On numbers and votes and such....

[jd4george]

While I posted this reply under the "Wheaties & Piss" thread, a specific discussion of how we look at numbers might be enlightening.

Some opinionated ramblings about numbers.

I'm an independent business consultant, and a good deal of my work requires crunching and extrapolating numbers. That background tells me the following:

The ratings (votes) are useful for just two things... a very general feedback in terms of the "marketability" of a poem, and specific feedback in terms of judging one poem of mine against the body of my work.

Using the numbers outside of that context is folly! My highest rated poem on the Top List is "Stone" (presently at number 5). Is that the strongest poem I have posted here? No. Is it a good poem? Maybe. Is it marketable to the general masses? Yes.

Judo commented that he had received 36 votes on a single poem. That's awesome. The most I have received is 17. Does that mean his is better, or worse than mine? No. As a matter of fact, there is absolutely no conclusion that can be drawn, because there is no way to qualify the numbers. (i.e., who voted and why). To do so is a waste of time.

I track my numbers, because I am interested in knowing how the "audience" is viewing my work. I want to know how one poem stacks up against another. It is a useful tool that way. I made the decision to drop one of my poems from the chapbook I'm working on. It scored a 4.25. It only got one comment and just 4 votes. Does that mean the poem sucks? No. It does mean, however, that it is not as strong as some of my other work.

What else can I learn from tracking the numbers? Well, my highest rated poem has a score of 4.92, and my lowest is 4.25. What does that mean? The only thing I can determine is that in general, I am pretty consistent.

Of the 61 poems presently posted, eight have scores of less than 4.50. What does that mean? Only that my voice is fairly strong, (and to the extent that I have been tinkering with poetry for close to 40 years, my voice should be strong!). It also means that those 8 poems might be deserving or more work.

The averages tell me little. My average score is 4.67. (Means nothing). My average number of votes is 9.97... one shie from getting an H. What's that mean? Simply, I need to strengthen my work if I want more votes, and therefore more "Hs". (Duh!)

As of today, the average number of reads is 232 per poem. Consider that many respected journals only publish 500 to 1000 copies. Readership averages tell me that any specific poem is only read by 25 to 50% of the circulation of a literary digest... which means that any given poem of mine at Lit is receiving the number of reads it would get at any specific journal... and in some cases, even more!

(Remember, Lit is a site for erotic stories... not poetry!)

Two last things on "numbers". I have 17 poems that have 9 votes, and have scores above 4.50. What's that mean? That I have to ask you all to read my stuff, and vote!

Finally, the most important number? The total number of reads. My stuff has been read a total of 13,135 times since coming here in July. That's the cat's ass! After all, why write poetry if it isn't going to be read!

Fretting over the plight of a single poem is a waste of time. Judging the strength or weakness of a poem by using the numbers at Lit is simply wrong... witness the one-bomber, and all the votes we have received from "friends".

The Top List, and the votes, and all that hoopla, are simply tools. Writing poetry is not a contest. There are no winners, or losers. There is nothing more than a consortium of struggling poets, writing and sharing. At Lit, that consortium is strong.

What more could we ask?

 

[WickedEve]

I use votes to get a rough idea of what's working and what's not. I realize there will be "I like Wicked Eve, so here's a 5 for this poem that sucks" votes, and there will be "I hate Wicked Eve, so here's a 1 for this poem that sucks" votes. lol But I think the majority of the votes are legitimate and fair. I've submitted poems that I only kind of like, and they got so-so scores. And I've had poems that I knew were good, and the votes pretty much seemed to tell me the same thing. I also realize that after 10 votes, there's a good chance of getting oned to move you down the top list, so I take that into consideration. Anyway, you can get a general idea with lit's voting system, and it's the same way with public comments. Some people just won't say anything less than praise and others will offer constructive criticism. If you get enough comments, you can usually get a better idea of what readers really think of a particular poem.

 

[twelveoone]

Finally, the most important number? The total number of reads. My stuff has been read a total of 13,135 times since coming here in July. That's the cat's ass! After all, why write poetry if it isn't going to be read!

Fretting over the plight of a single poem is a waste of time. Judging the strength or weakness of a poem by using the numbers at Lit is simply wrong... witness the one-bomber, and all the votes we have received from "friends".

The Top List, and the votes, and all that hoopla, are simply tools. Writing poetry is not a contest. There are no winners, or losers. There is nothing more than a consortium of struggling poets, writing and sharing. At Lit, that consortium is strong.

What more could we ask?

I like to see your stuff in bold; of that 13,135, 8,345 were me looking for stuff to steal
There is nothing more than a consortium of struggling poets, writing and sharing. At Lit, that consortium is strong.
and various

would it be inappropriate to say I love you two, but you're making fell guilty for leaving 100's

 

[annaswirls]

Damn jd! Do you have a spread sheet or something?

If I send you my numbers will you do my stats for me too? Get some sort of batting average? Do you do graphs?

One thing you forgot in your variables is sometimes big voters (meaning people who consistantly vote) take breaks from reading new poems, as they should damn it. Everyone needs a break. I remember one time there were days and days without a single H because a few people were away.

luck of the draw baby.

A good reason to put poems in your sig line, to remind people if they missed something.


The way I see it, there are about 20 core people here who vote at all with any kind of regularity. (Some people show up to vote on only one particular poet etc.) But overall, it is the same crew. (a right awesome crew at that) So what the numbers mean, really is how that group of people feel about your poem. Gotta keep it in perspective


okay I am really going to get my hair cut.

~anna

While I posted this reply under the "Wheaties & Piss" thread, a specific discussion of how we look at numbers might be enlightening.

Some opinionated ramblings about numbers.

I'm an independent business consultant, and a good deal of my work requires crunching and extrapolating numbers. That background tells me the following:

The ratings (votes) are useful for just two things... a very general feedback in terms of the "marketability" of a poem, and specific feedback in terms of judging one poem of mine against the body of my work.

Using the numbers outside of that context is folly! My highest rated poem on the Top List is "Stone" (presently at number 5). Is that the strongest poem I have posted here? No. Is it a good poem? Maybe. Is it marketable to the general masses? Yes.

Judo commented that he had received 36 votes on a single poem. That's awesome. The most I have received is 17. Does that mean his is better, or worse than mine? No. As a matter of fact, there is absolutely no conclusion that can be drawn, because there is no way to qualify the numbers. (i.e., who voted and why). To do so is a waste of time.

I track my numbers, because I am interested in knowing how the "audience" is viewing my work. I want to know how one poem stacks up against another. It is a useful tool that way. I made the decision to drop one of my poems from the chapbook I'm working on. It scored a 4.25. It only got one comment and just 4 votes. Does that mean the poem sucks? No. It does mean, however, that it is not as strong as some of my other work.

What else can I learn from tracking the numbers? Well, my highest rated poem has a score of 4.92, and my lowest is 4.25. What does that mean? The only thing I can determine is that in general, I am pretty consistent.

Of the 61 poems presently posted, eight have scores of less than 4.50. What does that mean? Only that my voice is fairly strong, (and to the extent that I have been tinkering with poetry for close to 40 years, my voice should be strong!). It also means that those 8 poems might be deserving or more work.

The averages tell me little. My average score is 4.67. (Means nothing). My average number of votes is 9.97... one shie from getting an H. What's that mean? Simply, I need to strengthen my work if I want more votes, and therefore more "Hs". (Duh!)

As of today, the average number of reads is 232 per poem. Consider that many respected journals only publish 500 to 1000 copies. Readership averages tell me that any specific poem is only read by 25 to 50% of the circulation of a literary digest... which means that any given poem of mine at Lit is receiving the number of reads it would get at any specific journal... and in some cases, even more!

(Remember, Lit is a site for erotic stories... not poetry!)

Two last things on "numbers". I have 17 poems that have 9 votes, and have scores above 4.50. What's that mean? That I have to ask you all to read my stuff, and vote!

Finally, the most important number? The total number of reads. My stuff has been read a total of 13,135 times since coming here in July. That's the cat's ass! After all, why write poetry if it isn't going to be read!

Fretting over the plight of a single poem is a waste of time. Judging the strength or weakness of a poem by using the numbers at Lit is simply wrong... witness the one-bomber, and all the votes we have received from "friends".

The Top List, and the votes, and all that hoopla, are simply tools. Writing poetry is not a contest. There are no winners, or losers. There is nothing more than a consortium of struggling poets, writing and sharing. At Lit, that consortium is strong.

What more could we ask?

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

Damn jd! Do you have a spread sheet or something?

If I send you my numbers will you do my stats for me too? Get some sort of batting average? Do you do graphs?

One thing you forgot in your variables is sometimes big voters (meaning people who consistantly vote) take breaks from reading new poems, as they should damn it. Everyone needs a break. I remember one time there were days and days without a single H because a few people were away.

luck of the draw baby.

A good reason to put poems in your sig line, to remind people if they missed something.


The way I see it, there are about 20 core people here who vote at all with any kind of regularity. (Some people show up to vote on only one particular poet etc.) But overall, it is the same crew. (a right awesome crew at that) So what the numbers mean, really is how that group of people feel about your poem. Gotta keep it in perspective


okay I am really going to get my hair cut.

~anna

I'm a habitual voter. I give out many fives to the regulars, because, let's face it, they consistently awe us. Hey, does anyone give "encouragement" votes? I give newbies 5s for poetry that should be a 3. It may not be a good thing. I'm not sure. I want to encourage them to keep writing. Though, they may end up thinking their 3 poem is better than it is, and then they won't try as hard to improve. Voting on poetry is a serious, time-consuming responsibility!!! I'm breathless just thinking about it. Well, I have a stuffy nose, too...

I need a hair cut too, but I trimmed my bangs with some craft scissors and now I look like a goofball, and I'm way too embarrassed for my beautician to see it. So, I have to wait a month to get a hair cut.

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

I'm a habitual voter. I give out many fives to the regulars, because, let's face it, they consistently awe us. Hey, does anyone give "encouragement" votes? I give newbies 5s for poetry that should be a 3. It may not be a good thing. I'm not sure. I want to encourage them to keep writing. Though, they may end up thinking their 3 poem is better than it is, and then they won't try as hard to improve. Voting on poetry is a serious, time-consuming responsibility!!! I'm breathless just thinking about it. Well, I have a stuffy nose, too...

I need a hair cut too, but I trimmed my bangs with some craft scissors and now I look like a goofball, and I'm way too embarrassed for my beautician to see it. So, I have to wait a month to get a hair cut.

I give encouragement votes, a 4 where it should be a 3, but not generally 5's. I dont think you can spoil a new poet, wait, I guess you can, I know I got encouragement votes when I first came here for sure.

A man named Jimmy used a straight razor on my hair. It feels SOOO cool and there is nothing like the sound. I want to write a poem about it, but I think it has already been written But seriously, I would not know how to describe that feel and sound that is unique to a man named Jimmy pulling my hair tight and then slicing through each individual strand with a straight sharp piece of metal.

Go get it done, Eve, we can be crooked haired punks together.

(Did you use the shaped craft scissors? Like the pinking shears ones?)

 

[The_Fool]

Keep this up and I am going to post my sestina in a spreadsheet post again....

 

[postobitum]

Re: Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

I'm a habitual voter. I give out many fives to the regulars, because, let's face it, they consistently awe us. Hey, does anyone give "encouragement" votes? I give newbies 5s for poetry that should be a 3. It may not be a good thing. I'm not sure. I want to encourage them to keep writing. Though, they may end up thinking their 3 poem is better than it is, and then they won't try as hard to improve. Voting on poetry is a serious, time-consuming responsibility!!! I'm breathless just thinking about it. Well, I have a stuffy nose, too...

I need a hair cut too, but I trimmed my bangs with some craft scissors and now I look like a goofball, and I'm way too embarrassed for my beautician to see it. So, I have to wait a month to get a hair cut.

encouragement votes? The guy in me just felt his testicles shrink up to his adam's apple. Well, crap. Then again, I kinda write more when I think people are actually reading it and liking it...still sucks though.

But hey, don't let my temporary ego deflation stop you! lol

 

[jd4george]

Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

Damn jd! Do you have a spread sheet or something?

One thing you forgot in your variables is sometimes big voters (meaning people who consistantly vote) take breaks from reading new poems, as they should damn it. Everyone needs a break. I remember one time there were days and days without a single H because a few people were away.

I use a simple Exel spreadsheet. The only downside is remembering to change the formulas as a new poem is added... (10 seconds of time, assuming you're familiar with the program).

As for the "variables" you mentioned, they are one of the reasons that I am urging folks not to live and die by the numbers. Other than the general trends I mentioned, the numbers cannot tell you much... at least, not accurately.

The numbers show "market trends", in this case, mirroring the likes and dislikes of the readership. (That is no different than the omnipresent warning from most publishers, who ask you to read their publication BEFORE submitting. That way, you don't submit a love poem to a KKK rag.)

In the case of Lit, as the active readers/commenters/voters change, (for all the sundry reasons from folks taking a break, to newbies stretching their wings) so too does the "response" to various types of poems.

Therefore, don't take the numbers too serously!

I'm going to say it again: In my not-so-humble opinion, the only thing that really matters is the number of reads!

 

[Tathagata]

Re: Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

I'm a habitual voter. I give out many fives to the regulars, because, let's face it, they consistently awe us. Hey, does anyone give "encouragement" votes? I give newbies 5s for poetry that should be a 3. It may not be a good thing. I'm not sure. I want to encourage them to keep writing. Though, they may end up thinking their 3 poem is better than it is, and then they won't try as hard to improve. Voting on poetry is a serious, time-consuming responsibility!!! I'm breathless just thinking about it. Well, I have a stuffy nose, too...

I need a hair cut too, but I trimmed my bangs with some craft scissors and now I look like a goofball, and I'm way too embarrassed for my beautician to see it. So, I have to wait a month to get a hair cut.

I do that also
and there are some poets who will always get a 5...unless it's pure crap..which is unlikely.

I have taken a week or so off from voting and reading
it was just too much.
I found going back the last couple of days I'm better able to see what I like and what " isn't bad'
i vote on how it affects me...
all the other stuff " style, rhyme, puntuation" is secondary.

Eve...a goofball??
bwaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

anyway
i'm submitting stuff here and there and, in the end, all the numbers don't mean a thing when you submit.
so I pay them no mind.


Ommmmmmmmmmm

 

[jd4george]

Re: Re: Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

i vote on how it affects me...

Amen!

 

[Tathagata]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

Amen!

That is the bottom line
all the other skills can be learned ( learnt??)
but if you can't move people what good is all the other crap??

to be even more blunt ( i'm in a mood)
if you don't have anything to say
it doesn't matter if it's in 14 lines, iambic, haiku, or filled with stunning imagery.

but honesty and truth come through no matter what


ok sermons over
is it noon yet??

 

[WickedEve]

encouragement votes? The guy in me just felt his testicles shrink up to his adam's apple. Well, crap. Then again, I kinda write more when I think people are actually reading it and liking it...still sucks though.

But hey, don't let my temporary ego deflation stop you! lol

Not all votes are for encouragement. Some of the poetry I actually like.
By the way, who is the guy in you and why did his testicles shrink? Maybe you squeezed him too hard.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Re: Re: Re: On numbers and votes and such....

(Did you use the shaped craft scissors? Like the pinking shears ones?)

Let's just not talk about it.

 

[*Catbabe*]

Although it says number of reads in your user pages, all that number actually represents in the nuber of times your poem was opened.

You have no way of knowing unless they vote or send comments if they actually read your poem or backclicked after the first line.

The number of reads is an impressive number but I think the actual number of people who read poems/stories from start to finish is probably closer to the number of votes and/or comments a piece gets than the number of reads it has listed.

 

[postobitum]

Not all votes are for encouragement. Some of the poetry I actually like.
By the way, who is the guy in you and why did his testicles shrink? Maybe you squeezed him too hard.

I think his name is Bubba and there is a very good chance that I have stabbed him with a tampon in the past. Wow, that would make a really cool disturbing image, poking your inner self with feminine products. lol

 

[The Mutt]

The number that means the most to me is how many people have read the poem. It is usually ten times the number of people who voted. That disturbs me. Does it mean they hated it and just wanted to be nice and not give it a 1 or 2? Does it mean they didn't even read it all the way to the bottom? It only takes two clicks. Why don't people vote?
I rarely leave comments myself because I am so new at this I don't feel like I can give an informed opinion beyond "I liked it". But I always vote.
Why, people, why?

 

[flyguy69]

A trouble with attaching importance to the number of reads is that factors unrelated to the "quality" of the poem strongly influence this number.

"Erotic" poetry gets more reads than "non-erotic". Poems near the top of any day's list get more reads than poems near the bottom. Poems that say "oh baby cum in my mouth" in the title probably get more clicks than ones called Coffee in Wartime (alright, a shameless plug, I know) (but go read it anyway!). Many people have noted the irony of a legitimate poetry community wrapping themselves in porn for protection, but since the larger community at Lit remains porn-motivated, pandering to that motivation gets attention. Look at the number of poems that amount to little more than puerile stream-of-consciousness; would you feel proud of 100 reads/week of one of those?

Comments on my poetry; on the "New Poems" list, the boards, on email or in PMs; have become the only thing that matters to me. Including yours, Mutt!

 

[The Mutt]

A trouble with attaching importance to the number of reads is that factors unrelated to the "quality" of the poem strongly influence this number.

"Erotic" poetry gets more reads than "non-erotic". Poems near the top of any day's list get more reads than poems near the bottom. Poems that say "oh baby cum in my mouth" in the title probably get more clicks than ones called Coffee in Wartime (alright, a shameless plug, I know) (but go read it anyway!). Many people have noted the irony of a legitimate poetry community wrapping themselves in porn for protection, but since the larger community at Lit remains porn-motivated, pandering to that motivation gets attention. Look at the number of poems that amount to little more than puerile stream-of-consciousness; would you feel proud of 100 reads/week of one of those?

Comments on my poetry; on the "New Poems" list, the boards, on email or in PMs; have become the only thing that matters to me. Including yours, Mutt!

I'm a big fan of shameless plugs.

To Roxanne on her Birthday

 

[postobitum]

I'm a big fan of shameless plugs.

To Roxanne on her Birthday

For the record, dear sir, I looked all up and down your stuff and chose that one for the thanksgiving challenge (I pm'ed you about it tonight) WAY before you shamelessly plugged. So at least there are some people out there digging around for the good stuff.


And now, to follow your lead, a plug - GO VOTE PEOPLE!!

Consuelo

 

[annaswirls]

baby, cum in my mouth

Poems that say "oh baby cum in my mouth" in the title probably get more clicks than ones called Coffee in Wartime

um was that a dig on my poetry?
and what is wrong with cum in my mouth?

do you think that girls that type
cum in my mouth

on discussion boards get more reads than girls who do not say
Baby cum in my mouth?


how about poems that say cum on my tits? or ass?

do you think the location of the cum matters?


just curious, I am trying to broaden my reader base.


and will go to any lengths (and widths)
hmmm even volumes to do it.


tongue in cheek
of course

Many people have noted the irony of a legitimate poetry community wrapping themselves in porn for protection, but since the larger community at Lit remains porn-motivated, pandering to that motivation gets attention. Look at the number of poems that amount to little more than puerile stream-of-consciousness; would you feel proud of 100 reads/week of one of those?

I have learned that the community of lit is not as porn minded as one might think. It is just that the people here have been able to accept their sexual beast. Everyone has one.

Of course every single person here made a decision to click on a link for erotic reading. But, I have non-erotic poems with far more reads than my erotic ones. (I know you are right, though, just arguing for the sake of arguement)

And as far as the quality of erotica, I think that the general population of lit does not want the insert your tab a into my slot B and slam it till I scream kind of poem. I mean folks, everyone has sex, big freakin deal, we don't need a basic step by step replay, or maybe we do, I know I have picked up a few helpful tips around here

And I mainly write erotic poems because they are fun, they keep my sex life at home healthy and active, AND because I am posting my stuff at a site for Erotica, and I feel that it is important to keep my end of the unspoken deal, to evoke the sensual nature of human perception on a fairly regular basis.


Besides it is fun! Coming up with new ways of saying things like cum in my mouth and the like.

You do know I will be submitting a poem by that title for a little grudge match:


"another dead leaf poem"
vs.
"cum in my mouth"

to compare the number of reads.

I will send the data to jd for analysis.

I am inspired.

I think I will go get started on that

 

[jd4george]

Anna... I'll analyse the stuff for you, as long as I don't have to count each and every little sperm! Splatters? Maybe... but no way I'm counting the swimmers!

 

[flyguy69]

Re: baby, cum in my mouth

um was that a dig on my poetry?
and what is wrong with cum in my mouth?

do you think that girls that type
cum in my mouth

on discussion boards get more reads than girls who do not say
Baby cum in my mouth?


how about poems that say cum on my tits? or ass?

do you think the location of the cum matters?


just curious, I am trying to broaden my reader base.

Can I be your research assistant? I'll live on grad student pay!

 

[flyguy69]

Anna... I'll analyse the stuff for you, as long as I don't have to count each and every little sperm! Splatters? Maybe... but no way I'm counting the swimmers!

There may not be evidence, JD4G; Sometimes Miss AnnaSwallows.

 

[annaswirls]

There may not be evidence, JD4G; Sometimes Miss AnnaSwallows.

omg I forgot about that poem
I can't believe you posted the link! LOL!

it even shocked ME to read it and I wrote the little fucker

eek

where does that come from anyway?
I am sweet anna with sentimental spoons and quilts!


see, case in point
my fuck my poem
poems sink into obscurity faster than you can say
"Catch!"