E-bay told buyers they may no longer except checks or cash or M.O.s it has to be paypal (everyone here does know e-bay owns paypal right?)

they made it sound as if, if you accepted other forms of payment other than paypay you could get in trouble. This however is illegal. Currency is currency and it was found out that if it were ever challenged ebay would lose in court. But who is going to do that? But if anyone e-mailed me and asked if they could send a check my answer was sure.

so this is now another part of the scam and I would think also illegal. They are making god only knows how much on interest by holding millions of dollars of people's money for no reason.

I challenged it when I called them. I have been on E-bay for 10 years. In the days of my store I rolled an average of $4-5k through that account.

Even now from home I am still good for $800-$1500 a month depending on how much time I want to put in. But after ten years 10k+ feedbacks I am no threat to screw a buyer.

we went back and forth and I brought up the legality of it. I ws put on hold and after talking to the 3rd "manager" was told this was a misunderstanding they are on ly doing this to newer sellers sorry for the trouble.

No they are not doing it to just new sellers I am in touch with quite a few people on e-bay and they were going across the board. They are banking on everyone saying "Oh, okay" and they are making out. Anyone I know that has challenged it that has been around awhile is getting the "mistake" line and being left alone.

Sadly the majority puts their tail between their legs and says whatever.

If people do not start getting together to start fighting things like Paypal and Amazons "vague" rules freedom of speech and censorship laws will be out the window. And like Amazon they are beginning with things that have an unsavory reputation like incest, rape, and beastie because they will receive little opposition. Then like amazon will eventually it will spread to BDSM, fetish and other things. One step at a time. Next thing you know everyone is in the line for koolaid waiting for the punchline.

So if we're all going to keep our tales between our legs we should really stop posting this stuff and start practicing writing children's books.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just thinking that this will be something Smashwords may have to deal with shortly as they allow anything short of underage and Bestiality.

The way around it for anyone who sells there is that SW gives the option of paying with a paper check, you just have to wait until you have $100 for them to cut it.

If Bookstrand and anyone else is smart they will say okay, lose out on your transaction fees we'll go the amazon route and drop it into your checking account.

 

[Anjasa]

If people do not start getting together to start fighting things like Paypal and Amazons "vague" rules freedom of speech and censorship laws will be out the window. And like Amazon they are beginning with things that have an unsavory reputation like incest, rape, and beastie because they will receive little opposition. Then like amazon will eventually it will spread to BDSM, fetish and other things. One step at a time. Next thing you know everyone is in the line for koolaid waiting for the punchline.

Their actual wording is:

Pornography
We don’t accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts.

Offensive Content
What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect.

Illegal and Infringing Content
We take violations of laws and proprietary rights very seriously. It is your responsibility to ensure that your content doesn’t violate laws or copyright, trademark, privacy, publicity, or other rights. Just because content is freely available does not mean you are free to copy and sell it.

Public Domain and Other Non-Exclusive Content
Some types of content, such as public domain content, may be free to use by anyone, or may be licensed for use by more than one party. We may choose not to sell a book if its content is undifferentiated or barely undifferentiated from one or more other books.

Poor Customer Experience
We don’t accept books that provide a poor customer experience. Examples include poorly formatted books and books with misleading titles, cover art or product descriptions. We reserve the right to determine whether content provides a poor customer experience.

'...about what you would expect'? I wouldn't expect consensual incest, or even rape or beast to be banned considering they're, you know, books of fiction. So my expectations and definitions will differ from theirs.

 

[Darkniciad]

Paypal can get away with it because setting up actual e-commerce is an expensive pain in the ass. On top of that, you have truly sensitive information such as account numbers on your servers and have to beef up security.

Most of the smaller venues will simply bend over because they can't afford the time and cost. Many of the medium venues will bend over because they don't want to lay out the time and cost.

Users will bend over because they don't have much alternative.

 

[lovecraft68]

Bookstrand is not that small, and think of the money they will be losing. So it's a toss up. Spend the money and the time to be able to pay people another way, or lose out on a lot of money in royalties.

As for authors being leery of giving over routing and checking account numbers. Same deal, hold onto your paranoia or lose money.

What upsets me when I see these things is that there are people out there whose royalty money makes a difference in their lives. There are people on Amazon especially who are making a decent sum of money that's being used to put food on their kids tables and it's being taking away from them by people like paypal and Amazon deciding on a whim what they feel like doing.

Amazon and Paypal are businesses. They can pretend to take a stance, but the pocketbook is where it matters. If companies like Bookstrand and Smashworda and others say, okay we'll start cutting checks to people see you later. Those "morals" may quickly run out the door.

This is an example of what is wrong in general with this country. We are allegedly a democracy. A country where everyone's voice is supposedly heard. Yet time and again, a very few are deciding what the millions can and cannot do. Because the millions just keep letting them.

My royalties that I get are not a lot of money and I certainly don't need them to live on. I will contact SW today and tell them to switch my payment to paper check because I do not agree with Paypal's practices.

And I know someone will come back with "yeah like paypal cares they going to lose the $6.00 they would make on that transaction."

And yes that person would be right, but if it became $6.00 times tens of thousands of people now its a problem for them.

I very rarely, if ever get political on this site. That is not why I come here, but seriously in a variety of ways the people need to take this country back and stick up for their constitutional rights and not many seem interested in doing so.

WE are lazy and complacent. All I can say is I'm glad that years ago people like George Washington didn't say "they're the British they can do what they want."

And people here can mock that analogy, but its true.

 

[Darkniciad]

I don't have any skin in the game. I let my paypal account lapse many years ago along with my ebay account. I don't charge anyone for my work, because I'm not good enough for that.

I suppose I am technically boycotting paypal-only sites, because I won't screw with them.

 

[jaF0]

Two months ago I get an e-mail from Paypal saying they have a new policy. From now on any payment I receive for an e-bay transaction will be held and not released to me for 21 days.

That's not a new policy. It's been in place for at least 5 years, maybe longer. The eBay boards lit up with complaints about it when they first started doing it.

Might be the first time they hit you, but it's definitely not new. That was just one thing that started a mass exodus away from eBay and PP.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why anybody uses either site any more.

 

[lovecraft68]

That's not a new policy. It's been in place for at least 5 years, maybe longer. The eBay boards lit up with complaints about it when they first started doing it.

Might be the first time they hit you, but it's definitely not new. That was just one thing that started a mass exodus away from eBay and PP.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why anybody uses either site any more.

Really? Well I never visited the forums or community over there so I was not aware of it. When they sent me the e-mail they said it was a new policy. Maybe as you said they were getting greedy and working their way up from newbies to well established sellers.

As for why people use it?

Well speaking from the collectible end of things people are all over e-bay because it has singlehandedly destroyed the market.

It does not matter what you collect, stamps, comics trains, the price guides are out the window and the dealers and brick and mortar stores are in trouble because it does not matter if an item is worth $100. Joe shmoe is selling it for $.99 and $3.00 shipping. The same person will bid $10 on this item until he eventually wins it. So e-bay is all about the bargain where that field is concerned.

as for paypal the shame is, it is very easy to use and credit where it is due it is very secure. In ten years I have never had an issue other than their unsavory bullying.

Five years ago I won and auction for $3,500. The collection contained an Amazing Fantasy #15 and a dozen other key silver age comics. What happened was the seller had two misspelling in his auction and his pictures were a bit weak he also was new so all that kept the auction price down.

I paid immediately and three weeks later nothing after several attempts I went to paypal who refunded my money within 3 days through their buyer protection. It's not a bad service, but they, like amazon, need to stop playing morality police\ and deciding what consumers should be purchasing.

Paypal more than Amazon is guilty here. Amazon I suppose can technically dictate what they choose to sell. But paypal simply runs money back and forth how do they know where it comes from and why do they care?

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't have any skin in the game. I let my paypal account lapse many years ago along with my ebay account. I don't charge anyone for my work, because I'm not good enough for that.

I suppose I am technically boycotting paypal-only sites, because I won't screw with them.

Then you're doing your part with that very attitude. You see paypal you say forget about it.

I will be honest here, had Paypal not caved and waived that rule on me, it would have been a very tough decision for me. $1500 a month is not an insignificant sum of money. I don;t need it for my day to day expenses between the wife and I we do alright and I don;t have any worries. But that money is the slush fund. It pays for our vacations any "toys" either one of us want some extra things around the house and does give a cushion if anything should happen.

I think at the end of the day I would have held to principle, but it would have sucked. It would have meant my lazy ass going back to doing trade shows around New England to make that money.

Again this brings me back to the term bullying because I know plenty of people who rely on that money to get by and they have to take it. Just bullshit all around.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Paypal has a quasi-monopoly, hence they're still here despite no one actually liking them and many many stories circulating of sharp and dubious practise (e.g. locking the account of the Minecraft indie game developer after popularity over his game saw him raise over a million dollars in a very short time)

It's a mystery to me how they haven't been flattened by a competitor by now. The market seems lucrative and paypal's reputation is atrocious. Under normal circumstances a google or someone similar should have annihilated them by now.

It's money and finance, so I guess--as usual--the usual rules of capitalism are suspended. Free markets everywhere else as long as it doesn't disrupt the cosy cartels. Quelle surprise.

 

[3113]

It's a mystery to me how they haven't been flattened by a competitor by now.

I think, thanks to certain apps and electronic banking where you can easily directly deposit and such, that they are going to go the way of the Dodo. It's becoming easier and easier for people to do without the middleman.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think, thanks to certain apps and electronic banking where you can easily directly deposit and such, that they are going to go the way of the Dodo. It's becoming easier and easier for people to do without the middleman.

If you know that I think it would be safe to assume they are aware of this as well.

Following that thought you would think they would be doing anything they can to keep the money coming in, not pissing everyone off and making demands.

I think as long as e-bay is doing well they will be around, but making far less than they could be.

On the note of e-bay they are fucking desperate! I get e-mails every week for specials on listing fees. everything thing from list free for a certain day to list up to x- amount of items free for the month.

Now I load auctions into turbo lister and don;t release them until they have a special I have not paid a listing fee in close to a year.

 

[sr71plt]

According to BookStrand, Paypal is passing the buck (so to speak) on the reasoning for this: "This is not only a PayPal issue. We were told by PayPal they have to comply with Visa/MasterCard regulations so that they do not get fined."

Beyond that I can see "someone" here can't get it through his head that we don't have gestapo laws about what businesses "have to do" with their own resources in the United States--and in this case they might actually be following the laws/regulations put in place by government.

Porn has its own online payment plan (CC Billing, or something like that). The romance/erotica world is big enough to have its own banking system--assuming that banking laws would permit it to do what Paypal says it can't do. And maybe it can't legally.

 

[lovecraft68]

According to BookStrand, Paypal is passing the buck (so to speak) on the reasoning for this: "This is not only a PayPal issue. We were told by PayPal they have to comply with Visa/MasterCard regulations so that they do not get fined."

Beyond that I can see "someone" here can't get it through his head that we don't have gestapo laws about what businesses "have to do" with their own resources in the United States--and in this case they might actually be following the laws/regulations put in place by government.

Porn has its own online payment plan (CC Billing, or something like that). The romance/erotica world is big enough to have its own banking system--assuming that banking laws would permit it to do what Paypal says it can't do. And maybe it can't legally.

But if you have your own paypal account you are paying with that and you don't necessarily need a visa/mastercard.

And businesses will ultimately do what their customers demand. The problem is customers are to meek to demand anything of the people who are supposed to be providing them with a service in the first place.

When Amazon goes on its annual incest kick it is because someone found something offensive to them and complained. The complaints are followed by lame assed threats of "if amazon is going to carry this materiel we will boycott it"

It seems to work they at one point insisted they had the right to carry whatever then folded faster than superman on laundry day. For whatever reason they think they cannot live without the $20 a month the complainant is threatening to take elsewhere.

They do this because on the other end the erotica authors don't say okay if you are not going to grow up and add an adult section like you should to elimate these issues, we will not not only pull our material but we will boycott as well. No one has tried it so who knows if it would work we never will know.

Part of e-bays ( and watch this closely because at one point e-bay was every bit as big as amazon so monitor where they go from here) downfall is they have shifted too much power to the buyer. To the point that a seller cannot even leave negative feedback if the buyer does not pay! If anything goes wrong no matter what it is the seller is liable.

now after a couple of years of this shit(including freezing the prices you can charge for shipping so you may now be losing money there as well) sellers are dropping off. hence e-bays desperation to get the remaining sellers to list. They are learning the hard way that you need to take into consideration what the customer actually wants.

By the way, I want to point out that you made an excellent point about CC Billing.

If they were smart they would start pitching themselves to sites like bookstrand and Smashwords, the time to swoop in is when people are unhappy with the competitor.

 

[sr71plt]

But if you have your own paypal account you are paying with that and you don't necessarily need a visa/mastercard.

So what? What does that have to do with Paypal being subject to the same industry regulations that visa/mastercard are?

CC Billing isn't an answer. It's well known as the porn banking system. Many buyers aren't going to want CC Billing to show on their banking statements. that's why I specified the romance/erotica world--so that erotica could hide behind general romance.

 

[lovecraft68]

So what? What does that have to do with Paypal being subject to the same industry regulations that visa/mastercard are?

CC Billing isn't an answer. It's well known as the porn banking system. Many buyers aren't going to want CC Billing to show on their banking statements. that's why I specified the romance/erotica world--so that erotica could hide behind general romance.

It has everything to do with this.

Okay if I buy one of your books from smashwords I can do so with my paypal account. Paypal then pays you your royalties from the sale. where are visa and mastercard becoming involved?

In fact because I generally have a fairly high balance in my paypal account my damn credit cards have dust on them.

Paypal is pretty much accepted in most places a credit card is(at least online) so why does Paylpal give a damn about them?

Taking this further and back on the subject of censorship and control what right does MC/visa have to tell me or anyone else that I can't buy any other damn porn I want? what's next? they'll say you can't use their card in amazing superstores?

 

[jaF0]

So what? What does that have to do with Paypal being subject to the same industry regulations that visa/mastercard are?

Another question that was dealt with frequently on the eBay boards.

PP's lawyers carefully crafted the company so it doesn't fall under standard regulations. They're not a bank and they're not a payment processor as such. They're some sort of payment transfer service that falls between the cracks. Most existing laws don't really apply to them and neither Sacramento or Washington have the cajones to draft new laws to rein them in.

Remember, eBay own PP and Meg who used to run eBay also runs a big part of California despite her loss in the Governor's race.

 

[lovecraft68]

Another question that was dealt with frequently on the eBay boards.

PP's lawyers carefully crafted the company so it doesn't fall under standard regulations. They're not a bank and they're not a payment processor as such. They're some sort of payment transfer service that falls between the cracks. Most existing laws don't really apply to them and neither Sacramento or Washington have the cajones to draft new laws to rein them in.

Remember, eBay own PP and Meg who used to run eBay also runs a big part of California despite her loss in the Governor's race.

Exactly, which means again, why do they give a shit about the CC companies? They are their own little world and can do whatever they want legally.

But to the topic at hand, it is still stupidity to try to dictate what people can do with their own businesses.

 

[sr71plt]

It has everything to do with this.

Okay if I buy one of your books from smashwords I can do so with my paypal account. Paypal then pays you your royalties from the sale. where are visa and mastercard becoming involved?

*sigh* You just don't get it, do you? It's about Paypal being subject to the same industry regulations that Visa and Mastercard are.

It's about Paypal being subject to the same industry regulations that Visa and Mastercard are.

It isn't about anything you're trying to make it about.

 

[sr71plt]

Another question that was dealt with frequently on the eBay boards.

PP's lawyers carefully crafted the company so it doesn't fall under standard regulations. They're not a bank and they're not a payment processor as such. They're some sort of payment transfer service that falls between the cracks. Most existing laws don't really apply to them and neither Sacramento or Washington have the cajones to draft new laws to rein them in.

Remember, eBay own PP and Meg who used to run eBay also runs a big part of California despite her loss in the Governor's race.

Paypal's answer to BookStrand is that the ARE subject to the same regulations as Visa and Mastercard on this. I quoted them on that. They may be lying for all I know. But that's the reasoning they gave.

And yammering here about what they can do and what they can't do is totally useless.

 

[lovecraft68]

Paypal's answer to BookStrand is that the ARE subject to the same regulations as Visa and Mastercard on this. I quoted them on that. They may be lying for all I know. But that's the reasoning they gave.

And yammering here about what they can do and what they can't do is totally useless.

Then why start the thread bunky?

Well for a good reason because it can effect you and many others here. But when people start questioning what can be done about it you say "nothing".

so why bother? You're obviously one of those who will accept anything anyone tells you. Perfect fodder for them.

And yes, of course they are lying. If it benefits them to at some point say they are not held to those laws they will say that as well.