Outlines

[dr_mabeuse]

I. I think they suck

A. Especially for longer pieces, like novels and novellas

B. I have to make an outline for a half-finished novelI'm working on. I wrote the first half without an outline and don't know what's going to happen in the second half yet, and now I went back and based the outline on what I'd written and so the first half of the outline is very detailed, and the second half is just blank and I still have no idea of what's going to happen in the story and I'll probably never know until I finish writing the story - without an outline.

C. Of course, the outline's not in this A.B.C. format, so I'll stop being cute now, but the reason outlines suck for me is that outlines are about the story. They're written from above it or outside it looking down on it, like an overview. When I'm actually writing, though, I'm inside the story, surrounded by it, and I see things I didn't see from Outline view.

For instance, when I'm writing an outline, I might have Janet leave Al and have Al feel all sad and blue so that he jumps off a bridge. But then, when I'm actually writing the thing and I'm in there all wrapped up in being Al, I suddenly realize Al doesn't feel blue at all. He's actually relieved and glad as hell, and there goes my bridge-jumping scene. Apparently I don't have powers of concentration sufficient to keep myself focused on Al long enough to make it through an outline. I have to be in the story, walking through it, and the only way I can maintain that level on concentration is by writing,

This thing I'm working on is pretty complicated, at least as far as my stuff goes. I'm wondering, for you people who use outlines, how do you think about complicated stories? Do you picture them as like chessboards and see the characters from above as they move around and interact?

Do you attach yourself to one character and use him or her as your POV?

Do you make charts and graphs? Index cards and all that?

I remember Black Shanglan once being all excited because he'd gotten himself a big whiteboard and he could map out all these connections and interactions (or "it". I forgot.)

Plots are a big pain in the ass.

 

[Grushenka]

Plots are a big pain in the ass.

Yes, and the least important part of any narrative (except for murder mysteries). I've never used outlines, not even for a novel-length work. You say you 'have to' write one so I presume a publisher's requested it. Can you give them what you have and perhaps some general idea of where the story might go. I would think it's not uncommon for a publisher to hear.

 

[impressive]

I met an author at the RT convention last month who admitted to running great swaths of rolled paper along both sides of her hallway for outlining. I thought it rather excessive. I'm a "pantser," apparently. Writing solo, I might have a couple notes, but that's the extent of it. With Bel, we "plot" during conversation, but typically don't write it down.

 

[rgraham666]

So far, yes. I have attached myself to one character. I'm just more comfortable writing that way.

If I outline, it's entirely in my head. I think and think about a story until the entire arc is clear and I have at least some visualization of each of the scenes in it. There's usually very few characters in them so I can keep the interactions inside my brain.

I suspect this method limits me somewhat. It's the reason all my work to date is novella size or smaller. That bugged me a little until recently. Published work is supposed to be novels. I'm learning better.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Doc,

Outlines are more of a pain in the ass for short stories than anything else. A short story has a life of it's own. It needs to be free to roam where ever it want's too.

I've tried the same thing on longer pieces and found I have to have an outline of sorts because there are so many characters with so many relationships it's hard to keep them straight for the six to twelve months it takes to write the story.

Typically the plot is only the barest of outlines. To do much more kills the creative side. Mine typically is something like:

Wendy and Bob meet in Chicago at the Airport ... They have an affair... She dumps him and goes back to her husband. That's it.

What happens in between is a matter of just letting the story flow.

 

[shereads]

Is Al a pirate? If he is, and if Janet is or could become a prim but plucky schoolteacher disguised as a cabin boy to escape from the evil overlord of Zardox, Lost City of the Vampires, I'll write your outline.

 

[Trombonus]

I think for me it's a little bit of everything. For short things I tend to attach mywriting to a character or two. For longer stuff or stories with multiple chapters I'll make a brief overview of what's going to happen in each chapter. I had to use a spreadsheet and several hand written tables for my latest story that will be used in the AH Fantasy chain. There are 76 characters in the story, and I had to use the spreadsheet to keep all my information organized and readily accessible. Then I had to plan out pairings and who would appear in which section of the story. Without the tables and spreadsheet I would have been completely lost.

 

[rachlou]

I can't write with an outline - it just kills the story for me. I am like you in that I immerse myself in the characters and actually live the story as I am writing it. Things happen as the story progresses, usually contrary to what I expected might happen. I generally have a vague idea of where it's all heading when I start the story - but the middle parts are just grey mist in terms of plot. The story takes shape as the characters do.

If i sat down and wrote a detailed outline, I'd feel like the story was finished and therefore I'd never probably never write another word of it.

I can see how an outline probably helps in stories with many complex sub-plots and mulitple characters. But so far, I haven;t wrtten anything so complicated. I invariably seem to end up with two main characters and a another two or three minor characters. Not too difficult to keep track off..

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Zoot, think in terms of a GUIDELINE or MAP, not "shudder" OUTLINE.

The very word OUTLINE chills many writers. They flashback to high school English class and begin worrying if little Roman numerials come before or after small cap letters or some such crap.

Whatever name is use, IT is just a tool to help a writer get a "big picture" of what has happend, the current situation, and where they kinda, possibly might want the whole thing to go.

Outlines aren't that big a deal for short stories or plot-driven novels. But depending on the writer, they can be anything from handy to essential for character-driven tales, especially those with sub-plots and multiple POV's.

Rumple's Ridiculously Rudimentary Rule for using outlines in fiction clearly states: An outline is the writer's creation and is NOT chiseled in stone. If the story and characters evolve and change, as they tend to do, then change the frazzling outline.

About POV's: My first novel used two. My second novel had three.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I hate them. Rarely use them. Although I've had to, a few times... I'm a plot follower... I follow where the plot wants to go, I don't create it. It just happens. Sometimes I have an idea what the ending will be. Sometimes I don't. Most of it, like someone said, is gray mist... and only takes shape as I'm writing. Even when I DO outline, things change. Which is why I don't think I could ever submit something in the "3 chapters and a synopsis" form. Because the synopsis could change by the time I was finished writing...

 

[S-Des]

I like writing outlines. I see stories like movies in my head. I'll think out much of the story (beginning, middle, end), and include many of the really important twists. If I don't write these out, it's too easy to lose really good ideas (and I do much of my 'writing' while I drive, so vague ideas are mostly what I remember). All of my stories are fairly long, and the outline helps me think them out. It isn't overly detailed, just enough to keep me on track when I'm writing. After a story is finished, I have gone back and looked at the outline only to find that I wandered from many of my original ideas anyway, so I don't treat it like something that prevents me from letting my story breathe.

 

[Grushenka]

About POV's: My first novel used two. My second novel had three.

Pray tell, is there a third? and how many POVs?

 

[fcdc]

I use the Snowflake method, and that seems to be suitably organic for writing a novel. I'm about two-thirds through a historical work (first person) and completed a fantasy work (multiple viewpoints) using that, and found it flexible enough to appeal to the non-rule-liking side of me, but structured enough to keep me focused. Granted, both of those are 70,000 words-plus, so it may not apply as well to shorter works.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

If I don't write these out, it's too easy to lose really good ideas (and I do much of my 'writing' while I drive, so vague ideas are mostly what I remember).

That's interesting. See, I kind of rely on my faulty memory as a filter. I figure if I have to write an idea down to remember it, then it probably wasn't very good. The good ones stay with me.

This story's a thrilllller, so it's highly structured. That's my problem. The beginning was beautiful. Everything just fell into place in ways I hadn't even anticipated. I just stood and watched in astonishment and applauded. The ending all fits together too. The middle doesn't work. So it's kind of like Meryl Streep's face in that regard.

I like what Stephen King said about writing, He said it's like exhuming a fossil. You never know what you've got when you start, anbd you keep on brushing away the dirt and exposing more and more, and then a shape starts to appear and pretty soon - oh look! It's a skull! Or it's a femur! Or it's only a piece of rock!

Eudora Welty said she writes because she wants to find out what's going to happen.

When a publisher asks for an outline, I've got to think that's what they mean - just an idea of where the story's going. I see that some of them ask for an outline, some ask for a synopsis. I can't believe there's really a formal difference. At least I hope not, although I was looking at some samples on the web and I saw where some of the synopses (pl?) had categories for "characters", "tone", "mood", and stuff like that.

I figure I'll just come up with some ending and send them what I have, and if they complain I'll tell them it's only an outline. I can always change the story.

What's worse is a query letter. Have you guys ever messed around with a query letter? These things really have me scared now.

 

[maggot420]

I wrote part of story and it got longer and longer and I realized I probably needed an outline to keep things straight. So I wrote an outline but then we got into an arguement about where the story should go and we haven't spoken since so my story remains unfinished and I still don't know where it's going to go.

I think outlines suck.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I don't use outlines. Everything is done from my head. I have rough sketch in my head of what is going to happen and when. That's all I use.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Pray tell, is there a third? and how many POVs?

The third's still in the "think" stage but odds are it'll be just one POV. All are in third-person past. No formula. I just try to figure out (guess) what will do the best job of telling the story.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[carsonshepherd]

I wrote part of story and it got longer and longer and I realized I probably needed an outline to keep things straight. So I wrote an outline but then we got into an arguement about where the story should go and we haven't spoken since so my story remains unfinished and I still don't know where it's going to go.

I think outlines suck.

Me too. If I outline a story, for some reason it's dead.
Query letters are worse than resumes. Good luck, Doc.

 

[Boota]

I don't use outlines, per se, but Christopher Moore, my favorite Author Guy, demonstrated a technique he uses to map his novels on his website and it works great for me. It puts in the key points, chronology, and such, while leaving loads of room for spontaneity and thinking on your feet. The story can change and the map doesn't become invalid because of it. It's a very loose way to work yet still keep a handle on the twists and turns. I wish I had known the technique on Mr. Undesirable. It's made things so much easier in the planning stages and doesn't bog me down with boredom by making me feel like the story is already written.

 

[gauchecritic]

I've only written short stuff, short enough to keep in my head, but on a couple of occasions, I happened to be working with well known stories (Sleeping Beauty, The Emperor's New Clothes) and found working to an outline quite freeing rather than constricting.
I wandered around with characters, added scenes and sub-plots but always had somewhere to come back to.

Like quite a few people I enjoy having a story unveiled to me as I type.

The one time I had to write a synopsis for a competition entry, it sucked wholly and completely.

Maybe it might help if you write a short story Zoot, which you know has the elements needed for the novel. Sounds like a synopsis to me!

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I don't use outlines, per se, but Christopher Moore, my favorite Author Guy, demonstrated a technique he uses to map his novels on his website and it works great for me. It puts in the key points, chronology, and such, while leaving loads of room for spontaneity and thinking on your feet. The story can change and the map doesn't become invalid because of it. It's a very loose way to work yet still keep a handle on the twists and turns. I wish I had known the technique on Mr. Undesirable. It's made things so much easier in the planning stages and doesn't bog me down with boredom by making me feel like the story is already written.

Thaks, Boota. Sounds like he's laid out in a clear, understandable manner what I've been blathering about incoherently. I'll check out his site.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[gauchecritic]

It's made things so much easier in the planning stages and doesn't bog me down with boredom by making me feel like the story is already written.

Just to add. Good point there Boota. 'Already written' that's how I feel about planning.

 

[Boota]

The "already written" part is the key to it for me. In order to keep plot and key story points where they need to be, and to make sure that I don't overlook something, I need a plan on novel length pieces. Too much planning, however, would kill the story in my head and it would die on the page soon after.

 

[Huckleman2000]

I'm almost positive this won't help at all, but on the off chance...

When improvising a scene onstage, sometimes you just have a word or two as a take-off point, sometimes you have a "goal" that you're supposed to make happen. Liken the former to working without an outline, and the latter to working with one.

The rule of thumb in the 'open-ended' improvisation is to always say "yes, and...". That way, you're not closing off the creativity of the others in the scene, and you're also building on it yourself. You usually don't have any idea where it's going to lead, but sooner or later someone is going to say something that will bring it full-circle, or at least get a laugh, and you get to the blackout.

If you've got a plan, then it's best not to work it all out in front of an audience, since some choices that each actor makes might lead to dead ends, and then you have to go back and try to come at it from another POV, or work something out that satisfies the motivations of all the characters involved. Or, change the goals and shift the plot necessities to another scene.

If that helps anyone, great! If not, sorry.

 

[Penelope Street]

This thing I'm working on is pretty complicated, at least as far as my stuff goes. I'm wondering, for you people who use outlines, how do you think about complicated stories? Do you picture them as like chessboards and see the characters from above as they move around and interact?

Do you make charts and graphs? Index cards and all that?

Chessboard? LOL. So not! No charts or graphs or index cards either.

But I do use outlines for stories, especially the longer, complicated ones. I start with the scantest of outlines- usually just a note for each scene- something like this:

...
(d) The one person I didn't give my new address to was my insurance agent...

(e) Drive home

(f) Sandy arrives
...

After that, I start filling in the blanks- first more notes, maybe some dialogue, and then the scenes, starting with the ones I want to write the most . Rarely do I write in sequential order. While I try to finish one scene before working on another, I will make notes in the other scenes, like "Show the reader the knives somewhere in here." Like Rumple says, my outline is a tool, nothing more- I'll delete, add, or move scenes when I see a need.

The stories for which I don't outlines are usually the ones that just grab me and I finish them within a day or two. Often I don't know what will happen and, like Eudora, I am anxious to find out. And sometimes I don't find out. I have no idea how many stories lost their hold on me and now sit, just the way I left them after those few frantic days.

Do you attach yourself to one character and use him or her as your POV?

Yes!

That's interesting. See, I kind of rely on my faulty memory as a filter. I figure if I have to write an idea down to remember it, then it probably wasn't very good. The good ones stay with me.

Well, your faulty memory is better than my faulty memory because I used to think of 'great' lines and scenes and then I'd forget them. Or maybe this means they weren't great after all? Anyway, I carry a little tape recorder in my purse now, in case I think of something during my day.