Our medical system good? Think again

[cloudy]

Tell me again how the US is the most progessive country...I really want to believe it, but the proof is in how our poorest citizens are treated: For want of insurance, boy dies of toothache complications.

I hate it here. *sigh*

eta: This child could probably have been many of ours. We don't have insurance, just like these folks.

 

[oggbashan]

Unfortunately that could happen in the UK as well. It is very difficult to get dental treatment on our National Health Service because the Government changed the contract with dentists about a year ago. Before that it was difficult to find a dentist willing to undertake NHS dentistry because of the bureaucracy. The changed contract was considered to make life worse for dentists, and now there are very few NHS dentists and almost none willing to take new patients. Most dentists now work privately, funded by dental insurance schemes.

Emergency dental treatment can be obtained at the local hospital, but not continuing dental care.

Og

 

[Selena_Kitt]

This happened to my husband, but the bacteria went the other way... down into his neck and throat. We were uninsured (he was a WEEK from having 90 days at his job and us having insurance) and he had been to the dentist, who said he needed a root canal, gave him antibiotics, and said he'd see him in a week. He warned us that the area under his jaw might swell, if the abscess began to drain down, and it did... it swelled and swelled and swelled... But it wasn't the pus from the abscess... it was gas collecting from a flesh-eating bacteria eating all the flesh in his neck! (kind of like gangrene on the inside... there's nowhere for the gas to escape, so the areas swells...) We didn't know that, of course... but I just KNEW there was something wrong, although he kept saying he was going to wait for insurance to kick in. I let him be stubborn for almost a week until I insisted we go to the ER. NOW, tonight, at midnight, do not pass go, do not collect $200. It was a good thing I did... the doc said another HOUR and the bacteria would have severed his corotid artery. He had a gaping hole in his neck 8 inches long and four inches wide and they gave him a 50/50 chance of making it through the night.

All from an abscessed tooth.

He made it, thank god, but we heard a story from one of the ICU nurses about a child similar to the one in this story, a little girl, who had an abscess in a top tooth, and the bacteria entered her brain. She died, too.

I agree, Cloudy. There are problems with both systems (ours and socialized medicine) but there are way too many people who fall through the cracks on both ends.

 

[oggbashan]

Complications from infected teeth will be treated by the NHS, emergency or not.

Anything life-threatening will be dealt with at an Accident and Emergency Unit at no cost.

But routine dental treatment is almost impossible. UK youngsters are heading back to their unenviable lead as having the worst teeth in Europe.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

The problem with public medical care here in Canada is that for the most part the people in charge of it don't believe in it.

So they starve it of funds, then use the problems this causes to 'prove' that public medicine doesn't work so they can return it to the private sector.

Plus, in the minds of the people in charge, the poor are sinners, and so deserve to be punished for sinning.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Unfortunatly, the drunken Senator from MA is right about a national health insurance plan. The way it is in this country, the insurance companies are collecting billions in premiums, while paying out only about 15% of the dollars collected. They are getting rich while raising their rates to the point where only a well-to-do can afford them. Then the cry and scream because they had to pay anything at all.

It's long past time for the social system to step in and make health care affordable to everyone.

 

[Chantilyvamp]

I can honestly say both sides of the pond sucks at healthcare at times. On one side (state side) health insurance if expensive and a lot of people dont have it.

We didn't for most of the time we grew up and my mom and little brother don't have any now.

Then you have here in the UK where by the time you get done getting off the waiting list you could already have an advanced disease or be near death.

So either way (at least where i was and in the area I am now), best way to get good treatment is private healthcare

 

[matriarch]

Complications from infected teeth will be treated by the NHS, emergency or not.

Anything life-threatening will be dealt with at an Accident and Emergency Unit at no cost.

But routine dental treatment is almost impossible. UK youngsters are heading back to their unenviable lead as having the worst teeth in Europe.

Og

Og, as far as I am aware, dental treatment for all school age children, under the age of 18 is free on NHS. And every schoolchild SHOULD have access to a school dentist for treatment, I used them for my two for as long as I could, at the local clinic.

 

[oggbashan]

Og, as far as I am aware, dental treatment for all school age children, under the age of 18 is free on NHS. And every schoolchild SHOULD have access to a school dentist for treatment, I used them for my two for as long as I could, at the local clinic.

It IS free on the NHS but it is not accessible. There are now NO school dentists locally. There should be, but they are not there. The situation has worsened dramatically in the last year (since April 2006) when the new NHS contracts for dentists were implemented.

My middle daughter cannot get registered with an NHS dentist. The last time she searched for an NHS dentist who was taking on new NHS patients she was referred to one in Southend, visible across the Thames Estuary, but further to travel than Central London.

There is an emergency clinic at our local hospital that is staffed by volunteer dentists. Even in an emergency you have to ring to make an appointment and can expect a three hour wait for a temporary filling and "See your own dentist tomorrow...".

NHS dentistry in the SE is in crisis. I have had to change to an insurance plan. The good news is that it now costs me LESS than I had to pay for NHS charges. However, I am in a minority because I have mangled teeth from rugby and motorcycle accidents. My teeth require more frequent remedial work than most and the NHS charges each year ran into hundreds of pounds. Now I pay a fixed sum each month that covers everything.

Og

PS. I still HATE going to the dentist...

 

[SimonBrooke]

Complications from infected teeth will be treated by the NHS, emergency or not.

Anything life-threatening will be dealt with at an Accident and Emergency Unit at no cost.

But routine dental treatment is almost impossible. UK youngsters are heading back to their unenviable lead as having the worst teeth in Europe.

Og

It's getting better in Scotland - because our government has hired all the dentists from Poland (well, not all of then, but seeing the Polish had a really good health system under communism they had some going spare). I have to confess that I feel guilty towards the Poles, but we've now got enough dentists again. Now if we would just train enough dentists to keep up with demand, everything would be OK.

Bear in mind, also, that we in Britain spend less than half as much per capita on health as the US - their medical system is almost bizarrely inefficient.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

The Medical System in the US IS the best in the world, there just happen to be these so called Insurance Companies between us and it.

These insurance companies are not really selling insurance so much as a medical cost payment system. With most big companies the Insurance Carrier is just an administrative mechanism to distribute payment to the Medical System. The Employer actually pays those charges. The premium they collect from the employee and the portion they kick in are actually just fees for admin costs of the plan. So this is not, in a true sense, insurance.

And if the it were insurance it would be more like you auto insurance. You would get quotes from different companies and choose the one you like the best and it would stay with you as long as you lived. When you changed employers the policy would follow you, it's your's, not the companies.

Also, the amount the doctor, hospital, ECF(emergency care facility) charge is negotiated by the "Insurance Company". There is a big difference between what is charged and what is actually payed.

A typical office visit for me is $150.00 US but the Doctor only gets $20.00 from me for my co-pay and $78.46 from the "Insurance Company". So that's a discount of $51.54 from the Doctors charges.

At the same Doctor a self-pay patient is billed $75.00 US.

As for Medicaid and Medicare patients, god only knows what the government is being charged as the patient pays nothing.

 

[Vermilion]

The Medical System in the US IS the best in the world,

Well now, I;ve heard doctors debating this... just for the record I am in no way medically trained, just passing on what I've heard.

The US is not the best health care provider in the world - not just due to the whole health-insurance thing, but because of the extreme lack of diagnostic ability. Apparently the gulf between diagnostics in the UK & Australia and the USA is immense... An indication of this is House, the TV programme about a department of diagnostic medicine.

Apparently American doctors need to run a battery of tests to diagnose conditions, preferring, if possible to run MRI scans and tests before simply asking questions and examining the patient. Like I said, this is all hearsay, but UK/Aus. doctors are much better at pin-pointing conditions without so many invasive tests and, AFAIK, they have no need for specific 'diagnostics' departments, because all the doctors have a better training in diagnostics...

OK. Now someone who knows more than me can back that up or tear it down.

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[Zeb_Carter]

Well now, I;ve heard doctors debating this... just for the record I am in no way medically trained, just passing on what I've heard.

The US is not the best health care provider in the world - not just due to the whole health-insurance thing, but because of the extreme lack of diagnostic ability. Apparently the gulf between diagnostics in the UK & Australia and the USA is immense... An indication of this is House, the TV programme about a department of diagnostic medicine.

Apparently American doctors need to run a battery of tests to diagnose conditions, preferring, if possible to run MRI scans and tests before simply asking questions and examining the patient. Like I said, this is all hearsay, but UK/Aus. doctors are much better at pin-pointing conditions without so many invasive tests and, AFAIK, they have no need for specific 'diagnostics' departments, because all the doctors have a better training in diagnostics...

OK. Now someone who knows more than me can back that up or tear it down.

x
V

An MRI is not an invasive test, that is why it is used. It allow the diagnostician to see inside the body without and invasion of the body.

And it might be true that US Doctors have become so specialized and compartmentalized that there are very few diagnosticians floating around.

But, I have rarely been seen by more than one doctor for any condition I needed care for, my primary care physician was always able to pinpoint the area of expertise needed for my care.

 

[R. Richard]

Unfortunatly, the drunken Senator from MA is right about a national health insurance plan. The way it is in this country, the insurance companies are collecting billions in premiums, while paying out only about 15% of the dollars collected. They are getting rich while raising their rates to the point where only a well-to-do can afford them. Then the cry and scream because they had to pay anything at all.

It's long past time for the social system to step in and make health care affordable to everyone.

If you know of a health insurance plan that is only paying out 15% of the dollars collected, then you should report them to your state insurance commission. That sort of thing is illegal and each of the states regulates insurance companies.

If you decide not to report said insurance company, please post the name. I would sure as hell like to invest in the operation.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Well now, I;ve heard doctors debating this... just for the record I am in no way medically trained, just passing on what I've heard.

The US is not the best health care provider in the world - not just due to the whole health-insurance thing, but because of the extreme lack of diagnostic ability. Apparently the gulf between diagnostics in the UK & Australia and the USA is immense... An indication of this is House, the TV programme about a department of diagnostic medicine.

Apparently American doctors need to run a battery of tests to diagnose conditions, preferring, if possible to run MRI scans and tests before simply asking questions and examining the patient. Like I said, this is all hearsay, but UK/Aus. doctors are much better at pin-pointing conditions without so many invasive tests and, AFAIK, they have no need for specific 'diagnostics' departments, because all the doctors have a better training in diagnostics...

OK. Now someone who knows more than me can back that up or tear it down.

x
V

Well, I'm not a doctor...Oops, yes I am ...I'm not a physician but I was married to one for 10 years. I can assure you that all physicians who recieve medical degrees in the US are extensively trained in taking, reviewing, and interpreting a patients history. They do this PRIOR to running any tests. Whether or not they utlize that training is another issue. Ther'e always gonna be the quacks that make all look bad.

So I'm a little bit put off by your claims about the US being behind. And I wouldn't formulate opinions based on a television show that is not intended to be educational but entertaining. I mean really....

And an MRI is NOT an invasive procedure on the contrary.

 

[Vermilion]

An MRI is not an invasive test, that is why it is used. It allow the diagnostician to see inside the body without and invasion of the body.

And it might be true that US Doctors have become so specialized and compartmentalized that there are very few diagnosticians floating around.

But, I have rarely been seen by more than one doctor for any condition I needed care for, my primary care physician was always able to pinpoint the area of expertise needed for my care.

I wasn;t suggesting an MRI scan is invasive, but they *are* heinously expensive.

Blood tests, biopsies, spinal fluid tests - now they are all invasive...

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[Zeb_Carter]

I wasn;t suggesting an MRI scan is invasive, but they *are* heinously expensive.

Blood tests, biopsies, spinal fluid tests - now they are all invasive...

x
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Sure but only done when the diagnosies calls for them. If you come in with a headache they don't do liver biopsies, but if they think it might be a brain infection then they would do a spinal tap.

 

[S-Des]

Well now, I;ve heard doctors debating this... just for the record I am in no way medically trained, just passing on what I've heard.

The US is not the best health care provider in the world - not just due to the whole health-insurance thing, but because of the extreme lack of diagnostic ability. Apparently the gulf between diagnostics in the UK & Australia and the USA is immense... An indication of this is House, the TV programme about a department of diagnostic medicine.

Apparently American doctors need to run a battery of tests to diagnose conditions, preferring, if possible to run MRI scans and tests before simply asking questions and examining the patient. Like I said, this is all hearsay, but UK/Aus. doctors are much better at pin-pointing conditions without so many invasive tests and, AFAIK, they have no need for specific 'diagnostics' departments, because all the doctors have a better training in diagnostics...

OK. Now someone who knows more than me can back that up or tear it down.

x
V

Not a doctor either, but I'd say it's an equal balance of running more tests to make more money, and fear of litigation. The lawsuits in this country are staggering (anyone remember the imbecile who spilled her coffee on her lap, then sued for millions?). OBGYNs are especially at risk (depending on where you live). Where Kiten lives, it's incredibly difficult to sue doctors over complications (she has a story that's just frightening if you can get her to tell it), but in my state, doctors get sued over births that had little or no complications.

Zeb's right about the insurance, it's become a complete rip-off. My ex's insurance just jumped to a $3000/year deductible. I haven't spent $3000 on my health care in any year of my life, but now we're paying $1500/year, to have coverage that doesn't kick in until $3001. It's absolutely mind boggling. Unfortunately, none of us trust politicians to do the right thing, so how can we trust them to handle the health care system? I honestly can't imagine anyone coming up with an answer that works, or if they do, being able to get it through congress (where it would be opposed by trial lawyers, insurance companies, and doctors).

 

[Vermilion]

Well, I'm not a doctor...Oops, yes I am ...I'm not a physician but I was married to one for 10 years. I can assure you that all physicians who recieve medical degrees in the US are extensively trained in taking, reviewing, and interpreting a patients history. They do this PRIOR to running any tests. Whether or not they utlize that training is another issue. Ther'e always gonna be the quacks that make all look bad.

So I'm a little bit put off by your claims about the US being behind. And I wouldn't formulate opinions based on a television show that is not intended to be educational but entertaining. I mean really....

And an MRI is NOT an invasive procedure on the contrary.

Hey hey missus - calm down. It wasn;t an attack.

As previously stated I am not so stupid as to call an MRI invasive, when I said invasive I was referring to other tests. And I only referred to House as it is about a diagnostic department, something that doesn't really exist in the UK. Again - not so stupid as to think a TV programme is a genuine reflection of life.

I didn't say that the US is behind, either. I wouldn't - I don;t know enough about it to say that and even if what I said was right then having poor diagnostics doesn't infer that the entire profession is shite.

It's a different approach - specialisation v. generalisation, which is best?

Like I said - I am rather ignorant in this matter, was merely relating what I had heard because I was interested to hear what others thought - others who maybe knew a little more than me.

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[Vermilion]

Not a doctor either, but I'd say it's an equal balance of running more tests to make more money, and fear of litigation. The lawsuits in this country are staggering (anyone remember the imbecile who spilled her coffee on her lap, then sued for millions?). OBGYNs are especially at risk (depending on where you live). Where Kiten lives, it's incredibly difficult to sue doctors over complications (she has a story that's just frightening if you can get her to tell it), but in my state, doctors get sued over births that had little or no complications.

.

See, now maybe this is the missing part of what I've heard - it would certainly back it up. Not that doctors are unable to diagnose, but unable to act w/o a plethora of evidence as to why they did such and such.

Obviously this isn;t always a bad thing, but if it hinders healthcare or creates unnecessary and invasive tests then it is surely a problem...

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[Misty_Morning]

Hey hey missus - calm down. It wasn;t an attack.

As previously stated I am not so stupid as to call an MRI invasive, when I said invasive I was referring to other tests. And I only referred to House as it is about a diagnostic department, something that doesn't really exist in the UK. Again - not so stupid as to think a TV programme is a genuine reflection of life.

I didn't say that the US is behind, either. I wouldn't - I don;t know enough about it to say that and even if what I said was right then having poor diagnostics doesn't infer that the entire profession is shite.

It's a different approach - specialisation v. generalisation, which is best?

Like I said - I am rather ignorant in this matter, was merely relating what I had heard because I was interested to hear what others thought - others who maybe knew a little more than me.

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Sorry...still annoyed from earlier today.

I like your AV

 

[Vermilion]

Sorry...still annoyed from earlier today.

What happened ? You're not normally so... fraught.

I like your AV

Thankyou. I did put it up to cheer you up...
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[Misty_Morning]

What happened ? You're not normally so... fraught.



Thankyou. I did put it up to cheer you up...
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I picked up some clothes from the drycleaner this morning and when I got home I noticed that the skirt of one of my suits (my favorite one that cost me $800) was tore in 3 places and not on the seams and I don't think it can be fixed. (I bitched about this on another board). Anyways I went back up there and they told me I should have inspected my garments when I picked them up. I walked out cuz I could feel a cussin fit fixing to burst loose.

Then I also noticed that the trash collectors did not remove my trash but they got everyone one elses on the street...well there only a couple of us...but come on! My trash can is FULL and I know I'm gonna need more space as I am packing and throwing out alot of stuff. I called the morons at the waste service and they said they will be sure to pick it up on Friday. WTF? They were supposed to pick it YESTERDAY and they got everyone elses but me today.

I blurted a few explatives and hung up. They have tried to call me 3 times and I'm not gonna answer the phone cuz I'm still pissed.





OK. To stay on topic. It is my opinion that the US has the best health system in the world. I would trade it for anything. There are problems but I am not going give up quality health care for socialized medicine in any manner what so ever.

 

[oggbashan]

...OK. To stay on topic. It is my opinion that the US has the best health system in the world. I would trade it for anything. There are problems but I am not going give up quality health care for socialized medicine in any manner what so ever.

In the UK you can choose. You can use the NHS. You can use private health care and can buy (or get your employer to buy) insurance to cover private health costs. You can mix and match. Urgent emergency care is best through the NHS. Cold surgery such as hip replacement is best done privately.

You can pay for whatever health care you want. I needed an X-ray of my back. The NHS would have provided it with a ten day wait. I rang the local private hospital. They said "come now" and saw me within ten minutes of parking my car. They took my credit card and issued me with a receipt. Half an hour after my phone call I drove away from the hospital with my X-rays.

I have health insurance through a staff hospital scheme originally set up to treat TB. If I need to see a consultant I can ring the scheme and they will arrange and pay for a private consultation. The consultant will advise whether the staff scheme or the NHS is best for whatever treatment I need and arrange it. Cost to me of either? Nil except the small monthly payment to the staff hospital scheme that I have belonged to since I started work at 18. That scheme now covers me, my wife and my daughters even though two of them are married.

Choice is available. The cost of whatever choice you make is much lower than in the US.

Og

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I called a friend who works for a health insurance company. This is what I understand...

The Insurance Company rates based on either
a) An individual or family's health record
b) On Group Insurance Experience.

That's all fine and good, except there is no explaination of how the rates are arrived at. As near as I can tell, the company determins they will make $XXXXXXXXXX in profit for the year. Then they factor in commissions, salaries, overhead and payouts. That gives them a total dollar volumn to submit as premiums to their customers. The problem is, the profit is extraordinarily high, their costs are generally overstated, as well as their expected payouts. This increases their profit margin even further.

Then the companies contract with providers (Doctors, hospitals, etc) to pay them at a flat rate for defined services. That means that the doctor, hospital, etc has to settle for what the company decides they want to pay. The effort here is a lower the company's payout by squeezing the providers, again increasing their own profits.

Keiser Health Plan is even more viscious, since they are not only the insurance company but also the provider. I'm not saying Keiser does not have good, qualified and knowlegable doctors, but their treatments are subject to review by "raters" who often change the patient's treatment for a cheaper drug or proceedure. This is what lead to the death of my elder sister.