Oh Goody! Another Grammar/Context Thread! Yay!

[jaF0]

Consider if you will ....


'Radar data {is} {are} not currently available'


I understand and accept that in mathematical, computer, research or science circles, 'are' is more correct since 'data' is considered plural. But in general conversation among the public, 'is' sounds more appropriate since we see the word data as singular. Along the same lines as 'water is' instead of 'water are' even though water is a collection of molecules.


Commence to the flogging of my opinion.

 

[Jada59]

I'm going with "is".

 

[SisterJezabel]

Consider if you will ....


'Radar data {is} {are} not currently available'


I understand and accept that in mathematical, computer, research or science circles, 'are' is more correct since 'data' is considered plural. But in general conversation among the public, 'is' sounds more appropriate since we see the word data as singular. Along the same lines as 'water is' instead of 'water are' even though water is a collection of molecules.


Commence to the flogging of my opinion.

Technically the data is a singular entity as is a team. Yes, the team consists of more than one person, but it is still a single entity. Technically one would write 'The Yankees is playing this weekend,' despite how silly it sounds!

 

[SimonDoom]

Usage, not etymology, dictates what is "correct." As used in standard English, the word "data" often is used exactly the same as "information." It's acceptable to treat it as a singular noun. I usually do in writing, and almost always do in speaking.

 

[AlinaX]

This debate always reminds me of the awkwardness of not using dice in the singular.

 

[jaF0]

Technically the data is a singular entity as is a team. Yes, the team consists of more than one person, but it is still a single entity. Technically one would write 'The Yankees is playing this weekend,' despite how silly it sounds!

While 'the team' is singular, the name of the team, 'the Yankees' is plural.

'The team is playing.'

'The Yankees are playing.'

 

[Brutal_One]

Some nouns can be both plural and singular where it is the context where is or are can both be correct. E.g. the sheep are all in the field. Typically if you are single one use the definite article. The farmer caught the sheep that was caught in the fence.

For data though I think is is always correct as it’s used for both singular and plural. The singular is datum.

Brutal One

 

[SimonDoom]

Technically the data is a singular entity as is a team. Yes, the team consists of more than one person, but it is still a single entity. Technically one would write 'The Yankees is playing this weekend,' despite how silly it sounds!

Every style guide will tell you the opposite, re teams: "The Yankees is" is never correct. It's always "The Yankees are . . .."

Where it gets trickier is when you have a singular team name, like the Miami Heat. The AP Style Guide, which is a lead authority for American journalism, recommends "The Miami Heat are . . .." So plural is generally preferred.

 

[jaF0]

America is singular.

The Rolling Stones is plural.

Bad Company and The Who confuse me.

 

[Voboy]

Make fun of it. Use it as a way to deepen your characterization; we all know people like this.

Have a couple characters discuss the radar data. Make one of them a pedant and make him insist on using the proper plural. Have the other characters mock him.

Profit.

 

[Brutal_One]

Make fun of it. Use it as a way to deepen your characterization; we all know people like this.

Have a couple characters discuss the radar data. Make one of them a pedant and make him insist on using the proper plural. Have the other characters mock him.

Profit.

Haha. I like that idea . Story characters discussing the proper use of grammar. It would work as you say if you has a character who was a stickler for that. Brutal One

 

[ElectricBlue]

America is singular.

The Rolling Stones is plural.

Bad Company and The Who confuse me.

The Stones are playing, The Who are playing. I think the common usage is that most bands are plural - it's implicit that the name refers to the members of the band, not the band as a singular entity. I don't know if that's a "rule" though.

 

[NotWise]

Consider if you will ....


'Radar data {is} {are} not currently available'


I understand and accept that in mathematical, computer, research or science circles, 'are' is more correct since 'data' is considered plural. But in general conversation among the public, 'is' sounds more appropriate since we see the word data as singular. Along the same lines as 'water is' instead of 'water are' even though water is a collection of molecules.


Commence to the flogging of my opinion.

"Data" is the plural form of "datum." It always refers to more than one piece of information. "Radar data are not currently available," is correct. A single radar datum is useful only as part of a large set of data.

"Water" is singular. "Waters" is plural, though the plural form has a more limited use than the singular. The singular normally refers to the aggregate fluid, and it's only used to refer to the molecule in a very limited context. The plural is used in the sense of (e.g.) "Territorial sea is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles from the coast."

That said, you can use it in dialogue any way you want. I had a similar question a few months ago. If I remember right, it was over the use of "they're," which was formally incorrect but common in dialogue.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Usage, not etymology, dictates what is "correct." As used in standard English, the word "data" often is used exactly the same as "information." It's acceptable to treat it as a singular noun. I usually do in writing, and almost always do in speaking.

Agreed. Speaking as a technical editor who studied Latin in school: when people try to settle English usage questions by reference to Latin grammar, it means they don't have any good arguments.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The Stones are playing, The Who are playing. I think the common usage is that most bands are plural - it's implicit that the name refers to the members of the band, not the band as a singular entity. I don't know if that's a "rule" though.

Apparently this is a point of difference between US and UK English. UK tends to treat all bands as plural, US is more likely to distinguish based on whether the name sounds like a plural.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/are-band-names-singular-or-plural

 

[jaF0]

^^^

The Pretty Things are playing.

Steppenwolf is playing.

The Animals are playing.

Gentle Giant is playing.


But there are still outliers like ... Derek and The Dominoes.

 

[Damoiselle]

Apparently this is a point of difference between US and UK English. UK tends to treat all bands as plural, US is more likely to distinguish based on whether the name sounds like a plural.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/are-band-names-singular-or-plural

Huh, yeah..."Muse are playing" sounds wrong. "The Killers" are playing sounds right.

 

[NotWise]

Agreed. Speaking as a technical editor who studied Latin in school: when people try to settle English usage questions by reference to Latin grammar, it means they don't have any good arguments.

They wouldn't need to resort to Latin grammar. They'd only need to refer to an English dictionary. That said, here is what Merriam Webster online says about the (US) usage of "data:"

Is data singular or plural?: Usage Guide

Data leads a life of its own quite independent of datum, of which it was originally the plural. It occurs in two constructions: as a plural noun (like earnings), taking a plural verb and plural modifiers (such as these, many, a few) but not cardinal numbers, and serving as a referent for plural pronouns (such as they, them); and as an abstract mass noun (like information), taking a singular verb and singular modifiers (such as this, much, little), and being referred to by a singular pronoun (it). Both constructions are standard. The plural construction is more common in print, evidently because the house style of several publishers mandates it.

It sounds like something the Chicago Manual of Style might address.

For my part, my Ivy League-educated employer absolutely insists that "data" is plural, and it seems wrong to me when I read it used in the singular. Usage in spoken English can be different without bothering me.

 

[KeithD]

Usage, not etymology, dictates what is "correct." As used in standard English, the word "data" often is used exactly the same as "information." It's acceptable to treat it as a singular noun. I usually do in writing, and almost always do in speaking.

Right. The American system covers "data" as allowable either in the plural or singular. Webster's covers this.

Less allowable, still, is something like "team." It's singular (a group) in American English and plural (individuals together) in British English (still, I think). One of my early jobs that involved editing was in "translating" British intel documents into Americanese for U.S. policy makers. This was a term we watched out for. The worst one, though, was "tabled." For the English, it's some brought onto the table; for an American it's something deadended from (taken off) the table.

 

[SimonDoom]

The worst one, though, was "tabled." For the English, it's some brought onto the table; for an American it's something deadended from (taken off) the table.

I didn't know that!

I can imagine all sorts of amusing mixups over that one.

 

[SimonDoom]

It sounds like something the Chicago Manual of Style might address.

For my part, my Ivy League-educated employer absolutely insists that "data" is plural, and it seems wrong to me when I read it used in the singular. Usage in spoken English can be different without bothering me.

CMS addresses this question in section 5.14 of the latest edition.

It recognizes that traditionally "data" has been understood to be plural, but that in modern usage it's often singular. It says that in formal contexts "the most reliable approach is to retain the plural uses unless doing so makes you feel as if you're being artificial, stuff, and pedantic."

I read that to say that in the context of fiction singular is fine.

It's like the word "media", which historically is plural for "medium." But I think most people now think of media in a singular way -- it's a term used to describe the communication/news/enterntainment industry in a collective, vague way.

Your employer's response, I think, is a case of education substituting for wisdom, because there's no reason whatsoever that English usage must be dictated by Latin grammar.

 

[jaF0]

"unless doing so makes you feel as if you're being artificial, stuff, and pedantic."

Which is pretty much the gist of what I posted originally. It's one of those where what's right isn't always what's best understood.

But I think most people now think of media in a singular way -- it's a term used to describe the communication/news/enterntainment industry in a collective, vague way.

Or as storage ... think CD, USB drive, etc.

 

[yowser]

there's no reason whatsoever that English usage must be dictated by Latin grammar.

Latin does have a habit of dictating from the grave.

Is there any other standard language (not a creole or pidgin) with so many mashed-up elements? Germanic heritage, with huge infestations of Latin and Greek, words and grammar? I remain astonished for any and all non-native English speakers who are able to master this bastard Mother tongue.

 

[NotWise]

Your employer's response, I think, is a case of education substituting for wisdom, because there's no reason whatsoever that English usage must be dictated by Latin grammar.

We are writing formally and technically, so his opinion is consistent with your quotation of CMS.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I didn't know that!

I can imagine all sorts of amusing mixups over that one.

Keith's example is a good illustration. Years ago I was negotiating a major contract with a bunch of American colleagues. I said, "We need to table that," meaning, "We need to bring that point to the negotiating table and get agreement on it, it's important."

They said, "Wait, in America, tabling something means the exact opposite."

WTF?

And then the French guy from the other company walked in.