Obama's Nobel Speech --poll.

my opinion of the speech is [pick the best suited]

  • a very historic speech

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • recognized US moral leadership

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • reassuring, but a bit grandiose

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • haven't read it, but i know it's crap.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Posts
15,135
it's at several locations, in full, e.g.

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/12/10/Full_text_of_President_Obamas_Nobel_Speech/

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRWjTDaT4JuS0nFj9APZAues8vjAD9CGFID00

what do you think of it? [excerpts, about 50%, below]

[SIZE=-1]Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, distinguished members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, citizens of America, and citizens of the world:

I receive this honor with deep gratitude and great humility. It is an award that speaks to our highest aspirations -- that for all the cruelty and hardship of our world, we are not mere prisoners of fate. Our actions matter, and can bend history in the direction of justice.

And yet I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. (Laughter.) In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors on the world stage. Compared to some of the giants of history who've received this prize -- Schweitzer and King; Marshall and Mandela -- my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice[…] I cannot argue with those who find these men and women -- some known, some obscure to all but those they help -- to be far more deserving of this honor than I.

But perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars. One of these wars is winding down. The other is a conflict that America did not seek; one in which we are joined by 42 other countries -- including Norway -- in an effort to defend ourselves and all nations from further attacks.

Still, we are at war, and I'm responsible for the deployment of thousands of young Americans to battle in a distant land. Some will kill, and some will be killed. And so I come here with an acute sense of the costs of armed conflict -- filled with difficult questions about the relationship between war and peace, and our effort to replace one with the other.

Now these questions are not new. War, in one form or another, appeared with the first man. At the dawn of history, its morality was not questioned; it was simply a fact, like drought or disease -- the manner in which tribes and then civilizations sought power and settled their differences.

And over time, as codes of law sought to control violence within groups, so did philosophers and clerics and statesmen seek to regulate the destructive power of war. The concept of a "just war" emerged, suggesting that war is justified only when certain conditions were met: if it is waged as a last resort or in self-defense; if the force used is proportional; and if, whenever possible, civilians are spared from violence.

Of course, we know that for most of history, this concept of "just war" was rarely observed. The capacity of human beings to think up new ways to kill one another proved inexhaustible[…]And while it's hard to conceive of a cause more just than the defeat of the Third Reich and the Axis powers, World War II was a conflict in which the total number of civilians who died exceeded the number of soldiers who perished.

In the wake of such destruction, and with the advent of the nuclear age, it became clear to victor and vanquished alike that the world needed institutions to prevent another world war. And so, a quarter century after the United States Senate rejected the League of Nations -- an idea for which Woodrow Wilson received this prize -- America led the world in constructing an architecture to keep the peace: a Marshall Plan and a United Nations, mechanisms to govern the waging of war, treaties to protect human rights, prevent genocide, restrict the most dangerous weapons.
In many ways, these efforts succeeded[…]The ideals of liberty and self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced[…].

And yet, a decade into a new century, this old architecture is buckling under the weight of new threats. The world may no longer shudder at the prospect of war between two nuclear superpowers, but proliferation may increase the risk of catastrophe. Terrorism has long been a tactic, but modern technology allows a few small men with outsized rage to murder innocents on a horrific scale.

Moreover, wars between nations have increasingly given way to wars within nations. […]

I do not bring with me today a definitive solution to the problems of war. […]
We must begin by acknowledging the hard truth: We will not eradicate violent conflict in our lifetimes. There will be times when nations -- acting individually or in concert -- will find the use of force not only necessary but morally justified.

I make this statement mindful of what Martin Luther King Jr. said in this same ceremony years ago: "Violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones." As someone who stands here as a direct consequence of Dr. King's life work, I am living testimony to the moral force of non-violence. I know there's nothing weak -- nothing passive -- nothing naive -- in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King.

But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: Evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms.


[…]the plain fact is this: The United States of America has helped underwrite global security for more than six decades with the blood of our citizens and the strength of our arms. The service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform has promoted peace and prosperity from Germany to Korea, and enabled democracy to take hold in places like the Balkans. We have borne this burden not because we seek to impose our will. […]

So part of our challenge is reconciling these two seemingly inreconcilable truths -- that war is sometimes necessary, and war at some level is an expression of human folly. Concretely, we must direct our effort to the task that President Kennedy called for long ago. "Let us focus," he said, "on a more practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions." A gradual evolution of human institutions.

What might this evolution look like? What might these practical steps be?
To begin with, I believe that all nations -- strong and weak alike -- must adhere to standards that govern the use of force. I -- like any head of state -- reserve the right to act unilaterally if necessary to defend my nation. Nevertheless, I am convinced that adhering to standards, international standards, strengthens those who do, and isolates and weakens those who don't.

The world rallied around America after the 9/11 attacks, and continues to support our efforts in Afghanistan, because of the horror of those senseless attacks and the recognized principle of self-defense. […]
And this becomes particularly important when the purpose of military action extends beyond self-defense or the defense of one nation against an aggressor[…]

I believe that force can be justified on humanitarian grounds, as it was in the Balkans, or in other places that have been scarred by war. Inaction tears at our conscience and can lead to more costly intervention later. That's why all responsible nations must embrace the role that militaries with a clear mandate can play to keep the peace.
America's commitment to global security will never waver. But in a world in which threats are more diffuse, and missions more complex, America cannot act alone. America alone cannot secure the peace. This is true in Afghanistan[…]

The leaders and soldiers of NATO countries, and other friends and allies, demonstrate this truth through the capacity and courage they've shown in Afghanistan. […]

Let me make one final point about the use of force. Even as we make difficult decisions about going to war, we must also think clearly about how we fight it. […]

Where force is necessary, we have a moral and strategic interest in binding ourselves to certain rules of conduct. And even as we confront a vicious adversary that abides by no rules, I believe the United States of America must remain a standard bearer in the conduct of war. That is what makes us different from those whom we fight. That is a source of our strength. That is why I prohibited torture. That is why I ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. And that is why I have reaffirmed America's commitment to abide by the Geneva Conventions[…]

First, in dealing with those nations that break rules and laws, I believe that we must develop alternatives to violence that are tough enough to actually change behavior […]

One urgent example is the effort to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and to seek a world without them. […] And I'm working with President Medvedev to reduce America and Russia's nuclear stockpiles.
But it is also incumbent upon all of us to insist that nations like Iran and North Korea do not game the system. […] Those who seek peace cannot stand idly by as nations arm themselves for nuclear war.

The same principle applies to those who violate international laws by brutalizing their own people. When there is genocide in Darfur, systematic rape in Congo, repression in Burma -- there must be consequences. Yes, there will be engagement; yes, there will be diplomacy -- but there must be consequences when those things fail. […]
This brings me to a second point -- the nature of the peace that we seek. For peace is not merely the absence of visible conflict. Only a just peace based on the inherent rights and dignity of every individual can truly be lasting.
[…] No matter how callously defined, neither America's interests -- nor the world's -- are served by the denial of human aspirations.

So even as we respect the unique culture and traditions of different countries, America will always be a voice for those aspirations that are universal. We will bear witness to the quiet dignity of reformers like Aung Sang Suu Kyi; to the bravery of Zimbabweans who cast their ballots in the face of beatings; to the hundreds of thousands who have marched silently through the streets of Iran. […]
[…]
Third, a just peace includes not only civil and political rights -- it must encompass economic security and opportunity. For true peace is not just freedom from fear, but freedom from want.
It is undoubtedly true that development rarely takes root without security; it is also true that security does not exist where human beings do not have access to enough food, or clean water, or the medicine and shelter they need to survive. It does not exist where children can't aspire to a decent education or a job that supports a family. The absence of hope can rot a society from within.

And that's why helping farmers feed their own people -- or nations educate their children and care for the sick -- is not mere charity. It's also why the world must come together to confront climate change. […]

Agreements among nations. Strong institutions. Support for human rights. Investments in development. All these are vital ingredients in bringing about the evolution that President Kennedy spoke about. And yet, I do not believe that we will have the will, the determination, the staying power, to complete this work without something more -- and that's the continued expansion of our moral imagination; an insistence that there's something irreducible that we all share.

[…]
Adhering to this law of love has always been the core struggle of human nature[…]
But we do not have to think that human nature is perfect for us to still believe that the human condition can be perfected. We do not have to live in an idealized world to still reach for those ideals that will make it a better place. The non-violence practiced by men like Gandhi and King may not have been practical or possible in every circumstance, but the love that they preached -- their fundamental faith in human progress -- that must always be the North Star that guides us on our journey.

[…]
Like generations have before us, we must reject that future. As Dr. King said at this occasion so many years ago, "I refuse to accept despair as the final response to the ambiguities of history. I refuse to accept the idea that the 'isness' of man's present condition makes him morally incapable of reaching up for the eternal 'oughtness' that forever confronts him."
Let us reach for the world that ought to be -- that spark of the divine that still stirs within each of our souls. (Applause.)
[…]
Let us live by their example. We can acknowledge that oppression will always be with us, and still strive for justice. We can admit the intractability of depravation, and still strive for dignity. Clear-eyed, we can understand that there will be war, and still strive for peace. We can do that -- for that is the story of human progress; that's the hope of all the world; and at this moment of challenge, that must be our work here on Earth.
Thank you very much. (Applause.)[/SIZE]
 
Last edited:
I watched it.

He kind of said what he had to to adress the whole hoard of big elephants in the room. It takes a bit of needle threading, but I think he pulled it off without exactly blowing anyone's mind in the process.

I give it a weak thumbs up and a meh. Not sure what poll option that fits.
 
Have to admit I didn't listen to the speech in its entirely (or even much of it). I had it on for maybe 10 minutes of the live portion and then have read a few articles on it. But I'm not that wild about giving this to him at this point anyway--I think it's a slap in the face to those who actually did the work beforehand and, although I understand why they did it (or maybe because I do), I'm not all that happy about being told what we should be doing. I don't see the Scandinavians taking responsibility or having to face the tough decisions on much of anything.
 
i have pasted extensive excerpts, just now. i find it in the tradition of some early Kennedy speeches. while the ideals are noble, their application through armed intervention where the US decides there is "injustice" or, more accurately "injustice" affecting its interests, remains subject to question; it's disquieting: a policeman's claim of the moral high ground.
 
I watched it.

He kind of said what he had to to adress the whole hoard of big elephants in the room. It takes a bit of needle threading, but I think he pulled it off without exactly blowing anyone's mind in the process.

I give it a weak thumbs up and a meh. Not sure what poll option that fits.

Yeah, I'm with Liar. It was really exactly what I expected, but at the same time, I was a little disappointed.

Meh.
 
I hate to be pessimistic. I would love to agree with all of the noble sentiments expressed in this very eloquent speech. But I don't think that the conflicts we are faced with lend themselves to a "just war" solution. The only way to defeat the Taliban is to cut it off at the roots, and that means eliminating the civilian infrastructure that nourishes it. If we are not wiliing to do that, we are going to be stuck in a stalemate forever.
 
Great speech and the message was spot on....Considering the mess he has to clean up and the challenges ahead, he'll earn that prize, no doubt....
I want him to succeed...I can't understand those who want him to fail....he is our duly elected leader, after all. I wanted Bush to succeed, even though I didn't vote for him. I just had to hold my nose for seven years...and pray for change....
 
Given that I think he's a socialist pinhead overall, I still have to give him props. It was a decent speech. Probably the best he could possibly have delivered, under the circumstances.

He also demonstrated that there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the Bush Administration and the Obama Administration, which I also find interesting, in a "stick it to the liberals" sort of way.......Carney

P.S. - I thought political threads were getting yanked from this forum?
 
note to carnevil.

P.S. - I thought political threads were getting yanked from this forum?

no, they are not 'yanked,' for there is no one to yank them, except Laurel, for violating basic Lit rules.

there are threads ranging from xmas cookies to 'whining republicans', from 'time spent writing' to mint juleps.
 
The day I found out my play sister is getting deployed to Afghanistan next year was the day I realized that I may have made a mistake casting my vote this past election.

I am seething like you wouldn't believe. You really don't want to try to argue with me on this.

I say it's a bunch of hot air bullshit. I MIGHT believe otherwise if I see it. But right now all I hear is a bunch of bull.
 
Nobel or not, Osama Obama wants what every first term pres wants...a 2nd term. This is starting to look something like when Johnson escalated Viet Nam. Pretty soon we will have 500,000 troops over there for no good reason.
 
Nobel or not, Osama Obama wants what every first term pres wants...a 2nd term. This is starting to look something like when Johnson escalated Viet Nam. Pretty soon we will have 500,000 troops over there for no good reason.
...and you think that will get him a 2nd term? I thought the American people were war weary.
 
The day I found out my play sister is getting deployed to Afghanistan next year was the day I realized that I may have made a mistake casting my vote this past election.

Why? Who would you have voted for? Both Obama and McCain declared during the campaign that this would be their Afghanistan policy. There was no difference between them on what they'd do in Afghanistan. No other candidate was going to win, so if you didn't vote for one of these two you would have just been wasting your vote.
 
Last edited:
...and you think that will get him a 2nd term? I thought the American people were war weary.

I doubt that's what sutherngent meant. The comparison was to LBJ, whose next election run was cut off by the war policy.
 
Why? Who would you have voted for? Both Obama and McCain declared during the campaign that this would be their Afghanistan policy. There was no difference between them on what they'd do in Afghanistan. No other candidate was going to win, so if you didn't vote for one of these two who would have just been wasting your vote.

Exactly. Either way, we'd still be sending troops to Afghanistan, and either way, we'd still be in a region that we have no business being in, and that quite obviously doesn't want us there.
 
If the truth be told Obama likely got screwed out of his share of the opium profits.
 
comments, and note to Southern Gent,

i think it's clear the afghan policy is a continuation of Bush's, and the 'surge' too, is reminiscent of Bush's.

regardless of rightwing rhetoric about 'weakness' [Cheney, recently] and 'softness on terrorism' [formerly communism], US foreign policy under Dems and Repugs is much the same: demonstration of US hegemony, while asserting a moral 'high ground.'**

the opium crops yields are up, in Afghanistan, and there's no reason to suppose that the CIA has abandoned taking its usual 'cut' of proceeds, to advance the cause of Karzai-- oops, freedom.

===

**i might add that this holds, largely, on the domestic front. Obama and Geithner's proposals to "rescue" the biggest banks, insurance companies, and car manufacturers --- in the national interest, of course-- is likewise a continuation of the multi billion dollar rescue scheme proposed by Bush and Paulson, his sec'y of treasury [and passed]. Geithner was formerly the Head of the Federal Reserve Bank in New York.

one may draw what conclusions one likes about the voters' ability to influence the course of things by switching from party A to party B.

===
Southern G: This is starting to look something like when Johnson escalated Viet Nam. Pretty soon we will have 500,000 troops over there for no good reason.

I don't think so. The calculus of the present and previous sec'y s of defense is that 'public opinion' will allow a few dozen combat deaths per month for a considerable period, and a couple dozen a month, indefinitely, and the present surge will produce an increase, within those limits.

my impression is that this move of Obama, rather, resembles Nixon's all out bombing of North Vietnam, prior to settling with them; i.e. it's saying "we are very much stronger than you; but yes, we are leaving; to continue is not in our overall interests."
 
Last edited:
i think it's clear the afghan policy is a continuation of Bush's, and the 'surge' too, is reminiscent of Bush's.

Uh, no. The Bush policy was Iraq first and Afghanistan second. The Obama policy (which would have been the same under McCain--or Hillary Clinton, incidentally) is Afghanistan first and Iraq second. There is a fundamental difference there--not the least being that the policy change is the logical response to 9/11 rather than the Iraq first policy the Bush administration instituted after 9/11.
 
Why? Who would you have voted for? Both Obama and McCain declared during the campaign that this would be their Afghanistan policy. There was no difference between them on what they'd do in Afghanistan. No other candidate was going to win, so if you didn't vote for one of these two you would have just been wasting your vote.

Sweetheart, I said I wasted my time casting my vote. By that I mean I shouldn't have voted in the first place. I'm aware that McCain would have screwed us. If I had been smart, I wouldn't have voted at all. Clearly it makes no difference.
 
...and you think that will get him a 2nd term? I thought the American people were war weary.

Oh, we are.

:rolleyes:

It will buy him a second term. Pretty soon the white supremacist/war monger/Neo Nazis of this country will be feeling as confused as young boy who likes to wear dresses.
 
If I had been smart, I wouldn't have voted at all. Clearly it makes no difference.

If you're talking strictly about the war, you're right. However, looking at the big picture, Obama's Supreme Court pick is reason enough to feel good about voting for the guy. Those who say there is no difference between Bush and Obama are totally missing the point. Several of us have C&P'd long lists of Obama's achievements since taking office - many of them reversing bone-headed Bush policies.

I'll admit to being totally disgusted with Obama at the moment, but this disgust has more to do with the corruption of the political system than with the man himself. We all want the guy to crack the whip and get everybody in line. Unfortunately, he is not a king, he is only a chief executive, working within the confines of a dysfunctional system.
 
He was in a difficult situation and handled it about as well as anyone could. He defended the U.S. position without pissing off the rest of the world in the process. Hell, his willingness and abiity to do that is probably why he was awarded the prize in the first place.
 
note on continuity.

the winding down of the iraq war and the ramping up of the Aghan war, represent a difference of Bush and Obama, in practice.

yet the underlying policy, continuing in the Obama administration, remains similar. "wage war in defense of interests, in the face of future imminent threats". since the perpetrators of 9/11 are not necessarily in Af'n any longer, the prosecution of war against "al qaeda" and 'jihadis" is essentially pre emptive in rationale, as in iraq.

Bush asserted several principles of what would be called "Bush Doctrine" beginning in his West Point speech of June 1, 2002. it emphasized defense of US interests by military and pre emptive means, if necessary

http://www.crimesofwar.org/expert/bush-intro.html.

Several points of the doctrine were subsequently elaborated in sections of the following National Security Memo.


National Security Strategy, Sept 2002
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/nsc/nss/2002/index.html


[Section] V. Prevent Our Enemies from Threatening Us, Our Allies, and Our Friends with Weapons of Mass Destruction
[...]


The nature of the Cold War threat required the United States—with our allies and friends—to emphasize deterrence of the enemy’s use of force, producing a grim strategy of mutual assured destruction.With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, our security environment has undergone profound transformation.

Having moved from confrontation to cooperation as the hallmark of our relationship with Russia, the dividends are evident: an end to the balance of terror that divided us; an historic reduction in the nuclear arsenals on both sides; and cooperation in areas such as counterterrorism and missile defense that until recently were inconceivable.

But new deadly challenges have emerged from rogue states and terrorists. None of these contemporary threats rival the sheer destructive power that was arrayed against us by the Soviet Union. However, the nature and motivations of these new adversaries, their determination to obtain destructive powers hitherto available only to the world’s strongest states, and the greater likelihood that they will use weapons of mass destruction against us, make today’s security environment more complex and dangerous.

In the 1990s we witnessed the emergence of a small number of rogue states that, while different in important ways, share a number of attributes. These states:

brutalize their own people and squander their national resources for the personal gain of the rulers;
display no regard for international law, threaten their neighbors, and callously violate international treaties to which they are party;
are determined to acquire weapons of mass destruction, along with other advanced military technology, to be used as threats or offensively to achieve the aggressive designs of these regimes;
sponsor terrorism around the globe; and
reject basic human values and hate the United States and everything for which it stands.

At the time of the Gulf War, we acquired irrefutable proof that Iraq’s designs were not limited to the chemical weapons it had used against Iran and its own people, but also extended to the acquisition of nuclear weapons and biological agents. In the past decade North Korea has become the world’s principal purveyor of ballistic missiles, and has tested increasingly capable missiles while developing its own WMD arsenal. Other rogue regimes seek nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons as well. These states’ pursuit of, and global trade in, such weapons has become a looming threat to all nations.

We must be prepared to stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and our allies and friends. Our response must take full advantage of strengthened alliances, the establishment of new partnerships with former adversaries, innovation in the use of military forces, modern technologies, including the development of an effective missile defense system, and increased emphasis on intelligence collection and analysis.

Our comprehensive strategy to combat WMD includes:

Proactive counterproliferation efforts. We must deter and defend against the threat before it is unleashed.We must ensure that key capabilities—detection, active and passive defenses, and counterforce capabilities—are integrated into our defense transformation and our homeland security systems. Counterproliferation must also be integrated into the doctrine, training, and equipping of our forces and those of our allies to ensure that we can prevail in any conflict with WMD-armed adversaries
.


Strengthened nonproliferation efforts to prevent rogue states and terrorists from acquiring the materials, technologies, and expertise necessary for weapons of mass destruction. We will enhance diplomacy, arms control, multilateral export controls, and threat reduction assistance that impede states and terrorists seeking WMD, and when necessary, interdict enabling technologies and materials.We will continue to build coalitions to support these efforts, encouraging their increased political and financial support for nonproliferation and threat reduction programs. The recent G-8 agreement to commit up to $20 billion to a global partnership against proliferation marks a major step forward. [...]


We must adapt the concept of imminent threat to the capabilities and objectives of today’s adversaries. Rogue states and terrorists do not seek to attack us using conventional means. They know such attacks would fail. Instead, they rely on acts of terror and, potentially, the use of weapons of mass destruction—weapons that can be easily concealed, delivered covertly, and used without warning.

The targets of these attacks are our military forces and our civilian population, in direct violation of one of the principal norms of the law of warfare. As was demonstrated by the losses on September 11, 2001, mass civilian casualties is the specific objective of terrorists and these losses would be exponentially more severe if terrorists acquired and used weapons of mass destruction.

The United States has long maintained the option of preemptive actions to counter a sufficient threat to our national security. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction— and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy’s attack. To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively.
 
Last edited:
I used to be involved in writing those NONSKIDS (as we called them), Pure, using lots of big flowery words and highflying concepts. That's not the government policy, though. That's what you put out for the public.

The government policy (which, as I said, was the thrust of H. Clinton and McCain as well as Obama) in that region is "It is and always was more about al-Qaida and Afghanistan than Iraq, stupid. So, get out of Iraq as soon as you can and move the focus to Afghanistan and the Pakistan border region. And, oh, by the way, see what you can do with Pakistan without them knowing we're doing it to them."

I don't have to agree with the policy, but there it is. And it's fundamentally different from the Bush administration policy in that region, which was "Clean up what Daddy didn't finish, using 9/11 as your paymaster excuse."

Back to the topic of the thread. I do respect Obama for not pretending his policy wasn't his policy in his Nobel Prize speech.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top