One Europe?

REDWAVE

Urban Jungle Dweller
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OK, political junkies, this is something a little different. I'm curious to see how it works out.

Currently, the U.S. is "the world's only superpower." But students of history know that global stability (or at least some semblance of it) requires a balance of powers. An excellent example is Great Britain's longstanding policy, especially during its imperialist heyday (18th & 19th centuries), of preventing any one nation from dominating continental Europe. Bush's aggressive drive to militarily dominate Central Asia and the Middle East, and thus effectively dominate the entire world, is sure to provoke opposition from other powers. But of all the many countries which have "interests" in the area, no one alone has the power to effectively challenge the U.S. Russia is a power in decline; Russian society is in chaos. China is a rising nation, but still very backward economically and technologically compared to the U.S. By 2050 they may be a powerhouse, but they still need a lot of time to catch up. Japan's economy is second only to that of the U.S., but it has been in recession for over ten years now, is militarily weak, and like Germany has a deep-seated pacifism among its populace resulting from WWII. India has a huge population, but is even less developed than China.

None of the western European nations can challenge the U.S. alone either. Germany is an economic superpower, having the world's third largest economy, but is weak militarily. England has nukes, but is an economic basket case. France has both a fairly strong economy and nukes, but still can't begin to match the U.S. by itself. Only a united Europe can do that. The current European Union already has a larger economy than the U.S., and it doesn't encompass anywhere near all of Europe (mostly western Europe). The EU is a weird entity. It's not a nation, it's maybe a loose confederation of nations-- it's hard to say what the hell it is exactly. It already has some of the trappings of nationhood-- a central bank (given a lot of power, at least on paper, by the Maastricht agreement), a currency (the euro), and is setting up a 60,000 man Rapid Deployment Force (RDF)-- the beginnings of a European military force.

In order to really challenge U.S. global hegemony, Europe needs a charismatic leader who can forge the EU into one nation, rapidly build up its military, and launch massive public works projects to provide full (or near full) employment to keep the workers content. A program of "European socialism," if you will.

Comments? Reactions? How far should the borders of a united Europe stretch? All the way to the Urals? Or restricted to the current EU? How far east should it extend, keeping in mind eastern Europe is much more impoverished and much less developed than western Europe?
 
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Stability. Long-term stability was provided by super-powers in thier regions, the world being too large to be considered as a whole.

Rome and China come to mind.

I'll read the rest now. I'm really bored.
 
They've had charismatics.

We don't want to see that again.

Then, there is always Le Penn...
 
REDWAVE said:
England has nukes, but is an economic basket case. France has both a fairly strong economy and nukes,
You are wrong on those two point's.

England has one of the fastest growing economy's in the world.
Korea/Japan/USA have made are tiny island it's european base so they can tap in to the european market.

And france you have to be kidding me, There europe's weakest link.
 
Europe's also very tired and worn out. They won't invade anyone or control, or seek to dominate, just happy Italians, drunken French, frustrated Germans, and the Brits all hangin' out in the pub cheering on the lads of football...

That includes Russia.

China seeks to regain what was once it's heavenly mandate. I mean, they are serious and have set themselves on a path of confrontation with the U.S. That's why, more than anything, India wanted nukes. If you want to find out about someone, see how the neighbors treat them.
 
Yes. Which is why they cannot be included in REDWAVE'S army of balance since thier battle standard is the white one...
 
Limey/Frog

I'd expect an Englishman to slam France. That whole limey/frog rivalry thing, you know.
 
Re: Limey/Frog

REDWAVE said:
I'd expect an Englishman to slam France. That whole limey/frog rivalry thing, you know.


Irrespective.

The facts are Solidly true.
 
On this thread we have two people who promised swift FBI action against Literotica and several members.

How's it going, boys? Can I have your nuts now?
 
Irrelevant bullshit

Don't you just hate people who post irrelevant bullshit?
 
I'm not too happy about...

extending the borders of Europe too far too fast. We need time to consolidate what we've achieved already (the euro being the single most important item), and tidy up some loose ends, like the UK's and Denmark's integration into the single currency.

By the way REDWAVE the UK is a member of G7 in its own right, don'tcha know...:)

The US is the single most powerful country in the world but as Europe continues its development into one country (which won't be achieved tomorrow!) the US will steadily lose that status.

There are of course new economic blocs being formed which themselves threaten the economic strength of the US, and quite frankly NAFTA is a minnow compared to the giants now being formed.

I agree that Europe needs an elected leader to become a truly world power. The present system of each country handling the Presidency of the EU for six months can only be considered as a stop-gap solution.

But although we have pan-European elections to vote our representatives to the European Parliament, a single political leader is still a long way off.

Don't take too much notice of that "we hate the frogs, and the frogs hate us" stuff. European rivalry has matured in the last 30-40 years as we grow closer and rely on each other more.

The people of Europe for the first time in our history have a common enemy...

The decisions made on our behalf in Brussels.

But at least we're growing ever closer.

:)
 
Son of a Bitch, a rational thread.

First of all, economic democracies do not make war on one another. Europes hay days as a military power are over and they know it too. Further, their socialist economy will not allow them to build a true offensive capability.

China is a different story. They do see themselves as the inhieritor of all things Asian. They have the will and the manpower, but not the natural resorces. What they need is in Russia, Siberia to be precise. That means that the Russians will probably feel the wrath of the Chinese military before the US does. The US will never allow that to happen and it would end up being the US and Russia alligned against the Chinese. Nukes are out of the question, the Chinese are much to sophisticated to play the India/Pakistan game.

That means that China will have to become even more of a trading partner. It's called the seduction of money and even now the Chinese leadership is falling into the trap.

Seductive, isn't it?

Ishmael
 
"Economic democracy"? Category confusion

I'm always rational, Ishmael. First, what's an "economic democracy"? One where everyone is roughly equal economically? In that case, neither the U.S. nor the E.U. is an economic democracy. Democracy is a political, not an economic, concept. Capitalism and socialism are economic concepts. (Of course, politics and economics are closely interrelated.)

Second, your statement that capitalist democracies (that's how I'm rephrasing it) do not go to war is patently untrue. Look at the many wars fought among European mercantile and later capitalist/imperialist powers: the Seven Years War (1756-1763), the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815), the Franco-Prussian War (1870), and (most importantly) the First World War (1914-1918), etc.

Europe is heavily dependent upon Middle Eastern oil. Bush's drive toward global domination threatens the interests of all of the European powers. They are bound to resist it. Already there is a trade war between the U.S. and Europe. Whether Europe will succeed in effectively uniting, and whether the trans-Atlantic rivalry will reach the point of an actual shooting war, remains to be seen.
 
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Re: "Economic democracy"? Category confusion

REDWAVE said:
I'm always rational, Ishmael. First, what's an "economic democracy"? One where everyone is roughly equal economically? In that case, neither the U.S. nor the E.U. is an economic democracy. Democracy is a political, not an economic, concept. Capitalism and socialism are economic concepts. (Of course, politics and economics are closely interrelated.)

Second, your statement that capitalist democracies (that's how I'm rephrasing it) do not go to war is patently untrue. Look at the many wars fought among European mercantile and later capitalist/imperialist powers: the Seven Years War (1756-1763), the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1792-1815, the Franco-Prussian War (1870), etc.

Europe is heavily dependent upon Middle Eastern oil. Bush's drive toward global domination threatens the interests of all of the European powers. They are bound to resist it. Already there is a trade war between the U.S. and Europe.
Whether Europe will succeed in effectively uniting, and whether the trans-Atlantic rivalry will reach the point of an actual shooting war, remains to be seen.

Except for the law, there is not such thing is equal. Never has been, never will be. As long as one man, economically, politically, or phyisically has dominion over another, equality does not exist. Other than complete anarchy, you can not create a political system where one of the above is not true.

There was no democracy and we both know that regarding the examples you cited.

Re. the Transatlantic treaty. There will be no shooting war. The issue over steel is immaterial when compared to what both sides have at stake. Never forget that the press has it's own agenda too.

The world is now transitioning from ideologic differences to theologic differences. Drop the 'tunnel vision' focus of your ideological thrust and open your eyes. We are moving to a brink where our ideological differences are minor.

Ishmael
 
Theologic differences? Holy Jihad, Batman!

Theological differences? That's just your warped vision of the world: Crusade vs. Jihad. Go back to the middle ages; you'd feel more at home there.
 
Re: Theologic differences? Holy Jihad, Batman!

REDWAVE said:
Theological differences? That's just your warped vision of the world: Crusade vs. Jihad. Go back to the middle ages; you'd feel more at home there.

Oh, wake up.

Ishmael
 
Re: "Economic democracy"? Category confusion

REDWAVE said:
and whether the trans-Atlantic rivalry will reach the point of an actual shooting war, remains to be seen.

Now that's a scenario I've often considered a distinct possibility. Once our two economic paths diverge too far anything could happen.

But what I would like to see is Europe and America becoming one economic bloc. Then both of us would benefit.

The problem with that of course is that Americans would have to be pursuaded that going it alone is no longer viable in a changing world. And the standard"America is the best, has the biggest, is the strongest..." litany would have to be eradicated from the American psyche.

But think what an all powerful bloc we could form...

The mind boggles. It could even be the beginning of my lifelong dream...

A World Government...

ppman
 
World Gov?

Ah, you soft-hearted visionary sod, you, ppman. One world government? Well, we're pretty close to that now. It's called "globalization." Supra-national institutions controlled by giant multi-national corporations-- the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO-- have all but taken over, overriding democracy whenever it's convenient.

Or were you talking about a truly democratic world government, built by the world's people, rather than imposed from the top down?
;)
 
Re: Re: "Economic democracy"? Category confusion

p_p_man said:

But think what an all powerful bloc we could form...

The mind boggles. It could even be the beginning of my lifelong dream...

A World Government...

ppman

If the U.N. had teeth, then maybe. Just maybe. When My grandkids have grandkids. :D
 
Europe's also very tired and worn out. They won't invade anyone or control, or seek to dominate, just happy Italians, drunken French, frustrated Germans, and the Brits all hangin' out in the pub cheering on the lads of football...


Mmmmm....The Brits never invade anyone? Why do we need to invade anyone? We PROTECT...an invasion is a HOSTILE act....and lest he forgets, WE the BRITS are always the first to assist and help the USA.

The point made by RED, the Germans are not a fiscal force...their unemployment is one of the highest in Europe and I woud dare to say, the vast regret the Euro Currency.


Rule Brittania
 
Re: World Gov?

REDWAVE said:
Or were you talking about a truly democratic world government, built by the world's people, rather than imposed from the top down?
;)

As a natural progression from what's happening now.

From the top down. But not forgetting the top is elected by the people

:)
 
Re: Re: "Economic democracy"? Category confusion

p_p_man said:


Now that's a scenario I've often considered a distinct possibility. Once our two economic paths diverge too far anything could happen.

But what I would like to see is Europe and America becoming one economic bloc. Then both of us would benefit.

The problem with that of course is that Americans would have to be pursuaded that going it alone is no longer viable in a changing world. And the standard"America is the best, has the biggest, is the strongest..." litany would have to be eradicated from the American psyche.

But think what an all powerful bloc we could form...

The mind boggles. It could even be the beginning of my lifelong dream...

A World Government...

ppman

I hope with all I have that you're wrong.

Ishmael
 
The greater danger is that Overland Park, KS will continue to grow and continue to annex land until we all have one happy, mall-shopping, Brittany Spears kinda Pepsi world...


And Dixon Carter Lee is for molesting children. Of course the FBI's new directives call for a war on Child Porn as well as terrorism so who's to say the two you accuse have not had an effect. BTW. It was real easy to get personal info on corporate officers to turn over to the FBI you fucking moron. You agree RED?
 
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