Passionately concerned about "The Passion"

[WindChyme]

I have a sickening fear that this Mel Gibson movie is the Christian right's slap in the face of "Schindler's List." I get a creepy feeling about all this hype and hoopla... really, REALLY creepy! I'm not good with anti-semitism. Has anyone seen it yet? Does anyone have any thoughts on whether someone who loses sleep over carnage and cruelty can tolerate this film? Someone very important to me wants to go, and I'm a-scared!

 

[Maria2394]

hi Windchyme

this movie has many people concerened around here where I live. South Carolina, deep in the bible belt. I think that if you want to see it, you should, but please don't allow anyone to force his/her beliefs on you or make you feel guilty if you decide not to go with that person.
I do not intend to see it, it has nothing to do with what I believe, except, I knew it made me sick when I saw an Entertainment Tonight clip about all the "gifts" and paraphanilia that is being sold along with it..it ( the movie)is a money machine, in my opinion, and ever so often someone pops up with a new religious movie that creates a stir, they wanted publicity, they got it, no one has to be a part to it if they choose not to, right? so go with your heart, what you see on that screen or do not see does not change who you are..

 

[Angeline]

It's a movie. That's all. A movie. And I have experienced my share of anti-lots of stuff, including semitism.

Actually I find this post, which I read on another site today, far more disturbing...

Our menu changes from year to year but the one thing that doesn't is the orange-coconut cake for dessert. I make the cake and part of the fun is that my cousins' kids get to decorate it while we are finishing making the dinner - sometime grass (green-dyed coconut) with marshmallow peeps parading across the top, sometimes Happy Easter spelled out in little jellibeans. But the best was a couple of years ago when they had a marshmallow bunny Jesus emerging from an upright and halved Twinkie tomb.

 

[Guest]

Chill out people. Mel wants to make some money. It's up to you if you want to help him. Me, I won't be.

 

[eagleyez]

passion rules the day


dig that and give thanks

 

[Angeline]

Chill out people. Mel wants to make some money. It's up to you if you want to help him. Me, I won't be.

Um I believe that was my point--but understand that some folks have reason to find these things difficult.

 

[WindChyme]

The Willy

It's a movie. That's all. A movie. And I have experienced my share of anti-lots of stuff, including semitism.

Actually I find this post, which I read on another site today, far more disturbing...

Our menu changes from year to year but the one thing that doesn't is the orange-coconut cake for dessert. I make the cake and part of the fun is that my cousins' kids get to decorate it while we are finishing making the dinner - sometime grass (green-dyed coconut) with marshmallow peeps parading across the top, sometimes Happy Easter spelled out in little jellibeans. But the best was a couple of years ago when they had a marshmallow bunny Jesus emerging from an upright and halved Twinkie tomb.

I don't know...

That some Marabelle Morgan wannabee is making tasteless "tasties" with which to commemorate a gruesome torture execution is, admittedly, nauseating. Glad I won't be there to share the day! But that one of Hollywood's most influential hypnotists is wielding his power in the time-honored tradition of Joseph Goebbels, well, that gives me the willies... and I feel like I've been getting the elephant's willy for the past 3 years. I'm gettin' mighty worn out!

But patience... Guess you're all right. I suppose this, too, shall pass. It still gives me the creeps.

P.S.
If anybody sees this piece de resistance, please let me know if the hype is true.

 

[WindChyme]

hi Windchyme

I knew it made me sick when I saw an Entertainment Tonight clip about all the "gifts" and paraphanilia that is being sold along with it..it ( the movie)is a money machine, in my opinion, and ever so often someone pops up with a new religious movie that creates a stir, they wanted publicity, they got it, no one has to be a part to it if they choose not to, right? so go with your heart, what you see on that screen or do not see does not change who you are..

Hello, Maria.

You're right, of course. I was frightened at an early age by Christian religious movies (true!), and have been wary since then. I remember around 1987 when "The Last Temptation of Christ" came out, and boy oh boy, to hear Mother Angelica tell it, the world was about to stop in its celestial tracks. When I saw it, I couldn't imagine what they were on about. Maybe this is the other end of that spectrum.

 

[Guest]

Um I believe that was my point--but understand that some folks have reason to find these things difficult.

I know it is your point. Why is it difficult to accept the fantasy of a movie?

 

[Maria2394]

what I find difficult about the whole organized religion thing is, the level of guilt and desperate attempt to assign blame for something, ( many things) to someone...all religions, I guess, are guilty of this..I remember when I was about 7 and my parents had gone out for dinner on their anniversary...well, someone from the southern baptist church we went to saw her and my dad at the restaurant. My mom made th e unforgiveable sin of having a glass of wine and a dance..

well, they all prayed for her, and humiliated her till she left from the church crying and swore she'd never return and the next sunday, the church people came to our house, stood in our front yard singing and looking up at the sky, holding hnds and stuff

..it was horrifying. all those holier than thou lunatics with their bibles praying for us..I never went back, neither did she and i have no respect for people who judge when we should all realize, we are all part of the same collective, the same universe..I believe in God, yes I do...I just dont believe in religion much anymore...

ps, I do vote, I do pray, I read to my kids when they were little, I am thankful and I dont wear underwear

and thats all I have to say about that

good luck with whatever you decide, WC

 

[Guest]

*sad laugh* Don't get me started on religion - the cause of so many of the World's ills.

 

[Liar]

*sad laugh* Don't get me started on religion - the cause of so many of the World's ills.

Or rather, religion - the bad excuse for so many of the World's ills.

Now, I have'nt seen The Passion but from what I've heard, it's just yet another unoriginal "Christ suffered for our sins, oh yeah, big time." flick with a bigger budget than most. His tormentors are made to look extra evil for dramatic effect. Thos guys were romans and jews. Anti-semitic, I dunno. Pointless? You bet.

Mel thinks he is on some mission to make chrisitans rediscover their faith. He's pretty alone in that sentiment.

#L

 

[Angeline]

I know it is your point. Why is it difficult to accept the fantasy of a movie?

Some people come from experiences that make it difficult to separate fantasy and reality. My grandfather and his brother walked across Poland to Germany, then worked on the docks in Hamburg to earn money for steerage passage to America. They did this to avoid conscription into the Polish army--which at the time would likely have put them on the front lines of a conflict or in some other dangerous position (this was shortly before WW1--and they were both younger than my 16-year-old son at the time). I've read that such treatment was common for young Jewish boys in that time and place. They made it--and hence you are reading this. The rest of their family--12 immediate family members and about 40 more extended--were never found after WW2.

My point is not to make anyone feel bad because I told a sad story. And it is after all a true one. For my grandfather--a truly loving human being in spite of that--that film (not to mention the Revisionist statements Mel's father made, which are not Mel's fault, but out there now) would be very upsetting. There are lots of people who I imagine feel that way. Sure they have a right to make the film and I doubt there's intentional anti-anything in it--but I think stories like this account for the way many people overreact--it's not a rational thing.

And that's just one example.

I agree with you--the best response to this hoopla is don't go see it--I won't either, but I know it's very hard for some, and I try to understand.

 

[WickedEve]

what I find difficult about the whole organized religion thing is, the level of guilt and desperate attempt to assign blame for something, ( many things) to someone...all religions, I guess, are guilty of this..I remember when I was about 7 and my parents had gone out for dinner on their anniversary...well, someone from the southern baptist church we went to saw her and my dad at the restaurant. My mom made th e unforgiveable sin of having a glass of wine and a dance..

well, they all prayed for her, and humiliated her till she left from the church crying and swore she'd never return and the next sunday, the church people came to our house, stood in our front yard singing and looking up at the sky, holding hnds and stuff

..it was horrifying. all those holier than thou lunatics with their bibles praying for us..I never went back, neither did she and i have no respect for people who judge when we should all realize, we are all part of the same collective, the same universe..I believe in God, yes I do...I just dont believe in religion much anymore...

ps, I do vote, I do pray, I read to my kids when they were little, I am thankful and I dont wear underwear

and thats all I have to say about that

good luck with whatever you decide, WC

We have much in common besides the no underwear and southern thing. lol Your religious experience was horrifying. Mine were beyond that and not worth talking about, except with a good friend last night. I've been disturbed by the previews of this movie. I turn my head and click the remote, even though I know it's just a movie.
I have a phobia about snakes and many years of serpent nightmares. So, a movie about the same (even though it's all hollywood) would still disturb me.
So now I avoid church and turning over rocks in the woods.

 

[HomerPindar]

I believe in God, yes I do...I just dont believe in religion much anymore...

Deist, one who believes in God(s) but not religion. Most of our (U.S of A) founding fathers were, in fact, Deist and not christians as the right would have you believe. They were more of the thought that God created the place and left it running like a machine of sorts. I don't hold to that perspective, but I do count myself a deist, although (irony here) I didn't learn to believe in God through a religion but through physics.

Oh, and when I can rent it maybe - I mean, I already know how it ends.

HomerPindar

 

[Angeline]

Deist, one who believes in God(s) but not religion. Most of our (U.S of A) founding fathers were, in fact, Deist and not christians as the right would have you believe. They were more of the thought that God created the place and left it running like a machine of sorts. I don't hold to that perspective, but I do count myself a deist, although (irony here) I didn't learn to believe in God through a religion but through physics.

Oh, and when I can rent it maybe - I mean, I already know how it ends.

HomerPindar

Me too, but what I want to know is where that woman who made the cake got Jesus Peeps.

 

[WindChyme]

although (irony here) I didn't learn to believe in God through a religion but through physics.

HomerPindar

OMYGOD! Me, too! I found more in physics that I'd bet my life on than I ever did in a book on religion. It made me certain that there was some intelligence or force within existence. I'm pretty sure George Lucas had this epiphany, too!

 

[Guest]

I hear they bringing out a book of the movie.

 

[Angeline]

I hear they bringing out a book of the movie.

I hear there's some good poetry in the appendices.

 

[mojo_cat]

hype also

If you haven't heard Mel Gibson's father, Hutton Gibson, speaking on NPR and Stern about how the holocaust didn't happen, the Jews don't work, and all of the other Nazi b.s. he has been spouting, do yourself a favour and listen to it (there are webstreams being hosted on tons of pages, just put "Hutton Gibson" into Google) before you go see the film.

The anomaly here is that making a film about something that actually happened seems to negate the anti-Semitism..I mean, the jews were around when it all happened, as far as we know, right? So how is it bad to show that? Right?

Wrong. From everything I have seen (and the awful two hours of my life I spent seeing that film so I could comment on it from an informed perspective, since everyone I know is on about it lately) (goddamn catholic school, i'll never be free of you), this film is an inaccurately slanted portrayal.

The Jews denounced Jesus because they knew the Occupiers would systematically slaughter them should they rise up and rebel. They were beaten and starving. They did what they did and they had no foreknowledge of all that would be built up around the big JC in later years. Portraying them as bloodthirsty assholes who denounce all that is good and right in the name of money, in light of historical context? Yup. That's anti-Semitic.

I saw it. I wish I hadn't. I love horror movies more than anything, but as Rob Corddry said on the Daily Show last week:

"They worked him over pretty good, Jon."

I strongly suggest you avoid supporting this film. And if you have a weak stomach at all, it WILL make you nauseous. I've seen every scary movie ever, and I threw up moments after leaving the theatre, along with five other people.

But that is of course my own opinion.

 

[Guest]

I know the holocaust happened.

Listening to some bitter old Ozzie spout off isn't going to change that so why give him the time of day?

I'm not religious and Mel Gibson's movie does not interest me at all. I go to the theatre to be stimulated and entertained - from what I've seen and read about this one - it'll do neither.


Just MHO and not a poke at any one in here.

 

[mojo_cat]

i agree

I know the holocaust happened.

Listening to some bitter old Ozzie spout off isn't going to change that so why give him the time of day?

I'm not religious and Mel Gibson's movie does not interest me at all. I go to the theatre to be stimulated and entertained - from what I've seen and read about this one - it'll do neither.


Just MHO and not a poke at any one in here.

I feel you, Tris; all I'm saying is that if zealots of any stripe wanna make movies that cause controversy, it would do us well to have an informed opinion about where they're coming from. A lot fo noise has been made about the film being anti-Semitic; so I find it interesting that his father is a Holocaust denier.

Just one of the many ironies of religion. Thought you guys might find it interesting.

 

[Angeline]

I know the holocaust happened.

Listening to some bitter old Ozzie spout off isn't going to change that so why give him the time of day?

I'm not religious and Mel Gibson's movie does not interest me at all. I go to the theatre to be stimulated and entertained - from what I've seen and read about this one - it'll do neither.


Just MHO and not a poke at any one in here.

I know Tess. I agree with you, and I know you're a sweetie.

You know I'm not religious in any traditional sense, but I am Jewish--at least that's my ancestry, and I do have ancestors who very likely died in death camps, though you know for many families this is all but impossible to document.

I'm not particularly concerned one way or the other about this film--it's not something I have any interest in seeing (Life of Brian is more my speed). I'll tell you what bothers me about it though. You are an enlightened person; you think for yourself. Any thinking person understands that any film that is not a documentary is fiction at least to some extent (hell even documentaries can be very manipulative and imply untruths). Any thinking person also recognizes that while historic fact can also be embellished, manipulated, the facts do speak for themselves.

But there are lots of unenlightened people in this world, who upon seeing the film or just hearing Gibson the elder will either believe or think what they believe is somehow confirmed. I think of my family--they are easier for me to imagine than total strangers--and how they must have suffered, then I think about this and it feels like just one more indignity. I know that's just me, the way I feel, but it's just wrong and hurtful.

I hate any kind of zealotry and shrill condemnation is not my thing, but sometimes one has no choice and speaks up for the ones without a voice to defend themselves. I'm glad for the groups that have expressed outrage, but only for that reason.

 

[eagleyez]

rusty old wheelbarrow
memory
leans
against
cedar
clapboard
wall's
crumble
in the
heart.

 

[Angeline]

My Poem for my family

Written in 2001

Lodz

On the eve of the Second World War,
Much of Lodz was Jewish
Thousands comprised the Jews of Lodz.
But only 12 are mine.

Chanah and Schmuel are mine.
Their children as well
I do not know their names,
but they are mine

What do I know of them?
That they had a farm,
Candlesticks, blankets, crockery
Maybe a horse, a cow?

Who knows what they had really,
besides each other
and two sons sent away.
Sent to America sent to escape
pogroms, army, front lines, death.

What’s the world without another Jew?
Still the world, no?

To be a Jew in Lodz
In 1890 or 1920; what did it mean?
You work prodigiously. You must.
Do less and you won’t prevail.

Chana and Schmuel prevailed.

America, America.
Thank you America.
Thank you my grandfather
For prevailing,
Thank you America.
For my life.

In September of 1939,
Lodz was occupied,
Part of the Warthegau,
part of the Reich.

First bank accounts blocked,
Then cash restricted,
Cars, radios taken away,
Curfews enforced.

Still, on a small farm,
even a poor one
There might be some hope left
A few eggs, some milk
A few potatoes

Not enough
not even for a child’s small stomach,
but some food to barter to share.

Unless even this was taken.

I do not know, but of course it was.
Eventually everything was taken.

In April of 1940, the Lodz Ghetto,
The Litzmannstadt
was officially opened
and shortly thereafter
began deportations to Chelmo.

Who knows
if they even got to Chelmo,
my 12 that is.

Conditions in the ghetto are recorded:
the lack of nutrition,
of sanitation, the starvation, the typhus.

The children with pinched faces,
With empty eyes
The skeletal bodies
pushing wheelbarrows, lifting bricks,
breaking stone, eating watery soup

We have seen these pictures.

The haunted faces that look out
from behind barred windows
the eyes that recede as trains move away

We have seen these pictures.

The empty train stations,
the platforms loaded
the piles of luggage, dolls, eyeglasses, photographs
the detritus of lives scattered, lives lost

We have seen these pictures.

How many Jews were left in Poland after the war?

None of mine.
None of my 12.

Dear Chanah and Schmuel,
dear great-grandparents,
Where do you belong,
you and your 10 endlessly young children?

Where do you fit?

On the wall overlooking the dining room table,
your painted photograph hangs in a now antique frame,
I watch your kind lost eyes and
You watch the comings and goings of people
for whom your lives hold no relevance.

Pray for your lost ones.
Make a brucha for the souls
of your last descendents.