Omniscient narrator

[Dearelliot]

I wonder how well it can work, writing in first person, if I try using an omniscient narrator to set the stage for the next scene.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I wonder how well it can work, writing in first person, if I try using an omniscient narrator to set the stage for the next scene.

It can work. I did something similar in Boat Talk, where two old friends meet at a reunion. The main story follows them current day with each getting a pocket story to tell what happened to their respective marriages. It's all first person, but the concept is the same, and it worked pretty well.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm curious what you mean by "omniscient" in the first person. Is the narrator a character in the story, or an invisible narrator in the sky?

I scanned ShelbyDawn57's story example, and I don't see that as omniscient. It's first person told from the point of view of the first person narrator, who has no access to the thoughts of others. Omniscient point of view is when the narrator can read and disclose the thoughts of all the characters in the story.

The two big problems with a first person omniscient narrator, as I see it, are a) the improbability that one person can read the minds of other characters, and b) the unnecessary intrusiveness of the first person narrator. Why do it that way? Why not just switch to third person omniscient, which is more traditional and "makes more sense" in most cases?

 

[NotWise]

I agree with @ShelbyDawn57 that it can work if the narrator is describing past events. Also with @SimonDoom, because getting into other character's heads is problematic. Something would have to give the narrator insight into what other characters have in mind.

If the narrator is recalling past events, then you can use limited omniscience. The narrator might understand settings and events where he wasn't present, but doesn't get into the heads of other characters.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

If you're trying to go for a Henry V style 'Chorus' character that narrates certain scenes, I think that would work as long as you specifically delineate where the omniscient voice ends and the POV character takes over. Something like:

Dear Reader, cast your memory back to the days of yore, when knights rode brave and tall and fair maidens swooned at their approach. On this day, one knight in particular, our dear Sir Robin the Bold, rode forth on his trusty steed Cumrag, looking for adventure. Would he find it? Yes. Would he survive it? Well, you'll see. But you're in for a ride, nonetheless.

Join me as Sir Robin begins his adventure ...

-----------

"You are the worst fucking horse in the kingdom, do you realize that Cumrag?" I growled. This fucking horse just up and quit on me again, deciding that instead of actually carrying me onward, he'd stop and crop the grass for the third time in the last ten minutes. It's like he didn't care at all that I was on his back, that I had places to be, maidens to woo, or all that.

I slapped him on his ass, spurred him with the symbols of my knightly caste strapped to my boots, and instead of moving, he ripped a massive fart and kept eating.

I hate this fucking horse.

Etc.

Something like that would work, I think.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'm curious what you mean by "omniscient" in the first person. Is the narrator a character in the story, or an invisible narrator in the sky?

I scanned ShelbyDawn57's story example, and I don't see that as omniscient. It's first person told from the point of view of the first person narrator, who has no access to the thoughts of others. Omniscient point of view is when the narrator can read and disclose the thoughts of all the characters in the story.

The two big problems with a first person omniscient narrator, as I see it, are a) the improbability that one person can read the minds of other characters, and b) the unnecessary intrusiveness of the first person narrator. Why do it that way? Why not just switch to third person omniscient, which is more traditional and "makes more sense" in most cases?

You're right, of course. My 'narrator' is not omniscient and not really a narrator. My intent was to illustrate that the story structure can work, that having a wrapper around the chapters in a separate voice or POV can work. It is also tricky to do effectively which is why I put a warming in a prologue to the story: "Be warned, the little three asterisk thing; ***, indicates a change in voice."


EDIT: And I got another free view on one of my favorite stories.

 

[SimonDoom]

EDIT: And I got another free view on one of my favorite stories.

It's one of the perks of contributing to this forum.

 

[AG31]

First person makes a character out of the narrator, rather than an invisible speaker in the sky (thanks, @SimonDoom). So if the narrator is a character, they, by definition, can't know all the thoughts of the other characters. Unless you're writing some weird kind of Sci Fi.

 

[Dearelliot]

Thank you all for your input and advice, it is appreciated.

 

[JGittes]

An excellent example I recommend is Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. It has two, concurrent, first-person narratives. One narrator frames the situation and occasionally provides commentary supporting Marlow's narration of his journey up the Congo River and its aftermath.

It's only 33k words, so take a look.

 

[SimonDoom]

First person makes a character out of the narrator, rather than an invisible speaker in the sky (thanks, @SimonDoom). So if the narrator is a character, they, by definition, can't know all the thoughts of the other characters. Unless you're writing some weird kind of Sci Fi.

An exception to this is a few of the Zuckerman novels by Philip Roth, like The Human Stain and American Pastoral. In each of these books there is a first person narrator, Zuckerman, but the primary protagonist is another person, whose story is told primarily in the third person POV by Zuckerman. The third person narrative relays events and thoughts that no first person narrator could possibly know, so we have to understand it as an imaginative reconstruction by the narrator of the life of the third person. It's interesting, but I never found it completely satisfying. I never quite understood why Roth felt compelled to write the stories that way. I felt that the inability of the reader to fully accept the narrative account as real undermined the power of the narrative.

 

[SerenaSteeleMonroe]

"I am God," I say, "and I have come to Earth to mingle with my creations." Moving inside everyone's minds, I'm a little disappointed I even bothered.

 

[TheLobster]

I don’t think I have much to contribute to this thread, because excellent advice has already been proffered.

I just wanted to pop in and say that I’d like to read more about the adventures of Sir Robin the Bold and his trusty, if a little obstinate steed Cumrag.

 

[MillieDynamite]

We are never closer to being a god than when we write. Our world unfolds before us, and we decide who lives or dies, who mates with whom, and what the weather is like. A dark and stormy night, a bright and sunny day, the midday sun beats down and scorches everything in sight.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

We are never closer to being a god than when we write. Our world unfolds before us, and we decide who lives or dies, who mates with whom, and what the weather is like. A dark and stormy night, a bright and sunny day, the midday sun beats down and scorches everything in sight.

More than that, the worlds and characters we create and let loose upon the universes live on beyond us as readers wrap them in their imaginations, taking our ideas, our creations and making them their own. How many of our creations live in the fantasies and dreams of others, morphing, changing, evolving, growing for the rest of eternity? How many universes have we created, how many 'realities' have manifested from our words? We are eternal. We are gods.

 

[TheLobster]

We are gods.

Gods who proclaim from on high, "Let there be cum!"

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Gods who proclaim from on high, "Let there be cum!"

I can't find them right now, but there are some alleged depictions of Freyr with his penis erect, and I believe I've read that he ejaculated into the fields to let plants grow, but that I think I read from a very unreliable source. It's been years since I checked those out, but if that's true...

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Gods who proclaim from on high, "Let there be cum!"

And there was cum, and it was good cum, copious cum..."

 

[SerenaSteeleMonroe]

And there was cum, and it was good cum, copious cum..."

And they were fruitful and begat hordes of children in their own image, in the image of their god did they beget.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

I don’t think I have much to contribute to this thread, because excellent advice has already been proffered.

I just wanted to pop in and say that I’d like to read more about the adventures of Sir Robin the Bold and his trusty, if a little obstinate steed Cumrag.

Goddamn it. I was trying to go for something cute to demonstrate my point, and now I've birthed a plot bunny.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I wonder how well it can work, writing in first person, if I try using an omniscient narrator to set the stage for the next scene.

It might work but I don't like it. That is one of the hard things about first person. The reader knows what he knows. How you manipulate the story so he discovers things is the trick. I prefer first person because of the ease to relate emotion or lack thereof.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Mixed narrative styles can be very effective, and terms like "third person omniscient" are more of a descriptive convenience than a perfect categorisation of stories, which don't always fit neatly between the lines. For instance, Pride and Prejudice opens with a style that would probably be described as third person omniscient, injecting some of the author's own snark, and then over a few chapters it shifts into following Lizzie's POV more closely.

But flipping between styles too much can be annoying for readers. IMHO it's something best used sparingly. If I'm planning to tell the rest of the story in first person, I'd be looking for ways to provide that scene-setting within the first-person perspective, resorting to a PoV switch only if I couldn't make it work or if there was some major benefit to it. If using perspective shifts, it's generally a good idea to make the transitions clear-cut, e.g. switching only at the start of a new chapter.

 

[Dearelliot]

In a first person story, I was thinking of an opening paragraph by an all knowing voice, paint a picture of the scene, the people, provide a little background that I feel will help the reader, and eliminate the need for presenting the info during what I hope would be the smooth flow of the story...I think that could work, but I wouldn't want that opening paragraph to be too long, so I might want to do it again, fine tune my characters later after the reader has had a chance to meet them...and another voice during the story worries me.

I'm thinking, I find some of my stories get too long, and this might help.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

That's the recipe for a big info dump - now, I'm not against that per se, as my readers know I tend to do this all the time. But there are ways you can get the info out there while doing it that might not need the omniscient narrator - at least, unless part of the background info is something in the head of another character.

 

[Fatdog25]

If you're trying to go for a Henry V style 'Chorus' character that narrates certain scenes, I think that would work as long as you specifically delineate where the omniscient voice ends and the POV character takes over. Something like:

Dear Reader, cast your memory back to the days of yore, when knights rode brave and tall and fair maidens swooned at their approach. On this day, one knight in particular, our dear Sir Robin the Bold, rode forth on his trusty steed Cumrag, looking for adventure. Would he find it? Yes. Would he survive it? Well, you'll see. But you're in for a ride, nonetheless.

Join me as Sir Robin begins his adventure ...

-----------

"You are the worst fucking horse in the kingdom, do you realize that Cumrag?" I growled. This fucking horse just up and quit on me again, deciding that instead of actually carrying me onward, he'd stop and crop the grass for the third time in the last ten minutes. It's like he didn't care at all that I was on his back, that I had places to be, maidens to woo, or all that.

I slapped him on his ass, spurred him with the symbols of my knightly caste strapped to my boots, and instead of moving, he ripped a massive fart and kept eating.

I hate this fucking horse.

Etc.

Something like that would work, I think.

Holy shit, this brings back a memory...

George Segal, Goldie Hawn, and Blackjack the Wonder Horse. The movie was called The Duchess and the Dirtwater Fox. The critics thought it sucked, I thought it was hilarious.

If you ever decide to do it, I'm going to read it.