Overreaction

[R. Richard]

The State of Massachusetts wants to count illegal aliens as a part of thier population, in order to enhance their representation in Congress. THIS IS NOT NECESSARY! In many big cities the dead also vote. If they can vote, just count them in the census. Sheesh, you would think that the obvious would not need to be explained to politicians. Comment?

Stand up and be counted
By Joe Dwinell and D. Craig MacCormack/ Community Newspaper Company
Friday, January 19, 2007 - Updated: 04:31 AM EST

Bay State officials seeking to save a coveted congressional seat are turning for help to residents who can’t even vote: illegal immigrants.

A census of the often-maligned underground residents - who face constant calls for their deportation - could be critical to reaching a population total that could preserve the seat.

“We need to chase them,” Secretary of State William Galvin said yesterday, stressing the need for an “all local” hunt for everyone living here.

Crucial to the census success: Convincing the estimated 150,000 to 200,000 illegal immigrants that they will simply be counted, not arrested.

“This is for real. A congressional seat is on the line,” said Ali Noorani, executive director of the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition.

A high cost of living is driving younger residents out of the Bay State, which lags dramatically behind states in the South and the West in population growth. Massachusetts could lose one of its 10 seats in the U.S. House, as well as political clout and millions of dollars in federal funds appropriated by congressional district.

“The money to fund many important federal programs is distributed to the states on the basis of population, so everyone in Massachusetts has a major stake in ensuring that we are not shortchanged by failing to get an accurate population count,” warned U.S. Rep. Edward Markey (D-Malden), the senior member of the state’s congressional delegation.

The next U.S. Census kicks off in about three years. The state’s current population is slightly more than 6.5 million.

A Census immigrant expert who this week is visiting Framingham, where there is a large Brazilian community, vowed the Census questionnaire will reach everybody using the latest street lists and even global-positioning systems.

“We take our responsibility very seriously,” said Cesar Monzon, a Boston Census Bureau specialist.

Monzon said Census officials struggle to track down foreign-born men age 18 to 44 and their children, even though the Census demands they be counted.

Kathleen Ludgate, executive director of the U.S. Census Bureau’s Boston region, said yesterday her office is out earlier to solve the immigrant puzzle in time for the 2010 count.

“We’re working with all communities to get the most accurate count we can,” she said.

Galvin said Cambodians in Lowell, Russians in Westfield, Brazilians in Framingham and Latinos in Lawrence are all target groups. He added college students must be counted, too.

 

[only_more_so]

Actually, the census doesn't count who can vote, simply the population living in a state. If they only counted those who could vote, then children and felons (depending on the state) wouldn't be counted, along with resident aliens, etc.

I think illegals probably shouldn't be counted, since they are effectively temporary, even if they are basically permanent.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

This is only the first step in the agenda of the left...next will be allowing them to vote.

 

[cloudy]

This is only the first step in the agenda of the left...next will be allowing them to vote.

Oops! You've detected our secret conspiracy!

 

[S-Des]

This is only the first step in the agenda of the left...next will be allowing them to vote.

It's the agenda of the right too, or the problem would have been seriously addressed in the last 6 years. A politician ran for governor here (you know him Zeb, he makes the best ice cream ). His platform centered around illegal immigration. Although it's a very popular issue in the polls, the Republican party practically disinherited him. Bush (among others) is far to the Left on this issue. Whether it's because of how much they love businesses having cheap labor, or because they're catering to potential voters, there's not enough will on the right to do anything serious about it.

 

[R. Richard]

This is only the first step in the agenda of the left...next will be allowing them to vote.

They don't really need to allow them to vote, the illegals who want to do so routinely.

 

[SeaCat]

The State of Massachusetts wants to count illegal aliens as a part of thier population, in order to enhance their representation in Congress. THIS IS NOT NECESSARY! In many big cities the dead also vote. If they can vote, just count them in the census. Sheesh, you would think that the obvious would not need to be explained to politicians. Comment?

Stand up and be counted
By Joe Dwinell and D. Craig MacCormack/ Community Newspaper Company
Friday, January 19, 2007 - Updated: 04:31 AM EST

Bay State officials seeking to save a coveted congressional seat are turning for help to residents who can’t even vote: illegal immigrants.

A census of the often-maligned underground residents - who face constant calls for their deportation - could be critical to reaching a population total that could preserve the seat.

“We need to chase them,” Secretary of State William Galvin said yesterday, stressing the need for an “all local” hunt for everyone living here.

Crucial to the census success: Convincing the estimated 150,000 to 200,000 illegal immigrants that they will simply be counted, not arrested.

“This is for real. A congressional seat is on the line,” said Ali Noorani, executive director of the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition.

A high cost of living is driving younger residents out of the Bay State, which lags dramatically behind states in the South and the West in population growth. Massachusetts could lose one of its 10 seats in the U.S. House, as well as political clout and millions of dollars in federal funds appropriated by congressional district.

“The money to fund many important federal programs is distributed to the states on the basis of population, so everyone in Massachusetts has a major stake in ensuring that we are not shortchanged by failing to get an accurate population count,” warned U.S. Rep. Edward Markey (D-Malden), the senior member of the state’s congressional delegation.

The next U.S. Census kicks off in about three years. The state’s current population is slightly more than 6.5 million.

A Census immigrant expert who this week is visiting Framingham, where there is a large Brazilian community, vowed the Census questionnaire will reach everybody using the latest street lists and even global-positioning systems.

“We take our responsibility very seriously,” said Cesar Monzon, a Boston Census Bureau specialist.

Monzon said Census officials struggle to track down foreign-born men age 18 to 44 and their children, even though the Census demands they be counted.

Kathleen Ludgate, executive director of the U.S. Census Bureau’s Boston region, said yesterday her office is out earlier to solve the immigrant puzzle in time for the 2010 count.

“We’re working with all communities to get the most accurate count we can,” she said.

Galvin said Cambodians in Lowell, Russians in Westfield, Brazilians in Framingham and Latinos in Lawrence are all target groups. He added college students must be counted, too.

So where is the over reaction?

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

So where is the over reaction?

Cat

Instead of counting illegal aliens, all that is really necessary is just to count the dead as they do in very big city election. Or, they could do what they do in NYC, which is to have certain groups counted multiple times. [In NYC they load groups of young men in vans and drive them from polling place to polling place to vote early and then often.]

 

[SeaCat]

Instead of counting illegal aliens, all that is really necessary is just to count the dead as they do in very big city election. Or, they could do what they do in NYC, which is to have certain groups counted multiple times. [In NYC they load groups of young men in vans and drive them from polling place to polling place to vote early and then often.]

Amusing and quite possibly true. (I can't say for certain as I don't live in N.Y.C.)

However, how is the counting of Illegals an over reaction? I can think of many uses, good uses and not deportation hearings, that this information could be put to.

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

Amusing and quite possibly true. (I can't say for certain as I don't live in N.Y.C.)

However, how is the counting of Illegals an over reaction? I can think of many uses, good uses and not deportation hearings, that this information could be put to.

Cat

The counting of illegals is a conspiracy to violate the law. If a census just counts people, so be it. If a census says that they encourage illegals as a part of society, it is a conspiracy to violate the law.

By the way, to forestall the charges of discrimination against people of certain national origin, many of the Massachusetts illegals are Irish.

If the US is to have immigration laws, then they need to be enforced. If the US wants to operate without immigration laws, then repeal said laws. Selective enforcement of laws leads to even greater abuses by the scumbags.

 

[SeaCat]

The counting of illegals is a conspiracy to violate the law. If a census just counts people, so be it. If a census says that they encourage illegals as a part of society, it is a conspiracy to violate the law.

By the way, to forestall the charges of discrimination against people of certain national origin, many of the Massachusetts illegals are Irish.

If the US is to have immigration laws, then they need to be enforced. If the US wants to operate without immigration laws, then repeal said laws. Selective enforcement of laws leads to even greater abuses by the scumbags.

LOLOL

R. Richard. Read the article again. It in now way encourages the illegal immigration of anyone. Instead it states that the state of Massachussetts is trying to get a handle on the number of illegals so they can use these numbers to keep their seats in Senate and maybe continue getting money for the state.

There has been talk down here about doing a census of the illegal community. One of the reasons behind this is because of the amount of money the state pays for said illegals. Some of this money can be recouped by tapping the federal till. One of the recipients of this money would be your local hospital.

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

LOLOL

R. Richard. Read the article again. It in now way encourages the illegal immigration of anyone. Instead it states that the state of Massachussetts is trying to get a handle on the number of illegals so they can use these numbers to keep their seats in Senate and maybe continue getting money for the state.

There has been talk down here about doing a census of the illegal community. One of the reasons behind this is because of the amount of money the state pays for said illegals. Some of this money can be recouped by tapping the federal till. One of the recipients of this money would be your local hospital.

Cat

Cat:
The immigrants are illegal, that is admitted by everyone. Trying to make money off illegal activities is illegal. Just because a state says it OK, doesn't make a difference. The immigration laws are Federal laws that trump state laws. Saying that the money is for a good purpose begs the question.

There is no federal till as such. Your "federal till" is properly called the US taxpayer.

 

[SeaCat]

Cat:
The immigrants are illegal, that is admitted by everyone. Trying to make money off illegal activities is illegal. Just because a state says it OK, doesn't make a difference. The immigration laws are Federal laws that trump state laws. Saying that the money is for a good purpose begs the question.

There is no federal till as such. Your "federal till" is properly called the US taxpayer.

Yes Richard,

The immigration Laws are Federal Laws. As such they should be enforced on a Federal Level which more and more they are not. The enforcement of these laws is being forced upon the local agencies, the ones you so casually call the Scumbags. They have enough to do dealing with the local laws and ordinances.

As for the Federal Till being properly called the U.S. Taxpayer. Don't I know it.

Now let me give you a wonderful example of how the illegals affect us. I work for a local hospital, as you very well know. This Hospital in the last year lost over $12 million dollars to illegal aliens seeking medical care. This is a smaller hospital. (One of our neighboring hospitals, one with a Trauma Center lost more than twice this amount.)

Okay, this seems like a trivial amount to some, but multiply that by all of the hospitals in America.

Did you realise that it is a federal law that a hospital can't turn away a person because of their innability to pay? Yes this does include Illegals. So a hospital must take on the care of anyone who comes through their E.R. Doors by Federal Law. The Federal Government, which made this law, does not pay the hospitals back for this care. These losses are passed on in several ways.

The first is the limitation of the pay and hiring of new staff members. Yep, one of the reasons your hospital is understaffed is because it keeps losing money. The second is the Hospital asks for more money from the Insurance Companies, who pass this added expense along to you. At a much higher amount I might add.

Believe it or not, it would be much cheaper to the American Taxpayer to subsidize this care through taxes than it is through the Insurance Companies.

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

Yes Richard,

The immigration Laws are Federal Laws. As such they should be enforced on a Federal Level which more and more they are not. The enforcement of these laws is being forced upon the local agencies, the ones you so casually call the Scumbags. They have enough to do dealing with the local laws and ordinances.

I don;t know about where you live, but where I live the scumbags spend most of their time guarding a downtown doughnut shop.

As for the Federal Till being properly called the U.S. Taxpayer. Don't I know it.

Now let me give you a wonderful example of how the illegals affect us. I work for a local hospital, as you very well know. This Hospital in the last year lost over $12 million dollars to illegal aliens seeking medical care. This is a smaller hospital. (One of our neighboring hospitals, one with a Trauma Center lost more than twice this amount.)

Okay, this seems like a trivial amount to some, but multiply that by all of the hospitals in America.

Did you realise that it is a federal law that a hospital can't turn away a person because of their innability to pay? Yes this does include Illegals. So a hospital must take on the care of anyone who comes through their E.R. Doors by Federal Law. The Federal Government, which made this law, does not pay the hospitals back for this care. These losses are passed on in several ways.

Cat, I am well aware of the situation. There is a simple solution. Your hospital Administration calls the local FBI office for an agent to arrest a person who is violating US immigration laws. The call is most likely automatically transferred to the local doughnut shop. The FBI laughs in the face of the hospital Administration. The hospital Administration then prints out a letter of complaint against the person listed as being in charge of the local FBI office. The complaint is then delivered to the Congressperson for the district in which the hospital is located. [Note: Not a complaint against the FBI, a complaint against Joe/Josephine Chief Agent.] Congresspersons don't like letters of complaint. Unanswered they bulit a groundswell of resentment that means defeat in the next election. The Congressperson then talks to Joe/Josephine Chief Agent. The Chief Agent sobs that he/she/it doesn't have the personnel to enforce the law. The Congresperson carefully points out that there is a list of volunteers to be deputized to enforce the law. The Chief Agent will not take "amateurs." If the pressure continues, the law will be enforced, there will be a new Chief Agent or the Congressperson will have to explain why the law is not being enforced.

The first is the limitation of the pay and hiring of new staff members. Yep, one of the reasons your hospital is understaffed is because it keeps losing money. The second is the Hospital asks for more money from the Insurance Companies, who pass this added expense along to you. At a much higher amount I might add.

Actually, this last a major problem. I don't have an acceptable answer. Your Congressperson does have the answer. [I know you doubt this last.] If at each meeting with the local Congressperson, the question keeps getting asked, the local Congressperson will come up with a workable answer, his/her/its job depends upon it.

Believe it or not, it would be much cheaper to the American Taxpayer to subsidize this care through taxes than it is through the Insurance Companies.

Cat

Your last statement is a major fallacy. It is a bit cheaper, due to economy of scale, for the American Taxpayer to subsidize the care, IN THE BEGINING! Once the word is out that there is free health care, the demand increases exponentially. [This is not theory. Over the last 50 years, nearly every American business of major size has tried to provide health care for their workers. The costs quickly rise to the point where, even with a company subsidy, many workers can't pay for insurance.]

What Massachusetts is attempting to do is to grab off more than its share of Federal money. Once the rest of the states see how it works, everybody plays the game and tax rates go WAY UP!

 

[cloudy]

Your last statement is a major fallacy. It is a bit cheaper, due to economy of scale, for the American Taxpayer to subsidize the care, IN THE BEGINING! Once the word is out that there is free health care, the demand increases exponentially. [This is not theory. Over the last 50 years, nearly every American business of major size has tried to provide health care for their workers. The costs quickly rise to the point where, even with a company subsidy, many workers can't pay for insurance.

You think people don't already know?

Oh, please.

It amazes me that you despise cops so much, yet want so much for laws to be enforced so strongly. It's a bit hypocritical.

eta: I would much rather our law enforcement spend their time catching people like rapists and murderers, rather than running around after illegals who are only here to try to improve their lives.

 

[TE999]

Oh boy, here we go again.

The short version is that as long as illegal immigrants provide an inexpensive, willing and plentiful labor force they will be allowed in the U.S. one way or the other; the 'guest worker' program, et. al.

They are fast becoming pawns in a political chess game of momumental proportions. Both the Donk's and the 'phant's are slavering after their votes and their strong backs, and will put both to good use. It's a one up game of pandering using the taxpayers dollar as the jackpot.

Although, if the 'illegals' can pay taxes, they're on the same carousel to nowhere as the rest of us. Out of the right pocket, into the left, and so on. Guess who wins? The politicians and the government.

Let the poor devils in, give 'em a job, let 'em pay taxes and vote. A shadow labor force enables a false economy; no good for anyone.

And yes, they do jobs that our citizens will not or cannot do. And quite well. thank you.

 

[R. Richard]

You think people don't already know?

Oh, please.

It amazes me that you despise cops so much, yet want so much for laws to be enforced so strongly. It's a bit hypocritical.

eta: I would much rather our law enforcement spend their time catching people like rapists and murderers, rather than running around after illegals who are only here to try to improve their lives.

I despise scumbags precisely because they don't enforce laws. If they would either enforce ALL the laws or go away and eat doughnuts somewhere, things would be much better.

One of the problems I have with the scumbags is that they allow politics to interfere with the job that they are hired to do. In the area where I live, there are two pimps operating and preying on young girls and the area in general [they hire cheap, unskilled muscle.] They should both be in prison, but they have some sort of hold on the local politicians and thus on the scumbags.

There is a local farming operation that uses illegals. They also violate every health and safety rule in the book. The ass hole who runs the operation on a day by day basis is a true criminal. He forces the illegals to work in situations that are destructine to the health of said illegal aliens. There is a simple solution to the problem, but the scumbags will arrest anyone who is capable of solving the problem if anything happens to the ass hole. [This may shock you, but the scumbags, who don't have the manpower to enforce local laws do have the boypower to come and threaten a law abiding citizen who has never made any statement about illegally solving local problems. This harrassment was made after some ass hole complained about threats against him. The threats were later traced to a local motorcycle group who may be distributing crank. They apparently don't like people who obtain their stuff and don't pay.]

Cloudy, most of the illegals here are very poor people who are here out of desperation. They can't earn a living wage back home, so they come here. They work and pay taxes. However, among the tide of illegal workers, there are illegals who are criminals. The local scumbags are afraid of the illegals who are criminals and they will not deal with them, nor will they let the local citizens deal with the criminals.

Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

 

[SeaCat]

I don;t know about where you live, but where I live the scumbags spend most of their time guarding a downtown doughnut shop.


Cat, I am well aware of the situation. There is a simple solution. Your hospital Administration calls the local FBI office for an agent to arrest a person who is violating US immigration laws. The call is most likely automatically transferred to the local doughnut shop. The FBI laughs in the face of the hospital Administration. The hospital Administration then prints out a letter of complaint against the person listed as being in charge of the local FBI office. The complaint is then delivered to the Congressperson for the district in which the hospital is located. [Note: Not a complaint against the FBI, a complaint against Joe/Josephine Chief Agent.] Congresspersons don't like letters of complaint. Unanswered they bulit a groundswell of resentment that means defeat in the next election. The Congressperson then talks to Joe/Josephine Chief Agent. The Chief Agent sobs that he/she/it doesn't have the personnel to enforce the law. The Congresperson carefully points out that there is a list of volunteers to be deputized to enforce the law. The Chief Agent will not take "amateurs." If the pressure continues, the law will be enforced, there will be a new Chief Agent or the Congressperson will have to explain why the law is not being enforced.


Actually, this last a major problem. I don't have an acceptable answer. Your Congressperson does have the answer. [I know you doubt this last.] If at each meeting with the local Congressperson, the question keeps getting asked, the local Congressperson will come up with a workable answer, his/her/its job depends upon it.


Your last statement is a major fallacy. It is a bit cheaper, due to economy of scale, for the American Taxpayer to subsidize the care, IN THE BEGINING! Once the word is out that there is free health care, the demand increases exponentially. [This is not theory. Over the last 50 years, nearly every American business of major size has tried to provide health care for their workers. The costs quickly rise to the point where, even with a company subsidy, many workers can't pay for insurance.]

What Massachusetts is attempting to do is to grab off more than its share of Federal money. Once the rest of the states see how it works, everybody plays the game and tax rates go WAY UP!

R. Richard,

I will not try to answer everything here for I do not have all of the answers. Nt to mention we obviously come at the Immigration Problems from two very different viewpoints.

One thing I will address is your views on the costs of Medical Insurance and why it is hitting the workers so hard. I will even use my situation to try and illustrate it.

There are currently two things diving the costs of medicine up. One is the threats of lawsuits and the other is the insurance companies themselves.

Now you would think that I, working in a hospital as I do, would have excellent medical coverage. Think again. My Hospital does not take care of it's patients in house, it relies on outside Insurance companies. These companies raise their rates on a yearly basis, they are after al in the bussiness to make money. They raise their premiums, which are passed on to my hospital. The management in my hospital, on a yearly basis looks at the Insurance Programs out there and decides which one can meet the needs of the staff while not costing the hospital a fortune. (The Hospital is also looking to make a profit remember.) The Hospital decides which plan meets the staffs basic needs and also decides on how much it is going to pay into the plan. What they don't pay is passed on to the staff. In almost six years I have had five different plans, each one costing more and covering less.

Why is this allowed to happen? Because the regulators for the Insurance Commisions both state and federal are on the payrolls of the Insurance companies. (Oops, let's allow the Fox to guard the HenHouse.)

The other factor is the threat of lawsuits. The Hospitals as well as the Doctors and Staff have to carry Insurance to protect us against lawsuits. Why? Because everyone is out to get the big bucks. The rates for this type of insurance is incredible, and it is going up. Why?

Well recently we had a case here in Southern Florida. A man walked into a local Hospital complaining of a massive Belly Ache. Tests were done and the M.D. on duty checked him out. It looked like Appendacitis, which the Doc. told him. He needed his Appendix out. The patient said he needed to call his wife and let her know. He walked out.

Ten hours later he was back in the E.R. This time he was a truly sick puppy. His Appendix had burst. He had the toxins throughout his belly and was in bad shape. He had emergency surgery and spent the next several days in the hospital.

He is currently suing that hospital as well as the attending M.D. and the Nurses in the E.R. Why? Because they didn't tell him that without the surgery his Appendix could burst and he would then spend a much longer time in the hospital, not to mention risk becoming dead.

He might win. even if he loses he is not liable for the Legal fees the Hospital, the Doctor and the Nurses will gather in their defense. Their insurance will pay these, and then pass these expenses on to us with higher premiums.

Cat

 

[SeaCat]

I despise scumbags precisely because they don't enforce laws. If they would either enforce ALL the laws or go away and eat doughnuts somewhere, things would be much better.

One of the problems I have with the scumbags is that they allow politics to interfere with the job that they are hired to do. In the area where I live, there are two pimps operating and preying on young girls and the area in general [they hire cheap, unskilled muscle.] They should both be in prison, but they have some sort of hold on the local politicians and thus on the scumbags.

There is a local farming operation that uses illegals. They also violate every health and safety rule in the book. The ass hole who runs the operation on a day by day basis is a true criminal. He forces the illegals to work in situations that are destructine to the health of said illegal aliens. There is a simple solution to the problem, but the scumbags will arrest anyone who is capable of solving the problem if anything happens to the ass hole. [This may shock you, but the scumbags, who don't have the manpower to enforce local laws do have the boypower to come and threaten a law abiding citizen who has never made any statement about illegally solving local problems. This harrassment was made after some ass hole complained about threats against him. The threats were later traced to a local motorcycle group who may be distributing crank. They apparently don't like people who obtain their stuff and don't pay.]

Cloudy, most of the illegals here are very poor people who are here out of desperation. They can't earn a living wage back home, so they come here. They work and pay taxes. However, among the tide of illegal workers, there are illegals who are criminals. The local scumbags are afraid of the illegals who are criminals and they will not deal with them, nor will they let the local citizens deal with the criminals.

Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

R. Richard,

I won't bore you with the horror stories I hear from my friends who are in Law Enforcement. I will say this though. The ones who go about flaunting the law get taken down, and get taken down hard by the others.

Most of what you have said above does not give the whole story, just the story from your viewpoint.

You have made claims for playing with Uncle Sam, as have I and many others here, so I will put this in a way that you can understand. (Although with your prejudices I don't know why I bother.)

The average cop is like the soldier on the front line. He is out there following orders. He has laws he has to enforce regardles of if he agrees with them or not. In many cases he has to run on what his gut tells him. I'll give you an example and you tell me who fucked up.

Jim had a history with the cops. He had been busted for dealing among other things. He liked the flash and he liked to give the cops a hard time. His grandfather died and left him some money. This was at a atime when Jim had decided to turn his life around. He got out of dealing, in fact he used the money his grandfather had given him to go to school out of state. He graduated and got himself a good paying job. Yet he didn't change some things about himself. He still wore the Bling and he still liked the flash.

He returned home to visit and was pulled over by the Cops. Hell he was driving a Lexus in a high crime area. He had more Gold on him than Fort Knox, and he had blown through a red light. The cops remembered him.

They searched him and his car, and both came up clean. They let him go with a warning but they kept their eyes on him.

They pulled him over several more times during the following week, each time he came up clean.

He left and then started a lawsuit against the local police for harrasment.

What Jim didn't know, nor care about, was when he returned there was an increase in the amounts of Crack on the streets. He had vanished fora while then returned driving Flash Wheels at the same time there was an increase of his drug of choice. All he cared about was he was getting hassled by the "Pigs".

He didn't try to tell them he had turned his life around, in fact all he did was give them shit.

So who was in the wrong Richard?

Was it the cops fr looking at cause and effect or was it hi for not trying to explain that he had turned his life around?

Cat