NY Central Park fiasco

[Fallen Angel]

I looked around and didn't see anything posted about this so here goes.

I think that what happened to the ladies in Central Park was awful. Luckily it didn't get worse than it did or there would have been girls gang raped and maybe dead. I think that the guys involved in the stripping and fondling of the women need to get slapped by the law pretty hard. While their actions may not have been real severe the terror they inflicted was.

The thing that really bothers me is the reaction of the cops both then and now. First they basicly ignored what was going on right under their noses and then didn't respond to pleas for help from victims or bystanders. Now it seems that they are rounding up everyone that shows up on the videos whether they were involved or not. This to try and take some of the heat off of themselves. I have seen some of the suspects they arrested along with their names but seen no actions against or names of the derelict officers. Why is it so hard for police departments to say that they fucked up and deal with the wrong doers on their payroll?

One other thing that bothers me is that the other people in the park didn't come to the aid of the ladies. Okay so there are 30 guys in a bunch acting up but they are in an ocean of folks. Me and a pile of rocks could have scattered about half of them. I know that I have the white knight syndrome and will ride out to save a lady in distress without stopping to think things through. I believe that there are many others like me out there but where were they that day or other times when one or two voices of reason might have stopped a wrong.

It has been said here and other places about what is the world coming to with the youth of today? The officers and the crowd were not the youth they were us!!! If we want the world to change we have to be the ones that make the effort not expecting someone else or our kids to do it for us.

Thanks for listening
FA

 

[Gatorboy]

I agree completely. It really bothers me that the people in the crowd even let things go as far as they did. Has society sunk so low to where people are not willing to help others in dire need when its obvious that they need it? Oh and please, if you ever see me in the middle of a crowd, getting beaten or seriously harrassed by a gang of people, PUT THE DAMN CAMERA DOWN AND HELP ME!!

 

[Weird Harold]

Oh and please, if you ever see me in the middle of a crowd, getting beaten or seriously harrassed by a gang of people, PUT THE DAMN CAMERA DOWN AND HELP ME!!

GB,

That would be a hard choice for me to make.

I have won exactly three fights in fifty years. On the other hand, I'm a very good photographer, and would be able to gather convincing evidence to prosecute your attackers.

Getting my ass kicked along with yours wouldn't help either one of us.

Now, if I happened to be armed, that would be a different story. If the situation presented some way to divert your attackers' attention without getting me and my camera trashed also, I'd take it.

Since I'm no match for even one healthy teenager, gathering evidence would be the best way of helping you against a gang.

 

[Siren]

 

[Svedish_Chef]

I almost thought exactly the same thing... I even saw it on the news in Aus. That is downright despicable yet that is what the world expects of New Yorkers... (Like the last episode of Seinfeld). Just one question though... who would willingly film it and just stand there, I'll either run or fight none of this observing for me.

OK I'm done, new soapbox.

Da chef

 

[Gingersnap]

It is easy to point our collective fingers at the incident in Central Park as a focal point of indifference. However it would be a lie to say this is a crime against women only.
For what it is worth I believe it is a essential lack on connection to other humans on a elemental level. After years of watching tv slack jawed at the atrocities that are committed every eight seconds we are desensitized. Hence this is just another series on tv only in surround sound. I had a brother who was paranoid schizo. he was hit by a car and left dead at the side of the road. To me this is the same thing operating. THank God for the elderly couple who heard the accident and followed these men and copied the plates. The only thing we can do is take a risk and as WH said do what we can to stop it and make sure there are punishments for crossing the line. It can be the seven year old who carries the gun to school and shoots a class mate or the sexual molestation of women in a park or in my case the brother we searched three days for it is still a crime of indifference. In my humble opinion...... Gingersnap

 

[Xander]

It's a tough one.

I'm not entirely sure what has happend in Central Park. I think that news bulletin eluded Denmark.

However as the matter of the angry mob riots.

I know everybody in Europe has in one way or the other seen this. I'm not sure about you US people though.

Soccer hooliganism has increased somewhat over the years. And we, here in DK had the UEFA cup finals here, not long ago. Between English Arsenal and Turkish Galatisarai (Not sure if that's the right way to spell it.)

I have never in my entire life seen anything remotely like it. The fights and the riots were so incredible violent. And anybody got hurt.

Oh there's a British camera crew. Let's hurt them!!! And they did.

Ah..there's a Turkish crew.....Same thing happends.

I'm not sure how many innocent bystanders was hurt also. But to what I hear It was quite a lot.

Now, normally I just can't walk by anybody getting hurt. Man or woman. But when it comes to large groups of people going beserk. I've learned my lesson.

RUN!!! Like you've never run before.

Only thing I can do in cases like this is. Get the injured out of arms way. Not matter who they are. And if possible, get them medical attention.
But to go head first into the fight is plain suicide. I do know how to fight, and I have won my share of them. But let's face it. How much can anybody really do alone when 10 angry people are going beserk??? That's right NOTHING!!
Except if you pull out a 12 gage and shot the whole bunch. Then again you'll pay by getting slammed with a murder #1 lawsuit.

My point with all this babbling?? I'll help in any way I can. I'll fight them if needed, and I can see that I have a small chance of getting the victim away by doing so.
But when it comes to large angry groups. I'd rather concentrate on patching the injured up, and get them out of arms way. Than fight the angry fuck ups'.
That will only get me killed. And I am quite happy with living sooooo, I don't want that.

 

[Kiss-met]

To say that what happened is whats to be expected of New Yorkers isnt very fair..although I can see the logic in this. Fact is, as a lifelong New Yorker, I too am frustrated by all these scumbags who make our city look bad. They should just cancel that damn Puerto Rican parade, it brings about nothing good, most of us New Yorkers just stay home when they have it...sure, marijauna sales go up, and malt liquor is consumed as if it were water..but thats only good for the spanish bodegas and the drug pushers..when the smoke clears and the dust settles...quite literally I might add..all we are left with are police charges, scandal, and garbage to clean up..its one thing if the Yankees win...but to cleanup after these people is atrocious..noone should have to go through what happened in Central park. I hate to say it, but I am so with John Rocker. He just voiced what real New Yorkers are thinking..Screw PC bullshit, or having to worry about hurting someones feelings..this country isnt built on the doctrines of Jeremy Bentham and Utilitarianism..its founded on the philosophies of Locke, jefferson, Madison etc..I am positive that the founding fathers are rolling in their graves at what this country has become..the decline in morality is absolutely sickening..I am afraid to admit that the Big Apple has become rotten to the core because of this..I am sick and tired of people coming into our city without having the decency to learn english or social manners, and thinking that everyone else should conform to what they deem is right. As the old addage goes.."when in Rome..."Have we forgotten this?? I mean, if I were to go to another country, I would not be so arrogant to go somewhere and just expect them to speak english, and when they dont curse at them under my breath..yet, that happens every day in New York when you cannot speak Spanish, or ebonics..What the hell is ebonics anyway?? This ultimately must fall on the way these people were raised; no respect for their elders, for the law, or for other people..If I went to another country, I would learn that countries customs and abide to them, I would try to learn..is that to much to ask for these days??Am I a racist...maybe..perhaps...I dont think so..I just cant stand people who continually butcher and abuse the english language..and people who also ruin the quality of life in the city..it just so happens that the majority of people who do these things happen to be blacks or hispanic...they make up a little over 50% of the cities population..yet, they are accountable for over 75% of violent crime in our city..thats not a random number either, those are cold hard facts. They make people feel uneasy and vulnerable...they always have a chip on their shoulder, and why?? Because after all the hundreds of years that passed, somehow they are still owed something..get over it...when does the statute of limitations run out on bitching?? People always love to blame this violent behavior on Rap music..maybe they are right, after all, that is what most of these people listen to..the irony of the situation is that had what john Rocker said been put to some hip hop background music, perhaps produced by eminem or the Wu-tang clan..he would have had a best selling single by now. Sorry for going off base, I had to vent..and before you slam me for what I have written...you better be from the tri-state. Otherwise, you really have no idea what I am talking about. Trust me on this...its no surprise that all my black friends from England or the islands, despise the blacks from New York. Because, THEY make THEM look bad..like these delinquents who make all New Yorkers look bad.

 

[Siren]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

No, Siren, I agree with him. Let's go back to the good old days when this coutnry was great. Like the 1950s! McCarthyism and no civil rights. Or the 1920s! Union busting, sweatshops, graft and gangsters. No, wait, how about 1900! No votes for women! Better yet -- 1776. Slavery, Native American butchery and the utter subjecgation of women. Women in the kitchen, Indians in the grave and blacks in chains! Yep, thems were the days!

America sure has gotten baaaaaaaad.

 

[Guest]

After reading Siren's post the words of Areosmith can to mind;

"There's something wrong with the world today
I don't know what it is
Something's wrong with our eyes

We're seeing things in a different way
And God knows it ain't his
I t sure ain't no surprise

We're livin' on the edge"

I think that statment needs to be said again...THIS IS ABOUT ALL OF US

 

[Kiss-met]

I am awake, and my eyes are wide open..do you even live in New York where you can say the things you say?? Its a nice idealisitc vision, but its not reality. You, I am sure have the luxury of not having to deal with the problems every day New Yorkers face. Intead of trying to be politically correct, and having to say the "right" thing..why dont you wake up, and see WHO caused the problems in Central park. As for everyone else standing by watching....its easy to sit behind your computer and chastise these people who just sat back and "watched". Its easy to say, if I were there...The facts are..fights are not settled the old fashioned way anymore, and the chances are that had someone tried to help..they would have gotten hurt, or worse. Its more then likely that one or more of the said assailants was carrying a gun. In case you havent noticed, thats one of the biggest problems in New York. I could easily say, yeah If I were there, I would have done something..mind you, I have been studying the martial arts for over 17 years..so I am more qualified to handle most physical situations then the average person. Still, I am not going to run into a scenario where there are way to many X factors...if you wanna bring a knife into the proverbial gun fight..fine. A black belt vs. a Glock does not a fair fight make. And the chances are the people who chose not to do anything did the smart thing..should they have called the police..of course. I am sure some did..for the ones that did not, well, thats pretty sad. As to why there is so much anger and hostility..just take a look at the world around..a world where music preaches hate, a world where 6 year olds are shooting each other, where Jerry Springer is a favorite show of the masses..come on. Are you really surprised?? It also must be pointed out, how unfair it is for everyone to continually lambast the NYPD..yes, they have made some mistakes..but for the most part. New York is a much safer place now because of them..you can do 99 good things, and its the one bad thing that tends to stick out. When they are doing their jobs, they never make the front headlines..its whats expected of them. And the thing is..more often then not, they are doing a fantastic job..The crime rate in New York is at an all time low today. As for what I said before..if you dont agree, thats your prerogative..however, facts are facts..you cant dispute the numbers. Whether you like it or not.

 

[Siren]

 

[Weird Harold]

I am awake, and my eyes are wide open..do you even live in New York where you can say the things you say?? Its a nice idealisitc vision, but its not reality.

No, I don't live in NYC.

I live in a low income apartment complex on the border of gang territory. There have been four murders in this complex, and one person from this complex found in the desert raped and murdered.

That is the reality I live with every day, and I only have one more thing to say:

THIS IS ABOUT ALL OF US!!!

 

[Angelique]

More than meets the eye...

I am awake, and my eyes are wide open...

Just because your eyes are open does not mean you can see, especially if you are only using tunnel vision.

Agreeing with the rest of you...This IS about all of us!

 

[Kiss-met]

Using your imagination after reading or hearing about something doesnt mean you "know" it. Yes, Siberia is cold..there is despair in the slums of India..Africa is hot, Central Park was bad etc.... By your logic I can say....losing your foot hurts, having cancer must be painful..but how can you really know unless it has happened to you?? You take empathy to a whole new level. You can't possibly even begin to fathom what its like to live in New York, if you dont already..you do not have the intimate knowledge needed to make such an assumption. You do not walk the streets here every day...you do not take the subways or the buses etc...I'm sure you mean well, but lets be realistic..You mean to tell me that by you saying the slums in India are filled with despair, that gives you the ability to fully understand and appreciate the capacity for anquish and pain these people carry..because you can place yourself in someone elses shoes, thousands of miles away?? Do you honestly think your perception would be equal to theirs? Its a rhetorical question. What happened in Central Park goes much deeper then what occured, it represents a microcosm of the citys struggle with crime. If its not this, then its murder, if its not murder, then its rape..if its not rape, then its that. My point was to illustrate who is mostly responsible for these atrocities. Like it or not. I guess my tunnel vision suits me well, as the numbers and statistics that I see, only prove what I have been saying all along. Ultimately, this is about all of us...how do we address the problem?? who knows. But I know it must start at home, where basic social graces and manners must be taught.

 

[Siren]

 

[Aresearcher]

Kiss-met:

As a former New Yorker (the Bronx and not the good part) I would say that you should move out if you feel that much stress. However, it's not much better out here in the rest of the US. New York only tends to magnify and concentrate the problems.
Yes, we do tend to take a "not get involved" attitude and yes the value of women is low among certain ethnic groups. That doesn't mean that the vast majority of human beings are not decent people. What is happening is that we are letting the minority rule the majority (notice I said minority -- not minorities). It is apathy that lets deplorable situations like Central Park happen.
And no, being a former New Yorker and having been involved in skirmishes before, I would have not gotten physically involved either. However, I would have tried to get help instead of observing.

 

[Gingersnap]

I feel the need speak here. I do not have to murder to feel the pain it causes there is a continuity of feelings. Despair,oppression,rage,joy,hatred,and hope they all translate into every language. We are more alike then different. Whether it is the torture and death of hundreds in Hati or the ethnic cleansing it is all violence and we are all victims here. We can change only ourselves however once you disturb the water you change the lake. Most of us have a internal voice that creates a code of conduct. This was created by family, society, and other social situations.
I don't have to live in misery to know it produces despair.
I don't have to live in a home where the adults are addicts to know that their children are feeling hopless scared and helpless. So you see this is what siren was saying. NO MAN IS AN ISLAND DUDE!!!!!! We cannot ignore the pain and desparation but neither do we have to live in it to see it's results. It is on the news everyday. Thanks for letting me rave on about it.

Now has anyone seen that monkey running through the room?


[Edited by Gingersnap on 06-23-2000 at 04:40 AM]

 

[Triatic]

New York, Schmew York. The only reason NYC gets a bad rep is because with so many people, and such a cross-section of people, problems tend to turn up there before anywhere else. It's a barometer of the times, and people don't like to be reminded of that. I personally live in Canada, and I can tell you, things are getting worse up here too...we just recently had riots in Toronto over a homeless demonstration. Bad stuff. How to deal? I've stopped watching the news - it only depresses me - and I do what I can to make the world a little more livable, right here and right now. It's all I can do.

~ignore the man behind the curtain~

 

[Fallen Angel]

I am not sure how this ended up with finger pointing and name calling. I only talked of NY because it is fresh in the news.

These things don't just happen on special days or when any one group is involved. It happens everyday almost every where. It is a sad state of affairs when we let others get hurt because we are afraid that we might get hurt. I know that if I plunge into a mob to try and help someone I will probably end up getting hurt or killed. If I stop and reason it out there are a dozen really good reasons not to do it, but if I don't try and you don't try then what? Do we let the mob rule? Do we close the shades when we see a guy chasing a girl down the street with a knife? Drive on by while a gang beats up a person on the street corner? Turn up the TV while the next door neighbor's wife screams while her husband smacks her around? The saddest thing is that there are many out there who argue that this is just the way it is and that we have to live with it.

Progress is not made by sitting on the side and waiting for someone else to come along and shoulder the burden. It is made by people taking responsibility for themselves and what is going on around them. There aren't enough cops or enough money to hire enough cops to enforce the morals we expect(at least that I expect)from society. There will never be an end to crime but it would seem that public displays of wanton misbehavior could be slowed by us the public being willing to get involved. This incident and others like it are much easier to stop in the beginning than once they have developed inertia and start snowballing.

Let's just look at how this one started. Kids (mostly) out all day it is hot and late in the day. First they steal a bunch of water bottles and no one does anything. Then they start a water fight and begin to form large group blocking the path they are on. No one trys to get them to quit. I am sure that at first it was just dosing some passing girls with water but quickly turned to trying to get the clothes off of the girls. The mob around growing all the time both with participants and spectators(all those innocent guys with cameras). The feeling of invincibility growing with the knowledge that the cops are right there and not doing anything and that the rest of the folks in the park are ignoring or avoiding what is going on. The longer it lasts the larger the group and the more they feel they can do anything and get away with it. Just how many guys with cameras were there, shielding the group from the rest of the world and prodding them to rip the clothes off of even more victims?

Yes we have come a long ways from the good ol' days because people were willing to get involved and put their necks on the line for others around them. Lots of the things are with us today graft, gangs, drive by shootings, loss of civil rights, women in the low paying jobs, Indians dying on the reservation and blacks locked up in jail! Justice that often depends on the color of your skin or how much money you have.

Do I think that we need to go throw ourselves into any fight we see that is going on? NO! But we do need to get our head out of the sand and realize that most of the bad stuff in society that we see is in large part due to our own apathy. Is crime a problem in your neighborhood then start a neighborhood watch program. Bad things happening in the park or elsewhere? Start fussing about it loud and often. One last thing PLEASE if you see someone in trouble put yourself in their shoes and act accordingly.

 

[Kiss-met]

You dont get it do you?
Well, no point in debating someone that has only one statement to make.
I appreciate your opinion, but again...I must reiterate for your edification...

THIS IS ABOUT ALL OF US.

now any other opinions for the pot?

Riding around your moral high horse, weilding your sword of virtue and screaming the battle cry of, "This is about all of us!!" Does not fall on deaf ears..You apparently only see what you want to see...and without voice inflection, that is an easy trap to fall into. With that premise in mind..you have failed to notice that I acknowledged your plea. I find your hypocrisy to be almost laughable..for if I take up one side of an argument, and you on the other..and we have voiced our opinions on that said matter..then would you not be making that same one statement as well as I, to support your feelings? I feel there is no need to discuss this further..you have your opinion and I mine. Nothing will change that..unless you come down for a visit in next years parade. Oh wait, they are currently trying to cancel it..my mistake..I didnt realise it was the "All of Us Parade"...and not the Puer..hmmmm...nevermind. You have to excuse me, I have a problem seeing and hearing..with my tunnel vision and selective hearing is all. Nevertheless, I do hope they do away with the parade in question. Because although it concerns all of us indirectly..we are not directly responsible for the crimes committed. I bid you a fond adieu. Have a nice weekend.

 

[Angelique]

Excuse me??

Kiss-met,

My reference to tunnel vision earlier, for any of you who didn't seem to follow it, was that you seemed to be dwelling on these issues as if they were concentrated solely in New York, when, in fact, it is a global issue. While I was not involved directly in the tragedies, I do sympathize with those who were. Now, there is a distinct difference between sympathizing and empathizing. For those of you who don't know the difference, allow me to quote directly from Webster.

Sympathy: (a) A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other. (b) Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.

Empathy: Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

Now, it seems to me that the people who have posted on this thread are merely sympathizing with the situation. I know I couldn't even fathom what it was like to be there, witnessing those atrocities. Does that mean that I'm unable to have any feeling for the people who were there? Not at all! As I stated above, the problems with violence these days are global!

I certainly don't know where to begin with a solution, and I'm not quite sure that there is even a way to rectify these issues. But one thing I'm feeling pretty confident in saying, is that continuing to take sides over who's "wrong" or "right" on where they stand in their opinions, will not do a damn thing to reduce these random acts of violence.

Rather than debate about who knows more about violence or who can "feel" what these victims have gone through, why not offer ideas on reducing risk? And here's one for ya', as said so beautifully by Aresearcher in an earlier post...if being in this environment causes you too much stress, then MOVE!

I'm a firm believer in choosing ones own destiny, or at least to a certain extent. And I'll say this: Number one, there would be no way in hell I would live in a high crime area. Number two, if absolutely HAD to live there, it sure as shit wouldn't be for long. You see, I value my life, and the lives of my children. I didn't decide to have children so that I could see their lives snuffed out due to a drive-by shooting, or anything of that nature, so I've made every attempt at keeping us in a lower crime area. And before you even think it, no, I'm not living in a glass house. I'm merely pointing out the fact that I, as a single parent, have done my best to reduce the risk. I don't believe I can ever eliminate that risk, as such violence has no boundaries.

On a final note, I'll say with absolute confidence that there isn't a person on the board, or in this world, who has the same EXACT feelings as you do. We are all unique individuals, and have our own ways of feeling and dealing with problems. So, to come down on the people who have posted their opinions and points of view, or accuse them of having a "higher than thou" attitude, not only amplifies your ignorance, but also your arrogance.

Ok, I'm off the soapbox...who's next?

 

[Kiss-met]

Angelique..since you have pointed it out, number 1..where are these high crime areas which you avoid, and who lives there, that you feel the need to avoid them?? Who is the cause of the problems??I thought so. Secondly, figuring that this is a global problem..what use would moving make?? Huh?? HUh?? Thought so. Dont contradict yourself because you feel its the right thing to do or say..your actions speak alot more then your words do. You feel its the PC thing to do to stick up for certain people, because our constitution dictates equality..yet, you wont live with the same people you defend. There is nothing you can say or do, that will change my perception. I will just continue to do as I have been doing, and thats to go to very expensive, and classy places to avoid the people I detest most..the safest being Schools, the library,Museums, plays etc..Places where it is least likely to find my anathema. Am I arrogant? yes. And I have no problem with that at all...but if you do...well, I really dont care. As I sit here sipping Cristal and wondering what you or others will say next...I cant help but think to myself..what a wonderful worldThe joys of being part of the cognitive and power elite....ahhhh..its good to be alive. Good luck with all you do, and be safe.

 

[Angelique]

I guess I gave you a little too much credit...you really are as stupid as you appear to be!

Let's see what we can do to shed some light on your profound statements, shall we?

Indulge me, if you're capable of that. I'll use myself as an example here, so that I can give you this information in the most simplest of terms.

For three years after my divorce, I was a welfare mom, living on shit for food stamps and even less for cash. Yep, I'll bet you categorized all people on welfare as being scum of the earth, too. Well, don't sweat it honey, I probably make more in a year than you do in two, so I won't hold that against you. Needless to say, I worked my ass off to pull myself out of the shit holes that I lived in? In case you didn't notice, the majority of subsidized housing areas are in rundown, filthy areas, overflowing with crime. I CHOSE not to live there, and worked pretty damn hard to make sure my children weren't exposed to that environment.

Now, 8 years later, I am no longer dependent on public assistance. I am a part of the work force, and I provide for my children with very little help from the asshole ex-husband.

AND, I did my homework before I bought my house. So I can safely say that the neighborhood I live in poses less risk to my own safety as well as the safety of my children.

What I meant when I say GLOBALLY, you idiot, is that these things happen ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! Did I say that these things are in every single persons face 24/7? NO! Take your head out of your ass long enough to breathe in the meaning of my statements!

As to WHO is the problem...I can only say that these problems are not limited to a specific national origin/race/skin color/or whatever the hell else you want to call it! To blindly state that all blacks (or any other color skin/race/nationality/etc.) in NY, or Akron, for that matter, are scumbags, not worth breathing the same air that you do, would be prejudice, not to mention, it would be a lie. So don't try to sell me your bullshit analyzations on WHO is the cause of all violence. You absolutely can NOT make a blanket statement like that. *I apologize if the term "blacks" offends anyone...not my intention*

Now, YOU have a choice, just as anyone else does. You can CHOOSE to live in NY, where you're so miserably unhappy with the crap that goes on in your neighborhood, OR, you can CHOOSE to move to a neighborhood where there is less crime. To be perfectly honest with you, I don't give a crap WHERE you live! My point, for anyone who didn't get it the first time around, is that YOU MAKE CHOICES, AND YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH THEM! Period! Nothing more, and nothing less! You don't like the environment, start calling around to police departments across the country to find a place to park your ass where there is LESS crime!

On a final note, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from answering your questions with ideas of what you THINK (and I use the term loosely) my answers would be.

Now, since you ended your comments to me in such a sunshining way, I feel obligated to toss a fairly nice response to you. Have a WONDERFUL life there in your little world, where nothing good EVER happens. I too, hope you stay safe, although by the sounds of it, I don't know that it's possible.