Paganism and Wicca

[TheEarl]

Police say teacher 'wed' 14-year-old girl in pagan ritual

SOUTH HAVEN -- A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student whom she is accused of sexually assaulting participated in witchcraft together and even "wed" in a pagan ritual, police said.

...

Detective Sgt. Diane Oppenheim of the state police post in South Haven said the student came to trust the teacher so much, she agreed to "marry" the woman in a pagan ritual.

"They also participated in witchcraft together," Oppenheim said.


Thought I'd transplant this from Joe's thread as I'm going to rant and didn't want to hijack.

God, this makes me so cross! I'm not pagan, but I have some good friends who are wiccans and Paganism is a religion that I've studied and have much sympathy for. More than for some major religions in fact.

That headline itself is terrible. Teacher 'wed' girl in pagan ritual. 'Wed' with the speechmarks, because those evil pagans couldn't possibly marry like we normal people do. Hand-binding (the pagan marriage ceremony) is a legally recognised form of marriage in England, although I can't speak for American laws. And where the hell do they get off calling it a 'ritual'? According to the dictionary definition it's correct terminology for a religious act, but the word smacks of cults and evil heathen acts. Do you call a church wedding a 'Christian ritual'? No, it's just called a wedding. Rituals are what those filthy pagans do, didn't you know?

And Detective Sergeant Diane Oppenheim! "They participated in witchcraft together." I'd like to ask what the hell is that anyone's business? They were both wicca and they performed religious cermonies. They weren't worshipping the devil, they weren't summoning demons, they were exercising their constitutional right to freedom of worship. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but that was one of the reasons America was formed! Land of the Free, as long as you don't believe in Gaia. It had nothing to do with the abuse of a child, it was two people performing a religious act. Do you complain when parents take their children to Mass? "They participated in a Christian ritual together, with symbolised cannibalism and vampirism. Ugh, those filthy Christians and their dirty little rituals. And they forced their children to do it too."

Paganism is not devil-worship. It is not evil. It is not dirty, in fact I'd have to say it's a hell of a lot healthier than Christianity, or Islam, or Judaisim, or Shinto! The basic principles are that everyone will find their own route to heaven and that you can believe what you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. Do pagans insist that women walk 4m behind their husbands? Do pagans insist that any and all contraception is sinful and so people in Africa must learn to abstain? Do pagans believe in writings which state that any love between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is sinful in the eyes of God and that those who practise it are damned forever? No! It's the most tolerant religion I've come across and I'm damned if I will let anyone defame it in front of of me.

God, how can some people be so blinkered and stupid?

[/rant]

The Earl

 

[rgraham666]

Earl? People can be so blinkered and stupid because it relieves them of the burdens of thinking and responsibility.

What they know is "THE TRUTH" and doesn't need to be thought about. And because they know "THE TRUTH" any action they take is good.

My own take on the word 'pagan' is that it is a buzzword. Like 'liberal', 'commie', 'fascist' and 'capitalist' it is a word designed to appeal to the emotions and not the rational, wise part of our minds. It's meant to de-humanise 'the other', make them objects of evil.

Sad. But humans do that all the time. I wish they would stop though.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Cut & paste what you wrote and send it to the newspaper Earl. That's the only way they'll learn.

--dr.M.

 

[TheEarl]

My own take on the word 'pagan' is that it is a buzzword. Like 'liberal', 'commie', 'fascist' and 'capitalist' it is a word designed to appeal to the emotions and not the rational, wise part of our minds. It's meant to de-humanise 'the other', make them objects of evil.

Which is really sad. Cause paganism is actually the name of the religion. I know someone who is pagan (but not Wicca, there are slight ideological differences) and I know she'd be saddened to learn that her religion's a buzz word.

The Earl

 

[logophile]

Police say teacher 'wed' 14-year-old girl in pagan ritual

SOUTH HAVEN -- A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student whom she is accused of sexually assaulting participated in witchcraft together and even "wed" in a pagan ritual, police said.

...

"They participated in a Christian ritual together, with symbolised cannibalism and vampirism. Ugh, those filthy Christians and their dirty little rituals. And they forced their children to do it too."

LOL! Funny Earl, this is exactly how I've viewed communion since I was 10 years old. Scary and creepy.

Thank you so much for your post. I started to read the article Joe posted, but the obvious bigotry in it pissed me off before I could get very far and I moved on. It is true that a 36 year old (it was 36, right?) shouldn't be marrying a 14 year old, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Wicca. That's bad judgement, not bad religion.

And, as a side note, it's still a common practice in lots of fundamentalist Christian and Muslim communities.

 

[R. Richard]

I agree, the matter of the pagan involvement is obvious bigotry and nothing that the police should be involved in.

However, read the following from the report.

SOUTH HAVEN -- A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student whom she is accused of sexually assaulting participated in witchcraft together and even "wed" in a pagan ritual, police said.

A teacher, who has a great deal of control over a minor child student weds the (now ex)student. There are laws against this sort of thing in many states and should IMNTHO be in all states. Someone in a position of authority should be required to jump through all kinds of hoops prior to marrying a minor child, particularly a minor child of 14. The hoops should have nothing to do with any religion. The hoops should have to do with finding out if the marriage is in the child's best interest. A 14-year-old child is not capable of making such a decision on her own.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by TheEarl
Police say teacher 'wed' 14-year-old girl in pagan ritual

SOUTH HAVEN -- A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student whom she is accused of sexually assaulting participated in witchcraft together and even "wed" in a pagan ritual, police said.

...

Detective Sgt. Diane Oppenheim of the state police post in South Haven said the student came to trust the teacher so much, she agreed to "marry" the woman in a pagan ritual.

"They also participated in witchcraft together," Oppenheim said.


Thought I'd transplant this from Joe's thread as I'm going to rant and didn't want to hijack.

God, this makes me so cross! I'm not pagan, but I have some good friends who are wiccans and Paganism is a religion that I've studied and have much sympathy for. More than for some major religions in fact.

That headline itself is terrible. Teacher 'wed' girl in pagan ritual. 'Wed' with the speechmarks, because those evil pagans couldn't possibly marry like we normal people do. Hand-binding (the pagan marriage ceremony) is a legally recognised form of marriage in England, although I can't speak for American laws. And where the hell do they get off calling it a 'ritual'? According to the dictionary definition it's correct terminology for a religious act, but the word smacks of cults and evil heathen acts. Do you call a church wedding a 'Christian ritual'? No, it's just called a wedding. Rituals are what those filthy pagans do, didn't you know?

The... girl... is... fourteen.

"Wed" is an appropriate way to put it. Had she been dunked in water after the sex and told the girl "this way, its like it never happened and you're spiritually clean", then "baptised" would be appropriate. Its to emphasize the word and show, at the same time, that it was a fraudulency.

And Detective Sergeant Diane Oppenheim! "They participated in witchcraft together." I'd like to ask what the hell is that anyone's business? They were both wicca and they performed religious cermonies. They weren't worshipping the devil, they weren't summoning demons, they were exercising their constitutional right to freedom of worship. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but that was one of the reasons America was formed! Land of the Free, as long as you don't believe in Gaia. It had nothing to do with the abuse of a child, it was two people performing a religious act. Do you complain when parents take their children to Mass? "They participated in a Christian ritual together, with symbolised cannibalism and vampirism. Ugh, those filthy Christians and their dirty little rituals. And they forced their children to do it too."

If they spun a pottery wheel and fucked on the turn stone, their mutual tie being the craft of pottery, then I would maybe expect the cop to say "They did pottery together". Or, for other stuff, "They played in the park together" (if their playing in the park was directly related), "They babysat children together", "They attended Church together".... etc.

I mean, we may not WANT to admit that religion is a factor here, but it IS. She "wed" the girl. It seems that she used this commonality to abuse the girl. That isn't a judgement on the religion, but its being honest about what it can be used for and it disgusts me that so many people are choosing to ignore that around here.

Paganism is not devil-worship. It is not evil. It is not dirty, in fact I'd have to say it's a hell of a lot healthier than Christianity, or Islam, or Judaisim, or Shinto! The basic principles are that everyone will find their own route to heaven and that you can believe what you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. Do pagans insist that women walk 4m behind their husbands? Do pagans insist that any and all contraception is sinful and so people in Africa must learn to abstain? Do pagans believe in writings which state that any love between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is sinful in the eyes of God and that those who practise it are damned forever? No! It's the most tolerant religion I've come across and I'm damned if I will let anyone defame it in front of of me.

If you use it to molest a child, you're still a fuckwad. Doesn't matter which religion it is. And if you use it to molest a child, its an issue in the child molesting.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: Paganism and Wicca

If you use it to molest a child, you're still a fuckwad. Doesn't matter which religion it is. And if you use it to molest a child, its an issue in the child molesting.

Yes, but that wasn't the 'issue' in the article. And it disgusts many around here that others such as yourself, would choose to ignore that.

Guess what- I know a girl who was mollested by a couple from her church. And the story was in the newspaper and the story said absolutely nothing about there church affiliation or that they had church as a common bond.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I completely missed the part about her parents...they were where???

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: Paganism and Wicca

Originally posted by Amy Sweet
Yes, but that wasn't the 'issue' in the article. And it disgusts many around here that others such as yourself, would choose to ignore that.

Guess what- I know a girl who was mollested by a couple from her church. And the story was in the newspaper and the story said absolutely nothing about there church affiliation or that they had church as a common bond.

Did we even read the same article?

The article states the facts, makes no inferences. What, specifically, are you talking about?

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Paganism and Wicca

Did we even read the same article?

The article states the facts, makes no inferences. What, specifically, are you talking about?

Give me a break!


And I suppose your thread title made no inferences either?


[COLOR=sandy brown]Nobody believes that but you- if you even do.[/COLOR]

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Paganism and Wicca

Originally posted by Amy Sweet
Give me a break!


And I suppose your thread title made no inferences either?


[COLOR=sandy brown]Nobody believes that but you- if you even do.[/COLOR]

I'm serious... show me what you're talking about. What part of that article was inappropriate or misleading or inaccurate?

 

[TheEarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Paganism and Wicca

The... girl... is... fourteen.

Yes, I am aware that she was 14. That is not even the point. Well it is, in the sense that it's terrible and disgusting. You don't hear me arguing about that. What I am arguing is that this article is drawing references between the abuse and the fact that the abuser was pagan. There is no connection, other than the highly specious one that the reporter has insinuated.

"Wed" is an appropriate way to put it. Had she been dunked in water after the sex and told the girl "this way, its like it never happened and you're spiritually clean", then "baptised" would be appropriate. Its to emphasize the word and show, at the same time, that it was a fraudulency.

Was it emphasised as a fraudulency because the girl was underage, or because it was a pagan 'ritual'? Do you have any arguments with my complaints over the use of the word ritual?

If they spun a pottery wheel and fucked on the turn stone, their mutual tie being the craft of pottery, then I would maybe expect the cop to say "They did pottery together". Or, for other stuff, "They played in the park together" (if their playing in the park was directly related), "They babysat children together", "They attended Church together".... etc.

Joe, you are being deliberate obtuse because you don't want to relinquish your debating position. If they met through pottery, then the quote would be "They met through pottery."

Plus it is educational to notice the exact wording. I paraphrased when I repeated it in my original post, missing out a key word."They also participated in witchcraft together," Oppenheim said. 'Also.' The teacher seduced her pupil and she also participated in witchcraft with her pupil. The also gives the association between the paedophilia and the witchcraft. It's saying that there is something wrong with witchcraft. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there is nothing wrong with Mass. It is religious expression.

Tell me this quote doesn't sound weird: Detective Sgt. Diane Oppenheim of the state police post in South Haven said the student came to trust the teacher so much, she agreed to "marry" the woman in a pagan ritual.

"They also made clay pots together," Oppenheim said.

It has no connection to the marrying an underage child. It means nothing to the story, except for the prejudice that witchcraft is somehow corrupting and evil.

I mean, we may not WANT to admit that religion is a factor here, but it IS. She "wed" the girl. It seems that she used this commonality to abuse the girl. That isn't a judgement on the religion, but its being honest about what it can be used for and it disgusts me that so many people are choosing to ignore that around here.

Right, just from the start - who said anything about the religion playing a part in the molesting? Did the teacher convert the pupil? A lot of 14 y/o girls are interested in paganism, it could be that the child approached the teacher to ask questions.

The only connection between the molesting and the religion is that both of them shared the same religion and they had a handbinding ceremony. It would be a bit strange if they mocked up a Shinto marriage, wouldn't it?

'Being honest about what it can be used for'? God Joe, what are you on? Almost every religion in the world has a marriage ceremony of some kind. The fact that the teacher married them has nothing to do with the fact that she used a Pagan ceremony. She could just as easily have used a Christian ceremony, or a Jewish ceremony. The only reason it was a handbinding was because they were both Pagan and it would be strange for them to mock up a full Church wedding.

'What it can be used for'? - Joe, I'd love to know exactly what you meant by this. Paganism - can be used for underage marriages the world over. You do realise that this wasn't an actual marriage, just the same as reading the Christian marriage ceremony to your girlfriend wouldn't be. They're not actually married, in a religious or a legal sense, you do realise that right?

If you use it to molest a child, you're still a fuckwad. Doesn't matter which religion it is. And if you use it to molest a child, its an issue in the child molesting.

Without a doubt. Who says she used it to molest the child?

I'm serious... show me what you're talking about. What part of that article was inappropriate or misleading or inaccurate?

pagan ritual - The reporter hasn't bothered learning the name of the ceremony and frankly it's insulting to refer to it as a ritual.

"They also participated in witchcraft together," Oppenheim said. - 'Also' links the witchcraft to the sexual abuse in terms of evilness. I'd like to point out that the woman is being charged with sexual assault, not devil-worship. Freedom of religion anyone?

They are the two major issues, although the newspaper does have to be careful about what it prints. It has to make it unprovable that it defamed the religion, otherwise it'd get sued to high heaven. There are constant links between religion and the crime. They've mentioned witchcraft twice and 'pagan ritual' three times Not bad for things which actually had nothing to do with the crime.

The Earl

 

[cantdog]

I agree, the matter of the pagan involvement is obvious bigotry and nothing that the police should be involved in.

However, read the following from the report.

SOUTH HAVEN -- A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student whom she is accused of sexually assaulting participated in witchcraft together and even "wed" in a pagan ritual, police said.

A teacher, who has a great deal of control over a minor child student weds the (now ex)student. There are laws against this sort of thing in many states and should IMNTHO be in all states. Someone in a position of authority should be required to jump through all kinds of hoops prior to marrying a minor child, particularly a minor child of 14. The hoops should have nothing to do with any religion. The hoops should have to do with finding out if the marriage is in the child's best interest. A 14-year-old child is not capable of making such a decision on her own.

Much depends on the individual. Fourteen is not a straitjacket on the mind, it is a physiological age of the body. Many people of legal age to sign contracts are incapable of comprehending them, and many people of young chrono age are quite advanced. I knew a fifteen-year-old who was the guiding light for his parents, who had a wasting brain disease and a head injury, one each. He fed them, wiped the ass of one of them, tended their bodies, washed them, cashed their checks, the list was endless. He paid the motherfucking bills.

Fourteen is too young, my ass. Meet the person before you generalize.

And don't be making more asshole laws that people like Robert will have to get around somehow in order to keep people he loves alive.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

We have two of these things now?

Fuck.

Just fuck.

And it's a perfect clone too. Are you mad?

 

[matriarch]

Much depends on the individual. Fourteen is not a straitjacket on the mind, it is a physiological age of the body. Many people of legal age to sign contracts are incapable of comprehending them, and many people of young chrono age are quite advanced. I knew a fifteen-year-old who was the guiding light for his parents, who had a wasting brain disease and a head injury, one each. He fed them, wiped the ass of one of them, tended their bodies, washed them, cashed their checks, the list was endless. He paid the motherfucking bills.

Fourteen is too young, my ass. Meet the person before you generalize.

And don't be making more asshole laws that people like Robert will have to get around somehow in order to keep people he loves alive.

Bravo.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/12/04/teacher.jpg

Elizabeth Miklosovic is escorted to a detective's car after her
arraignment at District Court in South Haven, Mich. Miklosovic
was charged with first-degree criminal-sexual conduct,
a potential life offense.

Police say teacher 'wed' 14-year-old girl in pagan ritual
Associated Press

For any who wants to check the original story. There is the URL.

As always in this kind of story, Elizabeth Miklosovic is guilty in the newspaper headlines, before she has been more than arraigned. This in the testimony of a schoolgirl with emotional troubles and her friend’s testimony.

Statements are made, carefully pieced together declarative statements from one or another of the parties involved, and not once was the reporter forced to resort to the word “alleged.”

Right off the top, there is a possible lawsuit. The police did charge the woman with first- and second-degree criminal sexual conduct, but most of the facts in the headline comes from her accusers’ accusations. If the police said them, they should be sued, if the paper was just beefing up their headline, they should be sued, no matter who did what. The trouble is, unless the woman in question is innocent, and can prove her innocent far, far beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, any suit she brings would be too prejudiced to win.

Then there is the inflated sentence. I know that newspapers like to increase the importance of the story by signifying the greatest possible penalty allowable. It makes their job of sensationalising everything more believable.

"If convicted, Miklosovic faces a maximum sentence of life in prison. She was ordered held on a $100,000 bond and remained in the county jail Friday."

For her first offense, Mary Kay Letourneau received six months in jail and three years of counselling in a community-based program for sex offenders. It was only after repeatedly violating her probation (and giving birth to a second child) that Letourneau was sentenced to serve her maximum seven year sentence. [Incidentally, Letourneau is now considered by many to be the victim of a bipolar disorder, and at no time, apparently, was any thought given to issuing a restraining order against Vili to keep him away from Letourneau, which would have left the (by then) teenager liable to any penalty.]

Yet, in a case where not even the possibility of offspring exists, this reporter is mooting life imprisonment. Either the reporter is ignorant of the law, or has his own agenda — sensationalise everything to the maximum!

"Although the girl was in Miklosovic's class in the past, the sexual contact did not occur until this year, authorities said."

The fact that Miklosovic is a teacher is invalid. The girl was a former student, the alleged activity took place over the summer, and did not happen at school. There is no reason for the School Board, or the Principal to be consulted.

"The girl's family said Miklosovic brainwashed the girl into thinking the two did nothing wrong. A relative told the Grand Rapids Press that the family initially believed Miklosovic's interest in the girl -- who was described as vulnerable and as having emotional problems -- was to help her."

One wonders what caused the girl’s emotional problems?

"The student told a classmate about the relationship and the classmate told school officials, who placed the seventh-grade language arts teacher on leave from her job. Miklosovic has worked for South Haven Public Schools for three years."

A family that takes its problems to the newspaper with sensational accusations, alway makes me wonder about their competence, if not their sincerity. Once the law becomes involved, a certain amount of notoriety is inescapable, but that does not necessitate running to the first reporter (and this is the first reporter) on the scene, to publicise all the details, even if the girl wasn’t already judged to have emotional problems.

 

[Kassiana]

Of course this is just a cheap attempt to get publicity for their story by relying on the buzzword of "paganism." It sucks, yes. I hope local Pagans won't be harassed by the police and others under the guise of "protecting children" now. The article does its best to imply that being Pagan = marrying underage children and doing icky things to them.

I've been involved with the Pagan community since 1992 and have been a Pagan myself since 1999. Paganism is not about molesting children. Wicca is not about molesting children. "Witchcraft," whatever the hell the author of this article meant by it, is probably not about molesting children.

If someone's killed by a knife, do you blame the knife or the person who wielded it? Personally, I think it makes more sense to say (assuming for the moment that the charges are based in fact and that the teacher "used" Paganism to control/molest) that the teacher used a religion in a sick way, not that the religion's sick because some nutjob used it to do something sick.

Otherwise, get rid of all your bread knives. They're evil because they could be used to kill someone.

 

[TheEarl]

We have two of these things now?

Fuck.

Just fuck.

And it's a perfect clone too. Are you mad?

Luc: This was actually meant to be a thread about the way that pagans are treated and the prejudices that go with the people's perceptions of the religion. It just seemed to morph back into Joe and my's argument.

The Earl

 

[cantdog]

Those old telephones could be used to kill someone. I still have an old Western Electric rotary-dial number. It doesn't betray me if I call my connection, I suppose, but that's not why I have it. It is hard wired into the 'phone lines and the audio performance is vastly superior. If I have a bad connection with the winds of static howling and people's voices sounding like they are only swinging past their phone on the end of a long rope, I say, "Hold on a second; let me go to the other 'phone." I'm tethered to the spot, but we can hear one another when we couldn't on the broadcast 'phone.

And it's solid and heavy, dude. Its Bakelite black predecessors were a blunt instrument, proven to kill. Hit someone with one of these little braodcast babies, they might say ow but it would only piss 'em off.

cantdog

PS Ask Wildcard. People blame the guns. And they blame the knives, too. Certain sorts of knife are banned technology.

 

[TheEarl]

What's that phrase that the NRA use? 'Guns don't kill people, people, kill people,' but I think the gun helps. You're not going to do much damage by walked up to someone and shouting 'BANG!' I mean, you'd have to pick on someone with a really dicky heart to finish them off just by shouting 'BANG! BOOM! Ra-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta BOOM!

Eddie Izzard - Dressed to Kill

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

Trying to wean the thread away from Joe and my's debate...

http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/090999/new_roswell.shtml

ROSWELL, N.M. - The pastor of a Christian church in Roswell on Wednesday applauded a school board decision that prohibits students from wearing pentagrams, even as religious symbols.

"To most people, the symbol represents satanists," said Steve Smothermon, pastor of the interdenominational Church on the Move. "The pentagram is not a healthy sign for our kids. It's not right."
...
The policy labels the pentagram as being associated with gothic, satanic or occult-type activities.
...
Kathryn King, who said she is a pagan minister in Roswell, asked school officials to allow pagan students to wear the symbol as Christian students are allowed to wear crosses.

King was among the speakers Tuesday, telling the crowd that pagans are not devil worshipers.

"She spoke on behalf of her church," Burt said. "She was very eloquent, very kind. She said, 'I'm asking my Christian brothers and sisters to please allow us the same courtesy you're getting.' "
...
"But the majority was 'No,' 'No,' and 'Heck no.' They said (the pentagram) is evil. It's satanic. It's occult, so it did not pass."

I have friends who won't wear their pentagrams out in public, simply for the reaction they get. Even if they explain that they're pagan and the entire religion is based around 'If it harm none, do what you will,' people still seem to associate them with devil-worshippers and demon summoners. Some people just seem to have an off-switch in their ears which prevents them from hearing anything that could affect their prejudices.

The Earl

 

[Kassiana]

Maybe your friends don't live in an ignorant enough area. This literally happened to a Pagan I knew locally. He was approached by some evangelists one day and when they asked him what his religion was, he flashed his pentacle at them. They looked at it and then smiled, one saying, "Oh, so you're Jewish?"

So we're not Pagans. We're Jewish.

Check out the Crystal Seifferly case. It happens everywhere...though in her case, she won. Probably if the Pagans fight it in NM, they'll win too.

 

[cantdog]

Thor's hammers. Now that's pagan. It looks enough like a cross to fool the casual cleavage-peeper, too.

Dress codes irk the shit out of me. There's no excuse for it.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . I have friends who won't wear their pentagrams out in public, simply for the reaction they get. . . .

They would do better if they explained that they were Goths and that was there Official Werewolf Tee-Shirt.