OK Vee let's pretend

[HAMFAN]

that you are TS Eliot and I am Ezra Pound
(one of the great regrets of my life,
40 years ago and finding
a facsimile edition of the original Wasteland
with all of Ezra's crossings out
and compressions
... they should teach from this,
not some clean "final authorial intention"
by "T.S. Eliot", I thought,
but they didn't and they don't
... and it was oh so expensive
and so I cheaply read on
another law lecture gone)
So you've given us this to read

Before He was Him
byvrosej10©

tree dahlias in bloom, fifteen feet tall and straight as
that day we took our baby for a walk in his basic red backpack
it rained minutely, spattering the road, goading us to take him home
but we stayed and roamed the streets, admiring the maple leaf changes
and allowing him to sleep, his little head lolling to the side
blonde hair flying up in a crest, lips pouting in his sleep
and then our outing over, going home, he woke and asked for a drink
but it's winter when I close the album, as he comes in from school
and grunts at me whilst shutting the door, then goes straight to raid the fridge
all in the evening light that is greying like my hair.

and I'm thinking "wow, I like this
but there are some things wrong;
I agree partially with twelveoone"
["don't drag me into this" he screams]
So, first grab, I wrote
"I agree with 12 with this caveat"
and then -
"I perhaps see something like the memory of then and now, youth and age and ... this is the part that got me thinking ... the way in which our children are part of an us when young and gradually grow apart from us (a single us I note) in time."
So let's start with twelveoone
["don't you dare, I'm not going there"
he's a screamer]
line-breaks guiding reading
the first line "as" must drop, sure,
but more
compression editing
faster flow

so

this is what I did

tree dahlias in bloom, fifteen feet tall and straight
as the day (walking our baby
in his basic red backpack)
rained minutely spattered the road,
goaded us to flee for home
but we stayed
roamed the streets (admiring the maple leaves changing)
while he (little head lolling
blonde hair splaying lips pouting)
slept till outing over, off home,
he woke and asked for drink.
I close the album in winter
as (he comes in grunts me a greeting
slamming the door raiding the fridge)
the evening light greys my hair.

Obvious problem:
the he in the past is a "him"
- got to go;
this is he becoming him not him becoming he.
and also
two sentences, the first past tense
summer? "tree dahlias in bloom"
seguing into autumn?
"maples leaves changing"
[and notice now all bracketed material present tense];
second sentence present tense winter
[and the bracketed material present too].
Now how can that be?
for Chekov if a gun
was on the mantlepiece in Act One
it would go off in Act Three.
Your album is a gun.
Do you think I don't know what you're seeing?
(little snapshots we all take)
(here we are, three of us going for a walk) present to you
(here we are admiring the maple leaves) present to you
OK I made that up
but its a picture
{I don't care;
it's part of the imaginary garden round the real toad}
(here is his little head lolling blonde hair splaying lips pouting)
present to you
now
and now another snapshot
(he comes in grunts me a greeting
slamming the door raiding the fridge)
no punctuation one picture now
You think I don't know?
And no, no, no, no
similes "all in the evening light that is greying like my hair."
the evening light greys my hair.
but we, we know
its not the evening light
and its not time merely
and if I could get rid of that "he"
I would've
leaving the HIM unspoken
so
I close the album in winter
as (coming in grunting me a greeting
slamming the door raiding the fridge)
the evening light greys my hair.

this alien object, the him thing
we already know there's a
from your title
time to be economical
no redundancies

So ... I've finished with all the analyses
Your turn
love
your poem
not me not mine
despite the editing

You got my attention
well, you know what THAT means

I can't do reviews, I can't stand back
(well, I can
but I don't)

 

[vrosej10]

I am gunna go through this point by point, given that you have expended so much time on my poem, and I am very flattered, it deserves a nice thorough answer and by the by, I am of the school that believes a poem can never be completely finsihed...

that you are TS Eliot and I am Ezra Pound
(one of the great regrets of my life,
40 years ago and finding
a facsimile edition of the original Wasteland
with all of Ezra's crossings out
and compressions
... they should teach from this,
not some clean "final authorial intention"
by "T.S. Eliot", I thought,
but they didn't and they don't
... and it was oh so expensive
and so I cheaply read on
another law lecture gone)
So you've given us this to read

Don't ya hate it when that shit happens. Seeing how the great ones worked on their own stuff is instructive.
Before He was Him
byvrosej10©

tree dahlias in bloom, fifteen feet tall and straight as
that day we took our baby for a walk in his basic red backpack
it rained minutely, spattering the road, goading us to take him home
but we stayed and roamed the streets, admiring the maple leaf changes
and allowing him to sleep, his little head lolling to the side
blonde hair flying up in a crest, lips pouting in his sleep
and then our outing over, going home, he woke and asked for a drink
but it's winter when I close the album, as he comes in from school
and grunts at me whilst shutting the door, then goes straight to raid the fridge
all in the evening light that is greying like my hair.

and I'm thinking "wow, I like this
but there are some things wrong;
I agree partially with twelveoone"
["don't drag me into this" he screams]
So, first grab, I wrote
"I agree with 12 with this caveat"
and then -
"I perhaps see something like the memory of then and now, youth and age and ... this is the part that got me thinking ... the way in which our children are part of an us when young and gradually grow apart from us (a single us I note) in time."
So let's start with twelveoone
["don't you dare, I'm not going there"
he's a screamer]
line-breaks guiding reading
the first line "as" must drop, sure,
but more
compression editing
faster flow

so

this is what I did

tree dahlias in bloom, fifteen feet tall and straight my original intention here was the aussie express 'straight as...' you know what I mean but I like what you've done.
as the day (walking our baby
in his basic red backpack)
rained minutely spattered the road,
goaded us to flee for home
but we stayed
roamed the streets (admiring the maple leaves changing)
while he (little head lolling
blonde hair splaying lips pouting)
slept till outing over, off home,
he woke and asked for drink.
I close the album in winter the above all good stuff, however i think I prefer the original winter line
as (he comes in grunts me a greeting
slamming the door raiding the fridge)
the evening light greys my hair.

Obvious problem:
the he in the past is a "him"
- got to go;
this is he becoming him not him becoming he.
and also
two sentences, the first past tense
summer? "tree dahlias in bloom"
seguing into autumn?
"maples leaves changing" no I fact checked this one, tree dahlias flower in Autumn. I had actually questioned and verified. I'd though my memory was tricking me
[and notice now all bracketed material present tense];
second sentence present tense winter
[and the bracketed material present too].
Now how can that be?
for Chekov if a gun
was on the mantlepiece in Act One
it would go off in Act Three.
Your album is a gun.
Do you think I don't know what you're seeing?
(little snapshots we all take)
(here we are, three of us going for a walk) present to you
(here we are admiring the maple leaves) present to you
OK I made that up
but its a picture
{I don't care;
it's part of the imaginary garden round the real toad}
(here is his little head lolling blonde hair splaying lips pouting)
present to you
now
and now another snapshot
(he comes in grunts me a greeting
slamming the door raiding the fridge)
no punctuation one picture now
You think I don't know?
And no, no, no, no
similes "all in the evening light that is greying like my hair."
the evening light greys my hair.
but we, we know
its not the evening light
and its not time merely
and if I could get rid of that "he"
I would've
leaving the HIM unspoken
so
I close the album in winter
as (coming in grunting me a greeting
slamming the door raiding the fridge)
the evening light greys my hair.

this alien object, the him thing
we already know there's a
from your title
time to be economical
no redundancies

So ... I've finished with all the analyses
Your turn
love
your poem
not me not mine
despite the editing

You got my attention
well, you know what THAT means

I can't do reviews, I can't stand back
(well, I can
but I don't)

This poem was an experiment based on an exercise called 'Down the Rabbit Hole'. Basically the idea is to pick up on one small memory and try to recall everything that surrounds it and make it into a poem. The idea being we have so much detail in our minds from the everyday shit that we get up to, that we could write thousands of poems and not repeat ourselves. It was a memory triggered by a picture and I had all these floaty little scraps around it (cause I still had wicked baby brain from breastfeeding). The name is meant as a bit of a puzzle, so that one is staying. i have fucked round with this version a bit. I have gone back to the original format (which was different to the one published) and inserted 'baby' in a few places and this really works especially after the quasi-volta; it comes over all deliciously sarcastic. I believe god is in the details in poems. i believe that those that tread the fine line between enough detail and too much are the best
so I haven't killed off too many of them, but this is a matter of taste and your version is one equally valid take on my idea. There are possibly dozens of others which also work (frankly a sci fi version would be hilarious).

Before He was Him
tree dahlias in bloom,
fifteen feet tall and so straight like bamboo
the day we took our baby for a walk,
in his beloved red backpack.
it rained minutely,
spattering the road,
goading us to take him home
but we stayed and roamed the streets,
admiring the maple leaves
allowing baby to sleep,
his head lolling to the side
blonde hair flying up,
pouting in his sleep
And outing over,
he woke and asked for a drink
but it’s winter when I close the album,
as that baby comes in from school
grunts at me whilst shutting the door,
then goes straight to raid the fridge
all in the evening light that is greying like my hair.

 

[twelveoone]

that you are TS Eliot and I am Ezra Pound
(one of the great regrets of my life,



and I'm thinking "wow, I like this
but there are some things wrong;
I agree partially with twelveoone"
["don't drag me into this" he screams]
So, first grab, I wrote
"I agree with 12 with this caveat"
and then -

Hamfan,
Trust me you wouldn't have wanted to be either, Eliot celibate and alone for most of his life, Pound in an insane asylum. Interesting check out his cantos when he was in prison awaiting trial. Whew guy's nuts. heh, heh, heh Pound laughs to himself, get's off.

Now if you want to drag my name into getting VR to edit, rethink, you have my blessing. And you have my blessing and thanks for getting her to do it. (another failure to post to my glorious resume)

Because she has talent see this VR
But she doesn't think enough (at least eight times) before it is half way done
see this also
She has a great deal of respect from me, she comments, unlike the dead asses that submit and don't.Including a couple of E winners in the past
I saw a comment or two by you over in the wasteland, so you've already made a GOOD first impression.

VR “A poem is never finished, only abandoned.” - Paul Valery

 

[twelveoone]

tree dahlias in bloom,
it rained
in the evening light
that is greying like my hair.

to fu

change dahlias to lilies -comment by 1201

 

[vrosej10]

Hamfan,
Trust me you wouldn't have wanted to be either, Eliot celibate and alone for most of his life, Pound in an insane asylum. Interesting check out his cantos when he was in prison awaiting trial. Whew guy's nuts. heh, heh, heh Pound laughs to himself, get's off.

Now if you want to drag my name into getting VR to edit, rethink, you have my blessing. And you have my blessing and thanks for getting her to do it. (another failure to post to my glorious resume)

Because she has talent see this VR
But she doesn't think enough (at least eight times) before it is half way done
see this also
She has a great deal of respect from me, she comments, unlike the dead asses that submit and don't.Including a couple of E winners in the past
I saw a comment or two by you over in the wasteland, so you've already made a GOOD first impression.

VR “A poem is never finished, only abandoned.” - Paul Valery

Thanks for citing that quote. I could remember who said that.

Editing is probably my major bugaboo in poetry though when I write fiction and nonfiction I am an editing badass and a lot of people consult me for help.

i have read a collection of what was supposed to be Pound's best stuff and hated most of it expect for:

IN A STATION OF THE METRO

The apparition of these faces in the crowd ;
Petals on a wet, black bough.

Nice and haikulike, but NOT a haiku. Doesn't mean he's a bad writer, i just don't like him personally, other might and do.

 

[twelveoone]

Thanks for citing that quote. I could remember who said that.

Editing is probably my major bugaboo in poetry though when I write fiction and nonfiction I am an editing badass and a lot of people consult me for help.

i have read a collection of what was supposed to be Pound's best stuff and hated most of it expect for:

IN A STATION OF THE METRO

The apparition of these faces in the crowd ;
Petals on a wet, black bough.

Nice and haikulike, but NOT a haiku. Doesn't mean he's a bad writer, i just don't like him personally, other might and do.

depends on what you mean by haiku, the standardization of what is a haiku in English happened long after Pound wrote that. Chinese and Japanese poetry was just being translated shortly before Pound wrote that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Fenollosa

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3362/is_3-4_85/ai_n28576995/

The Japanese written language is 70-80% Chinese charaters.
Pound's involvement with poetry and his interest in translations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound's_Ideogrammic_Method
(BTW) if you ever want to understand what Senna Jawa is up to this is a good place to start

much the same happened earlier with the discovery of the Rosetta Stone and interest hieroglyphs, giving rise to symbolism in France

consider with skepticism
in other words go ask the Poet Guy if I'm right

I just discoved the Ideogrammic symbols for donuts gave birth to semiotics.
Allright I just made that one up, but dounts are shaped I and O, it does look like a binary opposition, and if we that a bunch of IIIII donuts and lay one on it's side we get - and then put another on top we get +, which somebody like
Saussure or Foucault must have did, only with eclairs, 'cause they're French.

 

[butters]

depends on what you mean by haiku, ...

dounts are shaped I and O, it does look like a binary opposition, and if we that a bunch of IIIII donuts and lay one on it's side we get - and then put another on top we get +, which somebody like
Saussure or Foucault must have did, only with eclairs, 'cause they're French.

*le pewwwww*

i eats your donuts. zen vot av you?

oopz, ze éclairs are messy eatins for a butty

 

[twelveoone]

*le pewwwww*

i eats your donuts. zen vot av you?

oopz, ze éclairs are messy eatins for a butty

you know people think I'm mad,
but it was worked out here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_Puzzle#42_Puzzle

and at that
I'm trowing in the towel

Best wishes for the new common year (I'm on a different schedule)
Chip, all

 

[butters]

you know people think I'm mad,
but it was worked out here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_Puzzle#42_Puzzle

and at that
I'm trowing in the towel

Best wishes for the new common year (I'm on a different schedule)
Chip, all

*waves*

 

[EroticOrogeny]

you know people think I'm mad,
but it was worked out here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_Puzzle#42_Puzzle

and at that
I'm trowing in the towel

Best wishes for the new common year (I'm on a different schedule)
Chip, all

Interesting.
Long ago I read that 137 might be a number with cosmic significance.
Unit less fundamental constant

 

[vrosej10]

depends on what you mean by haiku, the standardization of what is a haiku in English happened long after Pound wrote that. Chinese and Japanese poetry was just being translated shortly before Pound wrote that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Fenollosa

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3362/is_3-4_85/ai_n28576995/

The Japanese written language is 70-80% Chinese charaters.
Pound's involvement with poetry and his interest in translations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound's_Ideogrammic_Method
(BTW) if you ever want to understand what Senna Jawa is up to this is a good place to start

much the same happened earlier with the discovery of the Rosetta Stone and interest hieroglyphs, giving rise to symbolism in France

consider with skepticism
in other words go ask the Poet Guy if I'm right

I just discoved the Ideogrammic symbols for donuts gave birth to semiotics.
Allright I just made that one up, but dounts are shaped I and O, it does look like a binary opposition, and if we that a bunch of IIIII donuts and lay one on it's side we get - and then put another on top we get +, which somebody like
Saussure or Foucault must have did, only with eclairs, 'cause they're French.

I wouldn't give em to Foucault, you never know what he would do with them, but at least he'd come up with some cool theory about why he did it...

 

[twelveoone]

I wouldn't give em to Foucault, you never know what he would do with them, but at least he'd come up with some cool theory about why he did it...

Derrida would make 'em disappear without a

trace

did you like that one pabla?

Saussure: "Language and writing are two distinct systems of signs; the second exists for the sole purpose of representing the first".

Derrida: "Thank you for the eclair, Foucault didn't touch it did he?"

 

[Palba_Noruda]

I just discoved the Ideogrammic symbols for donuts gave birth to semiotics.
Allright I just made that one up, but dounts are shaped I and O, it does look like a binary opposition, and if we that a bunch of IIIII donuts and lay one on it's side we get - and then put another on top we get +, which somebody like
Saussure or Foucault must have did, only with eclairs, 'cause they're French.

Saussure: "Language and writing are two distinct systems of signs; the second exists for the sole purpose of representing the first".

Derrida: "Thank you for the eclair, Foucault didn't touch it did he?"

did you like that one pabla?

Aw, you're sweet, thinking about ME and all

I'm reminded of Octavio Paz (whose writing is entirely too sexy for me):

_________PASSAGE

More than air
___________more than water
more than lips
___________lighter lighter

Your body is the trace of your body

trace

Somebody needs to do a readable book on modern physics, derrida, cultural narrative, spirituality, and sexuality. I'd buy that book.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

I wouldn't give em to Foucault, you never know what he would do with them, but at least he'd come up with some cool theory about why he did it...

I've got a few ideas about what he might have done with them.

Or what he and Derrida might have done in private by themselves (at least in my imagination)

Or what I might do with Derrida as he reads his terribly complicated books out loud to me in his office LOL

 

[vrosej10]

I've got a few ideas about what he might have done with them.

Or what he and Derrida might have done in private by themselves (at least in my imagination)

Or what I might do with Derrida as he reads his terribly complicated books out loud to me in his office LOL

God I hated Derrida. Every single time I am set him I know I am going to be in for an overly wordy nightmare. Foucault is just as bad but his theories are so interesting you forget. Foucault was so crazy that he'd either warn them on his head or had sex with em.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

God I hated Derrida. Every single time I am set him I know I am going to be in for an overly wordy nightmare. Foucault is just as bad but his theories are so interesting you forget. Foucault was so crazy that he'd either warn them on his head or had sex with em.

Could be that all those French philosophers were just spouting so much fashionable nonsense.

 

[vrosej10]

Could be that all those French philosophers were just spouting so much fashionable nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, i am as left as your next liberal arts student, but I think Derrida was a philosopher in need of a sharpish editor. He tends to use fifty big words for something that could be said in ten little one.

Foucault is/was crazy but that is not neccessarily a criticism. Sometime those who are differently sane see things with a better perspective than the norms...

 

[twelveoone]

Aw, you're sweet, thinking about ME and all

I'm reminded of Octavio Paz (whose writing is entirely too sexy for me):

_________PASSAGE

More than air
___________more than water
more than lips
___________lighter lighter

Your body is the trace of your body



Somebody needs to do a readable book on modern physics, derrida, cultural narrative, spirituality, and sexuality. I'd buy that book.

I'll wait for the graphic novel.
The one thing Derrida did, (or at least I think he did, I would go back to check, but I'm sure it's not the same way I've read itthe first time, how's that pab, a Derrida joke, after all it is said you never understand the language until you get the jokes, so maybe I got something even if just a trace) did you forget where I was? The one thing Derrida did, was he insisted that the written word was equal to the spoken word.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Could be that all those French philosophers were just spouting so much fashionable nonsense.

I'm not familiar with either - Foucault reminds me of instances of his pendulum such as seen in science museums, while all that jumps to mind for me with Derrida is 'deride' owing to the similar sounds.
And I agree that taking science and mathematics from their primary context can lead to spurious and tenuous conclusions.

For example, a quantum leap is not so much a large but rather a discrete leap. Such can happen for example with electrons in atoms as in florescent lights.

In common usage a tectonic shift often appears to indicate a both rapid and large change. The results can be noticeable, such as the Himalayas, but India has been colliding with Asia for over 50 million years.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

Don't get me wrong, i am as left as your next liberal arts student, but I think Derrida was a philosopher in need of a sharpish editor. He tends to use fifty big words for something that could be said in ten little one.

Foucault is/was crazy but that is not neccessarily a criticism. Sometime those who are differently sane see things with a better perspective than the norms...

Indeed. His writing is not very "user friendly."

I'll wait for the graphic novel.
The one thing Derrida did, (or at least I think he did, I would go back to check, but I'm sure it's not the same way I've read itthe first time, how's that pab, a Derrida joke, after all it is said you never understand the language until you get the jokes, so maybe I got something even if just a trace) did you forget where I was? The one thing Derrida did, was he insisted that the written word was equal to the spoken word.

In these parts we call that one a Polish knee slapper: So funny I forgot and hit that special bone in my elbow.

How's that for a midnight special joke (or is it one minute after)?

Yeah I never got much out of that debate about spoken versus written (we had a thread going about spoken versus written poetry a while ago BTW).

I think his most important themes--difference, trace, supplement--work for either spoken or written language, right?

I gotta brush up a little on supplement, I have the vaguest, most incomplete idea of the other two...

I'm not familiar with either - Foucault reminds me of instances of his pendulum such as seen in science museums, while all that jumps to mind for me with Derrida is 'deride' owing to the similar sounds.
And I agree that taking science and mathematics from their primary context can lead to spurious and tenuous conclusions.

For example, a quantum leap is not so much a large but rather a discrete leap. Such can happen for example with electrons in atoms as in florescent lights.

In common usage a tectonic shift often appears to indicate a both rapid and large change. The results can be noticeable, such as the Himalayas, but India has been colliding with Asia for over 50 million years.

Yeah, I think those guys who wrote Fashionable Nonsense were pretty funny.

Though, I think it's only natural that the results and theories produced by scientists eventually become incorporated into the imagination of the untrained and get kind of confused, etc. The untrained try to understand them with whatever book-learnin' they have, which is only human I s'pose.

I'm plenty guilty of using half-understood science. I guarantee it. Just the other day I mentioned the theories of relativity as perfectly good reasons why we should abandon reason as we know it.

(But seriously, I don't think Derrida and all the rest would have done what they did if it weren't for Einstein's relativity and all the shit that happened in physics since then, most of which I don't even know about LOL.)

 

[EroticOrogeny]

-- cut--

Yeah, I think those guys who wrote Fashionable Nonsense were pretty funny.

Though, I think it's only natural that the results and theories produced by scientists eventually become incorporated into the imagination of the untrained and get kind of confused, etc. The untrained try to understand them with whatever book-learnin' they have, which is only human I s'pose.

I'm plenty guilty of using half-understood science. I guarantee it. Just the other day I mentioned the theories of relativity as perfectly good reasons why we should abandon reason as we know it.

(But seriously, I don't think Derrida and all the rest would have done what they did if it weren't for Einstein's relativity and all the shit that happened in physics since then, most of which I don't even know about LOL.)

You're right about relativity, especially special relativity, being one place where scientific concepts are perhaps mis-applied. The other key one is in quantum physics, where the Heisenberg uncertainty principle achieves similar dubious status.