Opinions On Work Place Dress

[Bob Peale]

I realize that about some things (ok, very few things) I can be a conservative stick in the mud, so I'm asking if I'm being unreasonable.

You have a partner meeting where you are trying to lay out synergies and agree to pursue multi-million dollar contracts. If you are a woamn, do you think it is appropriate to attend said meeting in a "business suit" that includes a form fitting skirt that stops mid thigh, no hose, and a jacket with no blouse underneath?

I was going to say something to my associate but I wasn't sure if I'm out of line. It seems contradictory - how can a woman expect to be taken seriously in an outfit like that? I would think that would be the equivalent of a man showing up with no socks and slip ons or a dark colored undershirt (or worse, one with some sort of logo emblazoned on it) underneath a white dress shirt.

Am I just being northeastern power broker rigid or do others find this a breach of protocol?

 

[MissTaken]

Some women can carry themselves in such a fashion that to attend a high level meeting with no hose would be perfectly reasonable.

As for me, if there are financial negotiations or contracts being discussed, I dress. The joke at the office is/was that I was that when I was wearing my "power suit and my bitch red lipstick", I meant business!

And yes, hose and pumps were part of the package as well.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Let me put it this way....if I go in to see my bank manager and he was wearing a T shirt I wouldn't feel very happy about letting him deal with my money.

I think dressing in a business like fashion shows you have commitment and take your job seriously after all would you trust surgeon who showed up to do an Op in a Hawian shirt and flip flop's ?

 

[Calamity Jane]

I think if it's a meeting where you expect people to listen to what you have to say, and want people to respect your opinion, than conservative is the way to go. Especially in a field that is conservative anyway.

Hose are a requirement as far as I'm concerned. To not wear them is just too casual no matter what else you have on.

 

[Cheyenne]

You have a partner meeting where you are trying to lay out synergies and agree to pursue multi-million dollar contracts. If you are a woamn, do you think it is appropriate to attend said meeting in a "business suit" that includes a form fitting skirt that stops mid thigh, no hose, and a jacket with no blouse underneath?

I dress much more casually than many others in positions similar to mine. But, "no hose" is a NO NO no matter what you are wearing. Especially if she is wearing a short shirt though.

It sounds like she watches too much TV and wants to look like the women on Allie McBeal. We used to have a woman in our office- mid 20's- who had a great body and dressed like that. But she was known as a "slut" by men and women alike. Her dress style wasn't the only reason for that, but it contributed.

The short answer is that no, she probably wasn't dressed appropriately.

 

[Bob Peale]

I thought I was going crazy! I mean, I understand that given where I'm from, some of the immutable laws aren't immutable elsewhere (1.e. men in jackets when not at the desk, dress shirts white, no loafers with suits, etc.), but this seemed a little out of hand.

The problem we have is that we have a bunch of late 20's/early 30's playing grownup but they were never taught by grownups how to play.

Before I said something, I wanted to make sure I wasn't out of touch...

 

[Calamity Jane]

The problem we have is that we have a bunch of late 20's/early 30's playing grownup but they were never taught by grownups how to play.

HEY BOB! I'm a late 20's/early 30's and I don't consider myself 'playing grownup'. Perhaps the problem isn't age related? I know how to dress appropriately for just about any situation without anyone telling me. Some people are just morons.

 

[Cheyenne]

Before I said something, I wanted to make sure I wasn't out of touch...

I don't think anyone recommended that you SAY something though. Are you her boss? Or will you sound like "dad" trying to tell her what to do?

Got any female partners who could address the issue? Or a general type guideline that could be given to the whole office? That might be less offensive to her than having someone directly reprimand her taste in clothing.

 

[miles]

OUTSIDER

I have to ask.....does your avatar swallow?

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I think dressing in a business like fashion shows you have commitment and take your job seriously after all would you trust surgeon who showed up to do an Op in a Hawian shirt and flip flop's ?

I work in a profession where informal dress is allowed - in fact we often wear Hawaiian shirts (my fave). Many of us make more than bank presidents, some make as much as a good surgeon, and no small number are millionaires or even billionaires.

Often what we produce can make millions or billions at a pretty high profit ratio, make the difference between a company floundering or becoming wildly successful, the space shuttle flying or the Ariane-4 failing and costing the French billions (yes, that was a software failure), or people dying or living (flight control software, medical software, etc.).

So yeah, everyday of their lives, people depend on us software engineers to do our job seriously and in a correct manner. We may not hold the scalpel in our hands, but the results of our work are right there in the operating and recovery rooms keeping people alive. We may not hold the flight controls in our hands, but we wrote the software that interprets what those control movements mean and what to do about it.

And yes, we wear Hawaiian shirts, show up to work in shorts and sandals, and often have a non-professional looking appearance that might not impress you on a lawyer or surgeon.

But let me tell you; I have dealt with quite a few lawyers, doctors, venture capitalists, bank financial officers, company CEOs/CFOs - and you cannot tell the good ones from the bad ones by how they dress.

Yes, people who deal with the public outside of their company probably need to dress more professionally than someone who doesn't (software engineers rarely deal face to face with the public), but those of us who dress down take our jobs just as seriously - quite often more so (work in any software company and see who is often there 12-16 hours a day 6-7 days a week trying to make sure the product is right and on time).

Bob, it sounded like the woman you described was serious about her appearance, but maybe wasn't aware of your preferences for professional wear.

 

[TN_Vixen]

Re: Re: Opinions On Work Place Dress

I dress much more casually than many others in positions similar to mine. But, "no hose" is a NO NO no matter what you are wearing. Especially if she is wearing a short shirt though.

Chey, I hate wearing hose and only do so in the wintertime. Spring, Summer & Fall I always go without hose. Of course I've got great legs. heh



Seriously, there are times when I think not wearing hose is perfectly fine. As for the jacket without a top underneath? That's carrying things a bit too far.

 

[miles]

I've got a hose for ya.

 

[Wizard]

I thought I was going crazy! I mean, I understand that given where I'm from, some of the immutable laws aren't immutable elsewhere (1.e. men in jackets when not at the desk, dress shirts white, no loafers with suits, etc.), but this seemed a little out of hand.

The problem we have is that we have a bunch of late 20's/early 30's playing grownup but they were never taught by grownups how to play.

Before I said something, I wanted to make sure I wasn't out of touch...

I think you are right on in your thoughts and agree 100%..................

 

[TN_Vixen]

Oh MY! And what a big hose it is.

 

[Bob Peale]

HEY BOB! I'm a late 20's/early 30's and I don't consider myself 'playing grownup'. Perhaps the problem isn't age related? I know how to dress appropriately for just about any situation without anyone telling me. Some people are just morons.

I too am late 20's/early 30's and I didn't say that WE were playing grownup . I work for a company where the CEO is 36 and the directors are all late 20's - early 30's.

However, they never had benefit of the type of training that comes from working with older, more experienced people. In a lot of cases, they were placed in their positions because of tenure (in a company where the average age is 24), read a few books, and are trying to run a company. THAT is playing grownup.

Because of the ecobomy of the last ten years, a lot of younger people began to equate success with experience. It's real easy to make a money when everybody else is; it's quite a different story to make money when others are struggling.

And as for the moron thing, I agree - there are more poster children for birth control walking around than I can shake a stick at

 

[xwizard4]

Dress codes suck. It's the height of arrogance to judge someone else by the way they are dressed. You can say you like it or you don't, but to make any other judgements about a person based on the way they choose to dress is just plain disrespectful.

 

[Bob Peale]

I don't think anyone recommended that you SAY something though. Are you her boss? Or will you sound like "dad" trying to tell her what to do?

Got any female partners who could address the issue? Or a general type guideline that could be given to the whole office? That might be less offensive to her than having someone directly reprimand her taste in clothing.

It is my account - my bonus and my salary are dependent on the efficient execution of this arrangement, and I am the lead.

And it would be hard to sound like the "dad" since she's older than I am. In the past, I have let her be because she didn't directly affect anything I was involved in.

 

[OUTSIDER]

I work in a profession where informal dress is allowed - in fact we often wear Hawaiian shirts (my fave). Many of us make more than bank presidents, some make as much as a good surgeon, and no small number are millionaires or even billionaires.

Often what we produce can make millions or billions at a pretty high profit ratio, make the difference between a company floundering or becoming wildly successful, the space shuttle flying or the Ariane-4 failing and costing the French billions (yes, that was a software failure), or people dying or living (flight control software, medical software, etc.).

So yeah, everyday of their lives, people depend on us software engineers to do our job seriously and in a correct manner. We may not hold the scalpel in our hands, but the results of our work are right there in the operating and recovery rooms keeping people alive. We may not hold the flight controls in our hands, but we wrote the software that interprets what those control movements mean and what to do about it.

And yes, we wear Hawaiian shirts, show up to work in shorts and sandals, and often have a non-professional looking appearance that might not impress you on a lawyer or surgeon.

But let me tell you; I have dealt with quite a few lawyers, doctors, venture capitalists, bank financial officers, company CEOs/CFOs - and you cannot tell the good ones from the bad ones by how they dress.

Yes, people who deal with the public outside of their company probably need to dress more professionally than someone who doesn't (software engineers rarely deal face to face with the public), but those of us who dress down take our jobs just as seriously - quite often more so (work in any software company and see who is often there 12-16 hours a day 6-7 days a week trying to make sure the product is right and on time).

Bob, it sounded like the woman you described was serious about her appearance, but maybe wasn't aware of your preferences for professional wear.

Yeah I know I'm being Two faced but we expect Software types to be informal, maybe because software writting is thought to be more akin to an art form rather than a science "But" when it comes to a normal office or bank or what ever we expect people to wear conservative clothing.

 

[Bob Peale]

Dress codes suck. It's the height of arrogance to judge someone else by the way they are dressed. You can say you like it or you don't, but to make any other judgements about a person based on the way they choose to dress is just plain disrespectful.

That would almost be relevant if we were talking about dress codes, but we are not.

Our dress code is casual - in most cases, you can wear shorst and flip flops in your office when you are not interfacing with the public.

However, there are expectations in the business world. Period. And personally, if you were going to ask me to enter into agreement that was going to result in $11 million in revenue over 3 years, I'd like to know that you understand the basics of business etiquette.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Re: Re: Opinions On Work Place Dress

Chey, I hate wearing hose and only do so in the wintertime. Spring, Summer & Fall I always go without hose. Of course I've got great legs. heh



Seriously, there are times when I think not wearing hose is perfectly fine. As for the jacket without a top underneath? That's carrying things a bit too far.

Maybe things are different in the south. In big cities in the north, no way would a business person be caught without hose. Just doesn't look professional.

 

[Bob Peale]

I work in a profession where informal dress is allowed - in fact we often wear Hawaiian shirts (my fave). Many of us make more than bank presidents, some make as much as a good surgeon, and no small number are millionaires or even billionaires.

Often what we produce can make millions or billions at a pretty high profit ratio, make the difference between a company floundering or becoming wildly successful, the space shuttle flying or the Ariane-4 failing and costing the French billions (yes, that was a software failure), or people dying or living (flight control software, medical software, etc.).

So yeah, everyday of their lives, people depend on us software engineers to do our job seriously and in a correct manner. We may not hold the scalpel in our hands, but the results of our work are right there in the operating and recovery rooms keeping people alive. We may not hold the flight controls in our hands, but we wrote the software that interprets what those control movements mean and what to do about it.

And yes, we wear Hawaiian shirts, show up to work in shorts and sandals, and often have a non-professional looking appearance that might not impress you on a lawyer or surgeon.

But let me tell you; I have dealt with quite a few lawyers, doctors, venture capitalists, bank financial officers, company CEOs/CFOs - and you cannot tell the good ones from the bad ones by how they dress.

Yes, people who deal with the public outside of their company probably need to dress more professionally than someone who doesn't (software engineers rarely deal face to face with the public), but those of us who dress down take our jobs just as seriously - quite often more so (work in any software company and see who is often there 12-16 hours a day 6-7 days a week trying to make sure the product is right and on time).

Bob, it sounded like the woman you described was serious about her appearance, but maybe wasn't aware of your preferences for professional wear.

STG,

No disagreement with anything you said. Considering I've always been considered part of the "talent" there are days when I've been in Tevas, shorts and a tank. Hell, half of the time I'm in my office with my shoes kicked off. This isn't about internal dress codes, its about understanding when and where certain behaviors are appropriate.

If you tell me that, if sitting in a courtroom, your co counsel walks in in a jogging suit to defend you on a capital charge, you're going to think to yourself "Hmm, let's just see how talented this guy is," or during your consultation for LASIK surgery, the doctor performing the surgery breezes by in a G-String and you think, "Now there's a qualified surgeon," you're full of shit (no offense intended). What either of these people do in the confines of their office, in private, or after credibility has been established, is another story.

I don't have a problem with the outfit, I have a problem with the judgement.

 

[Calamity Jane]

And as for the moron thing, I agree - there are more poster children for birth control walking around than I can shake a stick at

Next time you feel like shakin your stick...

BTW, I wasn't really offended about the age thing, I've just been called a kid more times this week than I can stand.

 

[*bratcat*]

I don't work directly with the public...

 

[Bob Peale]

BTW, I wasn't really offended about the age thing, I've just been called a kid more times this week than I can stand.

Hey, welcome to my world. I got carded buying wine earlier this week by a cashier 12 years YOUNGER than me. And, she accused me of having a phony ID!

 

[*bratcat*]