Obligated military service versus the all volunteer force

[KillerMuffin]

Let's not let this degenerate into something nasty, okay?

Right now the US boasts the largest all volunteer military force in the world. Of course, that doesn't mean it's true, we do boast alot, don't we?

What most people don't know is that after the big downsizing in 96 and 97, something was discovered, something rather nasty to the powers that be. We don't have enough people in the military. The armed forces are now being asked to do twice as much with ten times less due to bad policy decisions and the rising public opinion that military service isn't worth much anymore. Too many on welfare?

In 1999 I read a disturbing blurb in the Army Times. The draft had been shot down in congress, again. Yes, in 1998 and 1999, according to this magazine, the Draft to supplement military numbers had been put to congress and subsequently shot down, by a much narrower margin.

Other countries in the world require obligatory military service. Men reach a certain age and they go into the military, will ye, nil ye. South Korean, Germany (I think), and Switzerland stand out most in my mind. These aren't backwater third world countries with mad dictators running the show either, but industrialized well educated nations.

Personally, I think everyone should be required to serve, male and female, in the military for at least 2 years. Why? Because the military teaches interesting things about accountability, responsibility, and practicality that just doesn't come anywhere else. Additionally, the future leaders of our country will be coming from this self same pool, and they may not be so quick to jump into every military action that comes down the pike. There are other reasons, but I don't remember them.

However, there are major drawbacks to this. Alot of people just flat out don't want to join the military, and who are we to tell them they have to? Among other things.

I do think, though, that if military enlistment rates keep going the way they are going, we will have to institute the draft in this country. The sad thing is that those who get drafted won't be an impartial mix across the board, they'll be expendables, at least in the minds of those with influence. Like Steve Earle said, "They draft white trash first round here anyway."

Thoughts?

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

It is a positive life experience....

for all healthy enough - to serve their country - in some fashion - for a couple of years. If that might be in the military as I would recommend - great.

My feeling is that - if you haven't served - you're not whole as a patriotic American.

 

[Purple Haze]

Serving in the military is a noble and patriotic way of life. My lessons and experiences in the U.S. Army will stay with me until my dying day. Teamwork, pride, honor and responsibility take on a new meaning in all branches. I highly recommend it.

Having said that, I think the draft is unconstitutional, and and I would hate to see it rear it's ugly head again. Any conflict threatening our people and our soil has produced an onslaught of volunteers, and always will.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[AJPLAY]

Getting worked up

Sorry I was trying to here quick. Went to post and had to reboot. So much for that great technology.

Got a little experience in this matter. What's better? Volunteer is the way to go. This country is very liberal and when have to watch that we don't mistreat anyone. Old ways are gone and the military has a new face. Bill Gates type can push a button or operate a computer. True there is more money to be made in the civilian sector, so the good ones go there. But there are those who need the experience that join the service first. They find their way and then move on. Some enjoy the experience and stay as a teacher to the others. Something about teaching that will do more for some than money.
Drafting is gone. It will not work until punishment is stiff and consistent. Trouble makers or people who don't want to be somewhere require to much manpower to keep up with. They also act like an infection that spreads to the healthy. People quickly realize if they don't want to be some where cause trouble. If you don't do your work then some one else will. This causes other problems with morale.
I could really go on but will end with this. Your military is not over worked. If you want to be some where you follow the rules. Drugs are drastically reduced and the education level of your military is at its' highest. They will fight because they are young and proud. They will be given the best technology available. They will win if you want them to and let them.
Sorry about going on so. I would love to get excited about some thing. Let me go look at that "cock tease" post again.

Just an opinion. We all have them....I know they usually stink.

 

[Silverlily]

I have to disagree with you Sparky, being military or former-military is not what makes someone a whole patriotic American. But that's a whole different thread.

As for mandatory service, as much as I would like to see the brat across the street learn some respect, I don't think the service is right for everyone. I pulled suicide watch enough times during basic to know not everyone is cut out for it.

Rather, I think they should have better incentives for volunteering. Most military families are barely making enough to get by, much less put anything aside. Benefits are constantly being reduced. The US needs to make it more lucrative for the best and brightest to join. The archaic method of promotion in some branches (stay in long enough and you get it, like a door prize) needs to be replaced with merit promotions. The education benefits that are in place now aren't bad, but they could be better.

Bottom line is, the military needs to start competing for the good employees just like every other business. Any company that does not take care if it's people will lose them. Government should be no exception.

 

[Ambrosious]

All young men should be required to serve in the military BEFORE they marry. That way, they will know how to take orders.

 

[Closet Desire]

Always with an opinion...

Hey Killer...

Just had to hop in on this one. I retired from the US Navy in late 1984, just after my boss (HG Ricover) was forced to retire...well...he was about 84 so that was probably overdue.

I think that one really positive thing I can say about an all volunteer force is the relative quality of those enlisting. The Navy, and I assume the other forces, place a tremendous value on human life and I always felt that great lengths were taken to provide weapons and equipment that was virtually unmatched by other major forces (living here in England I have to say I still think that is true). To operate that equipment required people who had some motivation to be there. I know that the people in my field were extremely well-paid for "employees" who basically held only high school diplomas (GEDs not accepted). We advanced quickly, got substantial bonuses, and lots of training. It was a valuable experience for me and in the end the VA also paid for two college degrees as well as my retirement pension. All in all I came out on top of the deal. I know that isn't everyone's experience so I'm not saying it was a great deal for everyone.

Here in England I was rather shocked to find that military service personnel (no, it's volunteer here) are largely viewed as one of the lowest classes. The pay is rotten and, according to a recent book which has been banned here in the UK, the service made decisions to expend people sent into a behind the lines mission in Iraq because it would cost too much to extract them. Contrast this with the efforts made by the US to rescue a downed pilot a few years ago. I remember picket ships in our battle group searching days for a pilot which must have cost in the millions of dollars for fuel, personnel, and delays. I was very impressed to think that such efforts would be made even when the odds were so dismal for his survival.

I like the idea of the volunteer services, but the rules of Capitalism apply. If you need the people you have to pay them what they are worth. If you do, you will get people to enlist who want to be there. How they feel about it afterwards is another story! Let's see it goes like this Navy...Never Again Volunteer Yourself! I went in during the draft and my opinion of many (not all) of the draftees was that I didn't want to count on them when the chips were down. They didn't want to be there, they felt like prisoners, and they took every chance they could to remind me of it. I'm glad I did it but there were lots of times when I wished I hadn't.

It's a hard job no matter what your rating or rank and is one career that is still much more highly regarded by Americans than many of the European nations.

Well...there's my opinon.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

I never said - it "had to be" the military!

I said service to "one's country."

It's my belief that too many young'uns have far too easy outlook on life - not only that - they feel - "life owes them something," for the mere fact of their existence. They arrogantly feel that they should be making huge (relatively speaking) salaries simply because their folks paid some money for them to get educated and they happened to pass and graduate.

I believe that nothing instills the correct, "values and qualities of life," like - "good hard, I don't wanna do this, but I have to work," And hardly any job I know - represents that to me like the military service.

It doesn't mean you have to "kill people," and if one is seriously adverse to the service, what? They allergic to green fabric? They can donate their time in other patriotic and volunteeristic ways. Not necessarily the military and not necessarily "killing people."

I'm not unreasonable - please. It could be time in a soup kitchen, anything, but it needs to be, "patriotic time toward ones country of birth and obligated and of low pay."

McDonald's doesn't count.

 

[Tamtam]

no way!

am i the only one that just doesnt want to join the military? it has nothing to do with patriotism, loyalty, or responsibility. i just dont want to do it. i can think of a few hundred other ways to serve mankind that i rather do. not every young person takes the world for granted and things they deserve lots of money and other material posessions. if they feel that way it is because their parents and the rest of the society allowed them to grow up thinking that.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

PS - I of course would never......

want non-hacking, dip-dunks, who don't want to be there - in my foxhole. But that's not what I'm talking about here.

I'm talking about educating children - initiating them with some good hard experience as to the ways of the world.

While I'm in the foxwhole - maybe they can be wrapping my chute, changing the oil in my chopper, or loading my clips. They can tend to the wounded. If they're concinnities objectors - they can help the homeless back home.

Something other than taking care of me, myself and I. It's only a couple of years and the experience would be shared and be of value the rest of their lives.

This is where I mention people think small. The word "draft" is mentioned and everyone automatically thinks - war, death of young men, and demonstrations. That's small thinking.

I'm talking about a draft to educate young people on "the real" facts of life.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Ps again -

I don't believe, no matter the back ground of a child - that they have any kind of real handle on life at such a young age.

Unless they happen to be blessed with a very unique intelligence and a doctor of something - the first few years of adult hood is best spent serving ones country.

Doing a couple of years at Burger King does nobody any good at all - fact is it harms - takes jobs away from the retired folks who need the money.

In my system, deferments for very special - highly contributing to society young folks or family obligation - would of course work to remove a child from the draft. But if yer a floor sweeper, a cab driver, or a ditch digger or even a junior stock broker wanna be -

Yer ass would be mine for two years.

Wha! Wha! Wha! I don't wanna go! Stomp! Stomp! I don't need to go!!!!

Yeah - well the mere fact that you act like that tells me you need it and need it bad - if you truly don't and can prove it - you don't have to.

 

[Thumper]

Suppose they gave a war....

..and nobody came?

I like that idea...maybe one day we will all(I include the rest of the world because until they grow up we will still need a military) stop killing maiming each other.

I believe the military is necessary as long as barbarity and ignorance exist.

I don't believe in compulsory military service. There are those who believe in total non-violence and it would go against everything this nation stands for to require them to violate their beliefs. If a war is justified(WWI andWWII) then I have no doubt righteous men and women would enlist. If it is not(Vietnam) then how can we require people to kill or be killed for something they do not believe in.

I am not so convinced a military background always makes a person better or more well rounded...I have met a lot of wackos fresh out of the military...'course I have met a lot of wackos that never were in the armed forces...come to think of it I have met a lot of wackos period! I gotta start hanging with a better crowd I think...


Make it more beneficial to serve...maybe lifetime medical insurance(Not VA care) and other types of "carrots" to dangle
*had to get the bunny angle in there*

I know how to take orders Ambrosious...do I follow them?
Oh Puh-leeeeeeeze

Sparky...my ASS is not yours...not for two years..not even two seconds...ever I am your equal and I will do as I please..that is my opinion..and that is all you or anybody gets.

[Edited by Thumper on 11-06-2000 at 01:38 PM]

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

There you go again -

Can you read? I'm not saying "a draft" - always equates with "the military."

It equates with - "selected, sanctioned, service to the country where you pledge your allegiance."

This service can hopefully have nothing to do with war.

Do you all read to fast? What is the problem? Read it again please.

 

[Closet Desire]

I don't completely agree...

...with compulsory service of any kind. I work with children all the time and those with the attitude that they are "owed" something are the exception rather than the rule in my experience. I think we would do a tremendous disservice to the country if we interrupted the education of intelligent and talented young people for two years so they could do a menial job for the government. I have one son whose momentum toward attending university would be seriously derailed if he was suddenly placed into a two year mandatory programme. I fail to see how this would benefit society at all.

I also agree with the previous response that neither military or compulsory service guarantees to produce a "fine" citizen. Sounds more like 1984 to me. We had a lot of screw ups in the military who were even more screwed up when they got out (or were forced out).

Character isn't "built" by the military, martial arts, or education. It has to be there in the first place...no amount of good intention will turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

 

[Cyan BloodsBane]

Canadian Point a view

I being a Canadian Citizen... Think that the military is not for everyone... I served 2 years in the force and I have seen a lot of good men and women be broken and never been able to be rebuilt.... The military is not the only thing that people should worry about... people also have to remember that in there own back yards there is more crime then wars and maybe the military who right now are not doing much can be put into use by helping reduse crime... Why not have manditory to work in the police force... firefighter....hospital(Got my EMS) or somewhere like that.. one reason is because not everybody has the ablitiy to be in those areas.... it takes a person with the right get up and go and skills to be in one of those areas. And the manditory service for different countries that have it is not all that great... 2 to 3 years and alot of those people go awall.. because they never wanted to be there in the first place or they leave before that time give up there citzenship.... You also got to remember those countries rules are that if you haven't servied yet and you are of right age and still a citzen no matter where you are then you most come back and serve or be charged....... I kow this for fact because my family comes from France.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Tamtam]

im currently in school studying to be a social worker. you know one of those people that helps protect the poor, neglected, and mistreated. im currently working for my BSW and then plan to go on to get my MSW and eventually my DSW. ive voluntered with abused women and children, handicapped children, drug and alcohol addicts, and poverty stricken in the slums of camden and jersey city. im only 20 years old and while i am well aware that i dont know every and that i have plenty to learn i also am aware of the "real facts of life" i am not rich. in fact i am currently struggling to pay bills and trying to find a way to pay for my education. i currently work a part time job, go to school full time, coach a middle school field hockey team, and volunteer in a nursing home. so tell me what more the military could give me?

 

[naudiz]

The proposal of obligatory military service does pose an interesting Catch-22. For Americans, our military protects our freedom, which is the foundation upon which the U.S. is built.

Including the freedom not to serve in the military. So to increase the military to protect our freedom, it compromises the very freedom our military is supposed to protect.

Sparky: While I am terribly nervous about handing my ass over to any human being for even two seconds (too many idiots; the numbers are against me for finding one that wouldn't fuck me up), I understand the sentiment. We live in a society where 'me me me' has become equated with individualism, and an utter lack of responsibility has become equated with freedom.

To step out of the realm of hypothetical situations: I am someone who is not healthy enough to serve in the military. Does that make me any less of a patriot? Does this mean I can never contribute to society and should be put down like a lame horse? I would like to think there aren't any people in this discussion that would say yes. There are a lot of things even I can do, and I do them, because I'd like to think if I were in a place where I needed help, someone would be there for me.

Americans: even if you just don't want to do military service, there are other ways to serve your country. There are women's shelters fighting against violence *inside* U.S. borders who need volunteers and donations desperately. There are children's hospitals, soup kitchens, missions, even schools who could benefit so much from just a few hours (or dollars) a week.

I think the U.S. (I'm not going to speak for other countries since I don't live in them) is lacking sorely in the discipline department. Our high schools are cranking out kids who have never lost the 'me me me' attitude that is a survival mechanism in small babies but doesn't create a healthy foundation upon which to build a society.

I'm not taking such an extreme view (two years against one's will is, to me, a bit much). However, I do believe we need some kind of a rite of passage to bring our children into adulthood. The military fills that role excellently for some. For those less suited to that kind service, maybe we should have other options.

Would it really kill a teenager to, in order to graduate from high school, have to volunteer for a few weeks in a nursing home to see what it's really like to be disrespected and ignored? Or a battered women's shelter to see what 'hard knocks' really means? I mean if that would be *so terrible* for a healthy teenager with a whole life ahead of him or her, think about what it must be like for those who are on the receiving end of said volunteerism. If you ask me, a few weeks out of my summer wouldn't be so bad by comparison.

 

[Cyan BloodsBane]

naudiz

naudiz...

It is true on what peoples believe now... that if it don;t help me then I don;t want to do it... But the people in the different services should be given rightful do because they hae done a great job at proctecting there country..

But also the people like you who are not 100% healthy should not be by left out there are many things that can be done.. nursing... cooks... so on.... and other at home(meaning the country) that have to be done....

I pesonal would hope that people would not look down on someone else jus because he/she could not run fast or play a musical instrument or is not very healthy...

But it is human nature t dispise the weak and thats the sad thing about life... People want to help but are either to scared to or just don't plain care.

 

[dancinvixen]

I think that Closet is onto something. I tried to enlist in the Army when I was fresh out of high school. I figured I could use any skills that I got, and then maybe, if I liked it well enough, I might stay in. My problem????? I was told point blank that the Army wouldn't accept me. I had to many defining marks. < Many of you are thinking tattoos, lemme say this, I don't have a single tattoo on my body and never have> No, my defining marks came because before I turned 18, I had had two life threatening operations. One was upon my wrist, they wouldn't have thought much about that one, except that it is "T" shaped. No I didn't try to commit suicide, it has never been an option for me<to easy a way out, I'm not an easy quitter> No, it was because I was stupidly playing Superman when I was 9 and went through a window.
Anyway, my husband is currently serving our country. But even he isn't happy with it, my younger brother also is right now, going through Ranger Basic. They are both unhappy with how the Army is turning out. Heck, my brother told me, that as of right now, he is the tallest and strongest guy in his Basic class, he's only 6'2 and weighs 215. My husband has been fighting for his promotion for over 2 years. On top of that, I have seen a family of four, just like ourselves, have to declare bankruptcy, because the pay isn't good enough. Even with a second job, the pay isn't great. I know many service members who are taking second jobs just to help, and their spouses are working also. Plus, too many of the service members are talking about getting out, because they can get paid 2-3 times more a month than what they receive now. Plus, here on Ft. Lewis, they just privitized(sp?) housing, and are currently talking about having us pay rent, water, sewer, trash, and electricity. Hello??? Many families move on post to try and save money. There's something wrong with this picture. The Army is a job supplier, albeit in a different sense, but still, they pay their guys to do a job, so why not make the wages competetive???

 

[teresafannin]

Many of my extended family members have served in some branch of the military & for some of them it was a very good experience, for others, not so good. My son had been talking to several different recruiters, but hadn't made a final decision. Most of the young people I know are involved in community service work. The high schools in our area encourage the kids to get involved. Most of the community projects I have been involved in, my son was right there working along side of me. There are so many more good young people out there, they just don't make the headlines like the bad ones do.

 

[CreamyLady]

I can't agree with obligatory military service. There are many people who are not suited for military service.

There are benefits, yes, and some people thrive on it. More power to them. I just don't think that a blanket requirement is the way to go.

 

[Lasher]

Having said that, I think the draft is unconstitutional, and and I would hate to see it rear it's ugly head again. Any conflict threatening our people and our soil has produced an onslaught of volunteers, and always will.

I just fucking hate it when people throw that phrase around. And it's almost immediately obvious that the person doing so has no idea what the fuck the US Constitution actually says.

Once again, I'm here to help out...

Article I, Section 8, US Constitution

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

[MunchinMark]

The German members of the board will either confirm or rubbish this, but I think that their national service can be either military or public service.

I think that, whilst obligatory military service would be a negative thing, a period in which young people (and I myself would go along with this myself) served their country in a manner of their choosing would be good for communities, administration and the young people themselves, who would get skills out of this that can get them jobs. But of course, if it isn't organised perfectly in the first place any obligatory national service would merely be a way of sweeping young people under the carpet.