On the question of Soy! And other stuff.

[Betticus]

Since this was showing up in the other thread I thought it deserved its own lil space to talk about it.

I'll try to search for and provide links to credible scientific/medical information and stay away from info sources that are more opinion than hard fact.

http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

That page leans toward soy's benefits and lists possible harmful effects as part of the controversy. There is some medical opinion on both sides of the story.

On an interesting note as we had discussed early puberty. I recently read an article (scientific, lots of big words) on the feeding of cattle to induce early puberty and fertility. Speeds the dairy cow along and the beef animal to market.

They accomplish this in an interesting way, they feed a high grain/starch diet supplemented with molasses but they don't get the early puberty until they also add in a high quality specific type of protein. Their reasoning was that under optimal nutrition the animal will take the primordial signal that food is plenty and good and therefore spur the organism on to reproduce.

 

[Betticus]

http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/cris/getone.asp?strid=0188090

Very scary stuff on inducing puberty onset in heifers.

 

[Luvkitty33]

Since this was showing up in the other thread I thought it deserved its own lil space to talk about it.

I'll try to search for and provide links to credible scientific/medical information and stay away from info sources that are more opinion than hard fact.

http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

That page leans toward soy's benefits and lists possible harmful effects as part of the controversy. There is some medical opinion on both sides of the story.

On an interesting note as we had discussed early puberty. I recently read an article (scientific, lots of big words) on the feeding of cattle to induce early puberty and fertility. Speeds the dairy cow along and the beef animal to market.

They accomplish this in an interesting way, they feed a high grain/starch diet supplemented with molasses but they don't get the early puberty until they also add in a high quality specific type of protein. Their reasoning was that under optimal nutrition the animal will take the primordial signal that food is plenty and good and therefore spur the organism on to reproduce.

I just wanted to thank you for posting this link. I'm off to go read it right now.

 

[Betticus]

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-osteoporosis.html

The Thyroid Risk Factor

Other than the vitamin K found in natto, soybean products have little to offer our bones and much to harm them. More than 70 years of studies link soy to thyroid problems, manifesting most often as hypothyroidism with its symptoms of weight gain, fatigue, malaise and lethargy. Low thyroid is not only a leading cause of midlife misery but a known risk factor for osteoporosis. Yet soy phytoestrogens are widely marketed to midlife women.

 

[graceanne]

Great. So if soy's bad for you, what the fuck am I supposed to give my lactose-intolerant child?

 

[Betticus]

Great. So if soy's bad for you, what the fuck am I supposed to give my lactose-intolerant child?

lactaid, goats milk, water?

 

[Betticus]

Great. So if soy's bad for you, what the fuck am I supposed to give my lactose-intolerant child?

Ale, port, scotch, brandy?

 

[graceanne]

Ale, port, scotch, brandy?

Don't tempt me. *sigh*

 

[Luvkitty33]

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy-osteoporosis.html

The Thyroid Risk Factor

Other than the vitamin K found in natto, soybean products have little to offer our bones and much to harm them. More than 70 years of studies link soy to thyroid problems, manifesting most often as hypothyroidism with its symptoms of weight gain, fatigue, malaise and lethargy. Low thyroid is not only a leading cause of midlife misery but a known risk factor for osteoporosis. Yet soy phytoestrogens are widely marketed to midlife women.

Well, that's just great!! I already have hypothyroidism (extremely mild) and am at risk for osteoporosis (though I think I do enough now to prevent it), and I'm drinking soy milk like it's water!!!!! I'm so sick of these conflicting medical reports!! "This" causes cancer.....no "this" helps prevent cancer, etc.!!! How is someone who is attempting to eat healthy make good food choices without screwing up some other part of their body!! How incredibly frustrating!!

Thanks again B. for the links!

 

[Betticus]

Look at the bright side, your heart will be really healthy when you die of cancer with weak, broken bones and morbid obesity.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't buy it. Other than sinuses and a couple of cervical bones, I'm very healthy and not fat. I did not experience puberty early either. I was in ninth grade. I was raised on soy products which I still consume daily.

 

[midwestyankee]

Great. So if soy's bad for you, what the fuck am I supposed to give my lactose-intolerant child?

Soy is not bad for you.

Take note that most of the experiments that have led to results suggesting problems with soy (or virtually any other food product, for that matter) are conducted by focusing on a single compound. When scientists claim that Compund X causes Y problem in laboratory rats, that's all they're claiming. They aren't feeding the rats a normal diet of tofu or soy milk. Instead, they're injecting the rats with a high dosage of a single compound that happens to be present in a certain food.

Look, pay attention to a couple of things here. First off there are a gazillion people in China, Japan, Korea and elsewhere in Asia who consume many times more soy products each day than most Americans consume in a year. These populations do not show elevated levels of any of the problems that you may have read about being associated with consumption of soy.

Second, note what FF said above. While the experience of a single person is only anecdotal evidence, she is hardly alone in having consumed soy products for most of her life.

Sure some people may react badly to eating soy products. But some people are allergic to peanuts and you don't see alarmist publications calling for the end of Skippy and Jiff companies.

 

[Homburg]

My issues aren't alarmist in nature. It's just a preference on my part. I avoid soy because of the high amount of phytoestrogens present. No thanks, do not want.

As to the various Oriental populations eating loads of soy, we are adaptive organisms. Those cultures have been eating soy for a long enough time to allow for adaptive processes to take some effect. Different cultures develope different nutrition needs as a result of these adaptive processes. The issues becomes introducing these alien foods to the diets of people not used to them, and what do not have mechanisms in palce to handle these food items.

Again, I'm not asoy alarmist. I'm just a guy that doesn't want any more estrogen than I get from the plastics all around me, the water supply, etc.

 

[Betticus]

Look, pay attention to a couple of things here. First off there are a gazillion people in China, Japan, Korea and elsewhere in Asia who consume many times more soy products each day than most Americans consume in a year. These populations do not show elevated levels of any of the problems that you may have read about being associated with consumption of soy.

How sure are you about how much soy asians consume? When I lived in Tokyo the only soy I recall seeing consumed would have been a couple of cubes in some miso soup. Do you really believe that people in asian countries consume in one day "many times" in one day than an american does in a year?

Do you have anything to back up that claim? Anything at all? What you just said is pretty much the equivalent to saying that black people eat more fried chicken and watermelon in one day than everyone else in a year. Or that white people rape more children in one day than everyone else in a year.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/food/soy_story.html

"How Much Soy Do Asians Really Eat?
Those who dare to question the benefits of soy tend to receive one stock answer: Soy foods
couldn't possibly have a downside because Asians eat large quantities of soy every day and
consequently remain free of most western diseases. In fact, the people of China, Japan, and
other countries in Asia eat very little soy. The soy industry's own figures show that soy
consumption in China, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan ranges from 9.3 to 36 grams per
day.1 That's grams of soy food, not grams of soy protein alone. Compare this with a cup of
tofu (252 grams) or soy milk (240 grams).2 Many Americans today think nothing of
consuming a cup of tofu, a couple glasses of soy milk, handfuls of soy nuts, soy "energy
bars," and veggie burgers. Infants on soy formula receive the most of all, both in quantity
and in proportion to body weight. "

 

[Homburg]

Do you have anything to back up that claim? Anything at all? What you just said is pretty much the equivalent to saying that black people eat more fried chicken and watermelon in one day than everyone else in a year. Or that white people rape more children in one day than everyone else in a year.

Dude, that last one is totally true. White people are evil, especially white males.

You aren't a white male, are you? *looks suspisciously at Betticus* You did make that comment about raping your way through that mall...

 

[Betticus]

Dude, that last one is totally true. White people are evil, especially white males.

You aren't a white male, are you? *looks suspisciously at Betticus* You did make that comment about raping your way through that mall...

I'm lilly white and have dark jedi mind powers.

All this means is that I even rape people in my sleep.

 

[kiten69]

All this means is that I even rape people in my sleep.

You must be rather picky about who you "rape in your sleep". . .I'm still all virginal and whatnot! :lil innocent angel emote goes here:

 

[intothewoods]

My understanding was that some soy milk is fine, but that soy supplements that include super doses of soy should be avoided.

I haven't really looked into the soy issue all that closely, but Dr. Andrew Weil (who has a website if you google - I'm just being lazy) is overall a good source of health and food information.

 

[midwestyankee]

How sure are you about how much soy asians consume? When I lived in Tokyo the only soy I recall seeing consumed would have been a couple of cubes in some miso soup. Do you really believe that people in asian countries consume in one day "many times" in one day than an american does in a year?

Do you have anything to back up that claim? Anything at all? What you just said is pretty much the equivalent to saying that black people eat more fried chicken and watermelon in one day than everyone else in a year. Or that white people rape more children in one day than everyone else in a year.

<snip to keep this short>

First off, I'm not above admitting that I sometimes shoot from the hip here. That said, my comment was meant to indicate that the typical Asian consumes far more soy than the typical American. I still don't think that that statement is inaccurate, though no sound survey information is available to back it up that I could find. It's my gut feel that while there are many Americans who consume soy products regularly, far more avoid them for various reasons.

However, before answering your post I did my own internet research. There's a ton of bad-mouthing of soy products out there, much of it from sites that seem to have a highly conservative political bias. I prefer to give credence to those involved in peer-reviewed studies. One such researcher at the National Cancer Institute performed a fair review of the peer-reviewed science on the subject. His conclusions support my assumptions for the most part but do not ignore the fact that excessive levels of soy consumption may, indeed, cause problems in humans.

Money quote:

"Although a few less reputable manufacturers may make exaggerated claims,
overall, the soy industry has been responsible in its promotional efforts,
many of which are supported by recommendations from independent health
agencies. The American Cancer Society includes soy consumption as one of
seven steps to reduce prostate cancer risk. The National Cancer Institute
classifies genistein (the main soybean isoflavone) as a key anti-cancer
agent, and the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the
American Heart Association both endorse soy protein for cholesterol
reduction.

Perhaps though, the best way to appreciate the amount of scientific interest
in soy and isoflavones is to cite the number of scientific papers published
each year on these subjects. Currently, about 600 papers are published
annually. Despite this volume, the Internet is filled with sites devoted to
the alleged dangers of soy consumption. In my view, this information is
inaccurate and represents selective use of scientific literature.

Soy foods have been consumed for centuries by some Asian populations. In
awarding the health claim for cholesterol-lowering effects of soy protein,
the FDA reviewed all safety issues related to soy consumption. Although
there are more than 100 studies suggesting possible harm from eating soy,
most of these are in vitro (cell studies) and animal studies, and this
research actually represents only about one to two per cent of all soy
research published.

When any food is the subject of intense research, some small percentage of
research will suggest potential harm. One has to look at the total evidence
and place most emphasis on the results from human studies published in the
peer-reviewed literature when making conclusions about safety and efficacy.
Following is a brief discussion of some of specific safety issues."

To read further (it's a long article and would take up most of this whole Lit page), click through the source below.

Source

 

[rida]

How sure are you about how much soy asians consume? When I lived in Tokyo the only soy I recall seeing consumed would have been a couple of cubes in some miso soup. Do you really believe that people in asian countries consume in one day "many times" in one day than an american does in a year?

Do you have anything to back up that claim? Anything at all? What you just said is pretty much the equivalent to saying that black people eat more fried -chicken and watermelon in one day than everyone else in a year. Or that white people rape more children in one day than everyone else in a year.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/food/soy_story.html

"How Much Soy Do Asians Really Eat?
Those who dare to question the benefits of soy tend to receive one stock answer: Soy foods
couldn't possibly have a downside because Asians eat large quantities of soy every day and
consequently remain free of most western diseases. In fact, the people of China, Japan, and
other countries in Asia eat very little soy. The soy industry's own figures show that soy
consumption in China, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan ranges from 9.3 to 36 grams per
day.1 That's grams of soy food, not grams of soy protein alone. Compare this with a cup of
tofu (252 grams) or soy milk (240 grams).2 Many Americans today think nothing of
consuming a cup of tofu, a couple glasses of soy milk, handfuls of soy nuts, soy "energy
bars," and veggie burgers. Infants on soy formula receive the most of all, both in quantity
and in proportion to body weight. "

not going into the soy is good vs soy is bad debate ...
but since I currently live in one of the country mentioned above ... I'll give you my observation on soy consumption:

-a half cup of tofu is often eaten in at least one meal a day
-soy products that are also often used are: fried tofu skins that are used in stir fries, or to wrap rice; tofu production left overs such as soy skins
-soy sauce is used instead of salt and is an ingridient of mostly everything
-soy milk is very common and gaining popularity since may asian are lactose-intollerant
-soy beans are also commonly used in many side dishes

That being said, too much of a good thing is usually a bad thing.

What I see as the major problem is that as soon as something is deemed good or healthy (same for when something is suddenly deemed bad or unhealty), huge marketing campaigns to be the first one to take advantage of a new fad starts all over ... and people start just consuming too much (or too little if not ditching completely) the object of the new fad.

 

[FurryFury]

Here is another issue with the whole this is good for you, this is bad for you thing, I refuse to live my life in fear.

I will eat what I enjoy when I care to and live my life to the fullest I have the energy for that day.

I will not avoid the things that are bad for me according the latest "studies" or the "bad" side of town.

Fuck that.

This is my life here.

 

[Homburg]

Here is another issue with the whole this is good for you, this is bad for you thing, I refuse to live my life in fear.

Sure, you can say that. You're all slender and the hotness. I'm a chunky dude in my mid-30's. I fear the carbs. They are out to put fat on me.

 

[FurryFury]

Sure, you can say that. You're all slender and the hotness. I'm a chunky dude in my mid-30's. I fear the carbs. They are out to put fat on me.

I literally couldn't live without carbs. They get such a bad rap! They are by far my fav food group!

And just how do you know I'm slender and the hotness?



Love hearing it though. I do. I do!

I'm not long from 47 btw.

 

[Homburg]

I literally couldn't live without carbs. They get such a bad rap! They are by far my fav food group!

And just how do you know I'm slender and the hotness?



Love hearing it though. I do. I do!

I'm not long from 47 btw.

No bad rap from me. My body likes them too much and wants them around. I can eat protein by the bucket and not worry about weight, but one damned forkful of pasta and I'm porking out.

And how do I know? You posted some pics of you on vacation, including one shot of you in a green or blue-green swimsuit. Saw it once. Can't recall which thread.

Slender and the hotness.




(NOTE: I do not define slender as hotness. Hotness comes in all forms, and I'm not saying that to be PC. Well, okay, bone-skinny is not something I see as hot. I admit. There, it's out in the open. Kate Moss looks like a bag of antlers. Ick.)

 

[FurryFury]

No bad rap from me. My body likes them too much and wants them around. I can eat protein by the bucket and not worry about weight, but one damned forkful of pasta and I'm porking out.

And how do I know? You posted some pics of you on vacation, including one shot of you in a green or blue-green swimsuit. Saw it once. Can't recall which thread.

Slender and the hotness.




(NOTE: I do not define slender as hotness. Hotness comes in all forms, and I'm not saying that to be PC. Well, okay, bone-skinny is not something I see as hot. I admit. There, it's out in the open. Kate Moss looks like a bag of antlers. Ick.)

Oh! *smiles* I forgot about that and didn't know you'd seen it. Cool.

Thanks!

*smiles and blushes*

Um, yeah, I'm all about carbs. I eat protein but not by the bucket and I don't eat meat, fish or fowl at all.