Pain Deliverance vs Sadism

[Blushing Bottom]

I have wondered several times if there is indeed a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism. There have been those who tell me there is a major difference but none of the explainations regarding the differences had enlightened me.

So I wonder in my ignorance if there are those of you out there who believe there is a difference and can explain it to me.

Thank-you for any efforts made.

 

[O'Mac]

I'd say that when I'll delivering pain, it's for my own satisfaction above and beyond anything else. I don't know why it is, but sometimes I just have a feeling to cause someone a bit of pain. The more I love that person, the more pain I want to cause her. It's always been consensual, of course. And I have never done it to cause serious harm. I'd say that because I can put limits on myself and my actions, I may not actually be all thaty sadistic. While I do derive a lot of pleasure from inflicting pain, I am aware that my partner also derives pleasure from the experience, so it's more a mutual form of expression.

PS: Okay, it's been really bugging me ever since I first saw your forums Avatar, blushing bottom, but who's fine ass is that you have as your user image?

 

[Mr. Mann]

I'd say that pleasure derived from delivering pain in a consensual BDSM type situation is different from true sadism.

In the former, the enjoyment comes from the knowledge that the subject actually enjoys the pain.

In the latter, a sadist can only enjoy it if their victim truly suffers.

One is an exquisite gift coming from abundent love and passion, and the other a base attempt to fill an endless void.

I think what you are getting at is similar to the difference between "play rape"/ravishment and real world criminal rape. - two very different things, even though from a certain perspective, they may look alike.

my two cents.

 

[Mr. Mann]

One is an exquisite gift coming from abundent love and passion, and the other a base attempt to fill an endless void.

On second thought, I'm not to sure about that. This is likely something that may be different depending on the individual.

 

[cati]

I'd say that pleasure derived from delivering pain in a consensual BDSM type situation is different from true sadism.

In the former, the enjoyment comes from the knowledge that the subject actually enjoys the pain.

In the latter, a sadist can only enjoy it if their victim truly suffers.

One is an exquisite gift coming from abundent love and passion, and the other a base attempt to fill an endless void.

I think what you are getting at is similar to the difference between "play rape"/ravishment and real world criminal rape. - two very different things, even though from a certain perspective, they may look alike.

Mr. Mann, I know its going to seem like I'm slamming your post, but I couldn't resist replying.

BDSM allows sadistic individuals a safe playground where they can express themselves. I'm not sure what you mean by "true" sadism. Either you are sadistic or you aren't....of course it can be a matter of degree. Eventhough sadists enjoy seeing their victims suffer, I would think they derive a degree of pleasure from inflicting that pain as well.

One of the differences between play rape and "real world" criminal rape is consent. Criminal rapists are pathological, plus a whole slew of other things.

I also feel that their crimes are "passionate" to the extreme.

Many submissives come to enjoy the pain their Tops/Doms inflict on them, while others may not. They tend to do it soley for their partner's enjoyment, knowing that they derive sadistic pleasure from the act.
Also Dominants will push their submssive/bottoms limits by getting her to "take" more pain as the relationship developes.

"A play- rape" scene can be as vicious as one desires to make it.
For an onlooker to make a judgement call to see if one scene appears more "real" than the other, is purely subjective.

I cannot answer BB's question as I am not a Dom, but thought I'd post anyway *s

 

[Mr. Mann]

No, I don't take it as a slam at all. We're all simply discussing some thoughts and information here, which is the purpose of the forum.

I don't think we really disagree in that it is a term of varying degrees.

Here, I also think that the language can be a challenge as we may be using terms such as "sadism" in their lay context as opposed to a psychological term of art.

Real world rapes are not all the same. A fantasy rapist is a very different thing from an anger excitation rapist, and this is actually getting to the fundamental issue of varrying degrees.

Rape may sometimes be about "passion" or catathymic involving emotional release... but depending on the rapist, it can also be completely deviod of emotion as the perpetrator is actually incapable of experiencing certain emotions such as empathy, caring, or love.

A "sadist" who enjoys inflicting pain in a BDSM scenario, perhaps with or without the ejoyment of the subject, but most certainly with thier informed consent --- is a wholly different "sadist" than the type of rapist who uses an extremely violent bltiz style of attack on a victim, uses physical violence to control their victim, then ties them up, tortures them, mutilates their body, and kills them.

(For more info on types of rapist - http://www.paralumun.com/issuesprofile.htm )

The act may look similar,... but the people, dynamic, and drives are different.

Perhaps part of the issue is an absence of psychopathy and/or the ability to experience sexual pleasure from things other than inflicting pain.

Additionally, while many submissives/masochists may enjoy experiencing pain in a consensual setting, I'm not sure they would enjoy it at the hands of a true violent predator. Nor would your neighborhood "Dom" enjoy actually kidnapping, torturing, raping amd killing innocent victims.

I don't mean to slam you at all with any of this. However, I think these points and distinctions are important to discuss because many who aren't "kink aware" make connections to things that aren't neccessarily there.

Sometimes a roll of duct tape is just a handy tool. Sometimes it is a fun accessory. Sometimes it is a tool for real kidnapping, torture, and murder.

Just because a BDSM "scene" may LOOK similar to certain brutal crimes, the drives, desires, fantasies, and relationships are not the same.

(Example of bad - http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/btk/btk_jump_page.html )

(Example of good - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_(BDSM) )

So... getting back to Ms. Bottom's original questions. Yes, there is a difference that I think is fairly clear once you actually take a good look at consensual and non-consensual sadistic acts, you see that they look very differnt once you get beyond the superficial.

...at least in my opinion.

Wow. Good discussion! Deep stuff in here!

 

[Mr. Mann]

Just to calrify cati,

I don't think we disagree as to the varrying degrees.

I think you make a good point on whether or not some people enjoy the pain. I likely failed to appreciate that as I think I also did with the issue of whether some "sadists" enjoy inflicting pain vs. "inflicting pain only when someone enjoys it".

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Nope...I'm not getting what I want here. *pout*

...any other thoughts?

 

[WyoD_S]

...a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism...

Intresting question. I was once the Dominant who enjoyed the deliverance of pain. At that time, I delivered the pain in such a way as to fulfill the submissives desires. I enjoyed it greatly not because of the pain that was given, but because I was fulfilling anothers desires. The goal of each encounter was not to fulfill My desire to inflict pain, but the submissives desire to feel a measured amount of pain.

Since that time, My sadistic side has matured and comes out to play ocassionally. When I am in Sadist mode, and deliver pain, I do not care a bit whether My slave is enjoying it or not. I am doing it solely to fulfill My own desires, I derive My own pleasure from the act itself.

 

[cati]

Yanno Mr. Mann I don't understand the point that you are trying to make.
All you've done is reiterate your previous post. Where do you think the use of duct tape in BDSM play originated?

BB have no fear, sooner or later some wise Dom will come and rescue this thread and hopefully give you an additional answer to your question.
I'm just getting more frazzled by the minute.

 

[Mr. Mann]

Nope...I'm not getting what I want here. *pout*

...any other thoughts?

Uhhhhh. Well then, I've obviously failed to understand what you are talking about then and can unequivocally state that I have no earthly idea. 'Course, I'm still pretty new to these issues, so..... no small feat stumping a newbie.

Perhaps, as cati said, a response from someone who is wiser and more experienced can provide the insight your looking for. I'll look forward to that and learning something new in the process.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I am not sure if this can be clearly defined but I will take a stab at expressing my thoughts on the subject. Mind you, this is just my way of delineating a difference and I could very easily be way off the mark.

A sadist is one that derives pleasure/gratification in the infliction of pain upon another where as a dominant would not, but they may inflict pain willingly to give the sensations a sub craves within a scene. The dominant would stop when the dom is coming close to leaving their comfort level where as a sadist would push the sub to the brink of the sub's comfort level.

My use of the term sadist is within the BDSM context.

 

[jadefirefly]

I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but I don't understand the question. I want to help, but I'm not sure what is meant.

 

[DVS]

A "true" sadist enjoys inflicting pain for just that...the enjoyment of it. And, actually, the less he knows his victim, the better. He's not looking to start up a relationship or even a frienship, for that matter. He's just there to inflict pain and enjoy it.

The pure masochist is his opposite. She's there to receive pain for the enjoyment of it. She enjoys pain, not because he enjoys infliciting it, but because she enjoys receiving it. She's the pain slut everybody talks about. She enjoys receiving pain, and that's that.

The sadist enjoys the masochist because he gets what he wants and she enjoys the sadist because she gets what she wants. Not because she askes him for it, though. There is no relationship between them, other than he wants to inflict pain and she wants to receive it. Actually, the less they know about each other, the better for them. Too much information could tanish what they are there for.

Now, the Dom who enjoys inflicting pain is similar to the sadist, but he doesn't do it for exactly the same reasons. Where the sadist is pure and does it only for his enjoyment, the Dom also does it for his sub's enjoyment.

And, the sub is a little like the pure masochist in that she enjoys receiving pain, but not totally for the same reasons. Where the masochist only enjoys the pain in the pure sense, the sub also enjoys giving her Dom pleasure by taking what he gives her.

There is a friendship, a relationship or a partnership between the Dom and the sub...even if they aren't a couple. They most likely practice SS&C relations where the sadist and masochist wouldnl't.

There is communication between the Dom and sub, expressing desire or need, where the sadist and masochist won't do that. The pure sadist and masochist are involved totally for their own enjoyment and nothing more. SImply stated, neither cares about the other any further than the pain they share.

NOTE: When I mention sadist and masochist, I know there are some in the BDSM lifestyle that call themselves sadists and masochists. I don't consider these people of the "pure" variety, because they will always care about their partner's safety, and respect any limits and/or wishes.

That's the main distinguishing difference between a pure S/M duo and an SS&C S/M relationship. The latter couple cares about the well being and sexual desires of their partner.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I have wondered several imtes if there is indeed a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism. There have been those who tell me there is a major difference but none of the explainations regarding the differences had enlightened me.

So I wonder in my ignorance if there are those of you out there who believe there is a difference and can explain it to me.

Thank-you for any efforts made.

I dunno, in KCs world....if you enjoy giving pain you are a sadist. *shrug*
If you make it all nice and pretty for the sub during a scene so you look like the "nice dom" is there really a difference?
Im gonna venture to say that anyone who says they are only into pain deliverance and they are not a sadist is dealing with their own issues about what that word actually means.
I don't like unsure dominants or ones who try to make their desires less offensive (not really the right word but cant think of another that fits) by saying they are not sadistic but pain deliverers. Sounds too much like they are doin' you a favor or only doing it because you like pain.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I dunno, in KCs world....if you enjoy giving pain you are a sadist. *shrug*
If you make it all nice and pretty for the sub during a scene so you look like the "nice dom" is there really a difference?
Im gonna venture to say that anyone who says they are only into pain deliverance and they are not a sadist is dealing with their own issues about what that word actually means.
I don't like unsure dominants or ones who try to make their desires less offensive (not really the right word but cant think of another that fits) by saying they are not sadistic but pain deliverers. Sounds too much like they are doin' you a favor or only doing it because you like pain.

Have to agree with this in many ways. F is a sadist, and there was a time when due to morals, upbringing, society's expectations, he did want his partner to enjoy the pain. These days while he still likes it if I enjoy it, he isn't about to stop simply because I'm perhaps not enjoying it or he has moved beyond what is perfect for me. He can even laugh in those moments and remind me I gave myself to a sadist as his willing victim.

Catalina

 

[cati]

I have wondered several times if there is indeed a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism. There have been those who tell me there is a major difference but none of the explainations regarding the differences had enlightened me.

I'm going to give this another shot, in that I don't think there is a difference BB.
I firmly believe that the Tops out there enjoy inflicting pain and not just because the bottom/sub enjoys receiving pain. To what degree would depend on his becoming aroused or not during the act. His getting an erection during the scene would be a sure fire indication of "sexual sadism" in my opinion.
Yes, he could become aroused watching the bottom's reactions... in tears, writhing and squirming under the lash, but isn't this essentially the same thing?

I agree with Kallista, perhaps many Dominant/Tops are in denial and don't want to "admit" that they are sadists.

 

[cati]

I think its important to look at the means by which that "pain" is inflicted as well.
While one Top/Dom prefers to use a flogger, another another enjoys using a cane.
Why use a cane, because he gets more bite for the buck. Is one Dom more sadistic [/I] than the other... I would definetly say yes.
They are both sadists but in varying degrees.

How many Doms who were new to the lifestyle were initially repelled by the thought of ever "hitting" a woman and how easily they got over their "unease". They began to enjoy it.

 

[Alt]

I have wondered several imtes if there is indeed a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism. There have been those who tell me there is a major difference but none of the explainations regarding the differences had enlightened me.

So I wonder in my ignorance if there are those of you out there who believe there is a difference and can explain it to me.

Thank-you for any efforts made.

Not sure if this is what you were aiming for, but I feel there could a difference wherein a Dom/me can enjoy pain deliverance to a particular sub, if that is what both seek. However, that depends on the relationship between the two while a sadist thrives on pain deliverance regardless of who is receiving it, and if they wish for it.

 

[DVS]

I dunno, in KCs world....if you enjoy giving pain you are a sadist. *shrug*
If you make it all nice and pretty for the sub during a scene so you look like the "nice dom" is there really a difference?
Im gonna venture to say that anyone who says they are only into pain deliverance and they are not a sadist is dealing with their own issues about what that word actually means.
I don't like unsure dominants or ones who try to make their desires less offensive (not really the right word but cant think of another that fits) by saying they are not sadistic but pain deliverers. Sounds too much like they are doin' you a favor or only doing it because you like pain.

I agree with you that anyone who enjoys inflicing pain has sadistic tendencies, BUT there is more to it than that. Check out the various links, below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadism

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/mentalemotionalhealth/ment3168.html

http://www.health24.com/sex/Glossary/1253-1271,26494.asp

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/428/428lect13.htm

http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/sm.html

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/sexsadismTR.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/sadism-and-masochism

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...rtab=2222_1&hl=sadism&hl=masochism&sbid=lc01a

This last link is a test to see just how much of a sadiist or masochist you are. I don't know if it is any good for actually being a "true" test. So, buyer be ware.
http://www.armory.com/tests/bdsm.html

 

[Kajira Callista]

I agree with you that anyone who enjoys inflicing pain has sadistic tendencies, BUT there is more to it than that. Check out the various links, below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadism

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/mentalemotionalhealth/ment3168.html

http://www.health24.com/sex/Glossary/1253-1271,26494.asp

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/428/428lect13.htm

http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/sm.html

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/sexsadismTR.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/sadism-and-masochism

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...rtab=2222_1&hl=sadism&hl=masochism&sbid=lc01a

This last link is a test to see just how much of a sadiist or masochist you are. I don't know if it is any good for actually being a "true" test. So, buyer be ware.
http://www.armory.com/tests/bdsm.html

I dont need to read all that. I know what i find to be true and expressed it here. Debate about right or wrong was not the reason I posted my opinion.

 

[DVS]

I dont need to read all that. I know what i find to be true and expressed it here. Debate about right or wrong was not the reason I posted my opinion.

...but there is a difference between a true sadist and one who participates as one in a BDSM scene. They both enjoy inflicting pain for sexual stimulation but the true sadist will go much farther into the extreme than the BDSM version will...even to the severe mutilation and/or death of his victim.

I consdier myself a bit of a sadist...a BDSM version, and can say several of those links referenced tendencies I enjoy.But, there were many areas where I feel the BDSM sadist will stop, and a true sadist will continue. I say there is a difference between the two.

 

[Kajira Callista]

...but there is a difference between a true sadist and one who participates as one in a BDSM scene. They both enjoy inflicting pain for sexual stimulation but the true sadist will go much farther into the extreme than the BDSM version will...even to the severe mutilation and/or death of his victim.

I consdier myself a bit of a sadist...a BDSM version, and can say several of those links referenced tendencies I enjoy.But, there were many areas where I feel the BDSM sadist will stop, and a true sadist will continue. I say there is a difference between the two.

I don't agree. A sadist is a sadist no matter how you try to label or justify the degree.

 

[cati]

DVS stated that...but there is a difference between a true sadist and one who participates as one in a BDSM scene. They both enjoy inflicting pain for sexual stimulation but the true sadist will go much farther into the extreme than the BDSM version will...even to the severe mutilation and/or death of his victim.

DVS I beg to disagree...

I quickly went to each of the websites you posted and no-where did I find any reference to a true-sadist mutilating and/or killing his victim. Where is the pleasure when the "sadist" has killed his victim, since he is no longer getting the desired response from his prey.

I can only conclude that you were referring to instances of "sexual homicide" with evidence of torture... even then the individual would not be classified as a sadist but a "criminal psychopath" with sadistic tendencies... coupled with an antisocial personality disorder. I could also add one or two more pathologies to that list.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

ahem
I have read the entire Thread and may I ask the following .........

What about the Sadist then enjoys inflicting pain that takes place at an intellectual and emotional level . That is quite content using 'it' as an ongoing modus operandi between actual 'hands on deliverence' of pain. Partnered within a compliant/responsive/service orientated submissive or alternately a submissive with masochistic tendancies/having the ability to endure this form of pain and deriving some pleasure from the ongoing distress ?

I sooooooooo shouldn't look in here when I am working.....oops