Number of views/votes.

[CND]

I've been wondering about the number of views a story has. Considering that I have submitted about a dozen stories by now, it's possible to see differences between the stories in the amount of votes and views they have.

On April 1, one of my stories got approved. It has less than 2000 views, while another story, approved April 2, has close to 20000 views. However they have approximately the same amount of votes and also similar ratings.

Perhaps not strange or puzzling, just interesting and almost funny to see.

 

[71bruce8]

views/votes

The views/votes situation seems to be a puzzling one. I notice in the most read-most highly rated lists that the most read and the most highly scored are not one and the same. It is interesting though that you would get similar scores, similar vote count but a big difference in views. Personally I tend to vote high. If I like the piece I give it a 4 or5 if it doesn't grab me I dont finish reading or give it a shrug at the end. Cant see tossing in a 1 or 2 to "punish" a piece. Any idea how some stories rack up astronomical numbers for views?

 

[Alex De Kok]

So far as views are concerned, I think that where you appear on the 'New' page makes a considerable diference. With my most recent submissions I struck lucky, in that when one appeared it was second on the page and when the other appeared it was listed third. In each case I picked up over 20000 views in the first twenty-four hours. I don't think this would have been the case had they been further down the list.

My 'most read' story however is in 'Incest'. Go figure!

Votes? Pass.

Alex

My Stories

 

[71bruce8]

votes

Well. 20.000 views in 24 hr. just for being high on the "new" list? Apparently votes are just chads trying to make a living. In the future I will refrain from voting and will consider a written reply as a valid response. Insest though has a real following. I think it relates to the fact that a persons sexual awakening happens at an age where the social context of most meaning is the nuclear family. Even if no real action has occured original stimulus is still associated with family members. Worth exploring I think.

 

[Jigs]

I tend to vote high. If I like the piece I give it a 4 or5 if it doesn't grab me I dont finish reading or give it a shrug at the end. Cant see tossing in a 1 or 2 to "punish" a piece.

71bruce8

I think that where you appear on the 'New' page makes a considerable diference.

Alex d Kok

I vote in much the same way as a 71Bruce8. I therefore regard a high number of views without a corresponding high number of votes to be a negative. Obviously such a story was either not good enough to take the reader to its ending, or at the least, it didn't motivate him to vote. I also agree with Alex that the number of views is greatly assisted by how near the top the a story appears on the "new list ", but I also believe that those views are meaningless either as to the quality of the story, or its future success.

The future success of any story depends on (1) the initial average score, and (2) the total number of votes it attracts. The initial average score puts the story on the first page of the top list for the category for at least awhile and gives it exposure. A large number of votes offsets the sabotage by the small but aggressive cabal of "1" voters who apparently think it's cute to knock down a story. I know there is a some debate about the existence of hard core saboteurs, but I am paranoid enough to be certain that they exist.

An equally interesting phenomenon is the almost universal decline in average score after a story leaves the "new list ". Of course this is partially caused by the sabotage voter, but there is something else at work here also. Even stories with 300 to 700 votes drift downward in average score, and this is despite the positive feedback that continues to brag on the story. I can only surmise that a reader tends to have high expectations for a story with over 300 votes, and even more so with one that has 600, and is therefore more critical in his/her scoring.

And then there is the popularity of certain categories over others. I am not the first to comment that the overwhelming popularity of the incest category at Literotica (measured by number of views) is beyond all understanding. When I include an incest scene in a story of some other category, as often as not I will receive negative feedback for having done so. Those who like incests stories apparently are addicted to them, but those who don't apparently despise them.

Equally puzzling, however, is that the average scores for the top stories in some categories is so much higher than others. A 4.50 score in some categories will be in the top 10 if not the top 3 of that list. In other categories, 4.50 will not put the story on the first page of that top list. I would assume those who do not care for BDSM would not read stories in that category. I therefore also assume that the subject matter is not the reason for average scores that are significantly lower overall than in, say the "wives" category.

Does anyone have a theory that might explain these conundrums?

 

[71bruce8]

scores

Hi Jigs. Some reflections on your contribution. First my voting style in general. 4 means got to the end of the story but various issues of style, theme, emphasis or whatever would have to be worked out before I could consider the story to be really "good". 5 says something about the story really touched me and opened me up to new possibilities, a turning point. Never vote 1,2, or 3. Possibly highter expections of a piece leads to tougher voting patterns. The sheer volume of choices forces people to seek some method of selection. Incest is a populal form I think because it relates sexual awakening to the important persons around one. Even if nothing ever happened if you are a horny 12 year old boy with a hot 15 year old sister something there is going to make an impression. In real life incest is a negative factor involving repression, exploition, lust etc. and will be replulsive to pretty well everyone but in fantasy the consequences are nill so let it all hang out. I haven't really looked into the high score factor in categories yet but I will do so and get back to you. Anyhow for me voting is a grade on the upside, comment is probably a more effective tool as it adresses the specific case. I see you have more posts than myself so I grovel at your feet. 71bruce8.

 

[Ray Dario]

Just my humble opinion but:

I think that different types of readers read the different types of stories.

BDSM is a tough category. Even the best crafted story with all the elements and a high erotic content is likely to receive, at best, a 4.5 score. They also tend to beat you up more on the feedback they give. Call it a common personality trait, I don't know.

Loving Wives readers are they for the sex. They want a slut wife screwing everything that moves and a few things that don't. Stories that are well crafted are often subjugated to those whose "Wife" fits what the readers are after.

Group sex is a lot like Loving Wives. Sex beats skill hands down.

Science Fiction/Fantasy I haven't figured out yet. They want a wonderful story and will really hit you hard if you screw up a detail or two. Sex doesn't seem as important, but then you throw in something weird into the sex and they seem to eat it up.

Of course all this is generalization and just what I think I see in the ratings. As for the other categories, I avoid them like the death and so I don't have the foggiest idea.

Ray

 

[CND]

Toplist might have done it.

Some scattered thoughts from reading previous posts.

It is possible that the toplist might have been the reason for the high view count on one story. It was rated 5 by the first ten votes, which of course placed it on the first place.

Considering that surveys have shown that an average person will give a webpage a few seconds of their time, it's not completely odd that a high initial toplist ranking will give views an extra boost. According to the same survey, an average person will only click through two pages, so if your story has a pretty high rating, and ends up on page 6 of the toplist, then it's likely that many won't get that far.

When I vote for a story I think of the many aspects that make up a story. Descriptions of people, rooms and surroundings, how people interact and how the storyteller paints the world in words. Many times it's difficult to explain why a story is better than another, but it's understandable that you would find a story better if you can relate to it.

I have yet to write a story in many of the categories, reason being that I can't relate to the idea of a category. I do not see my slightly narrow minded thinking as a problem, because many others might have similar feelings about categories I CAN relate too, and write about.

In the end, although views and votes may be signs of an invisible crowd on the net, it still doesn't mean more than the simple fact that my words, OUR words, find their way to a complete stranger far away. That is increadible, regardless what that stranger might feel, or rather experience, when reading the stories.

As a last note, I've had people writing me with thanks, also including the suggestions to print the stories on paper rather than reading them on the screen. They claim that there's much more room to spread their legs in bed.

 

[Guest]

I have to say that along with the 20000 plus views in the first twenty-four hours, I also the received the highest volume of feedback that I have ever received from a story. I value the feedback much more than the votes, 71Bruce8, so your intended methodology is fine by me! I agree with Jigs, too, that a mere total of reads/views is no indication of how good or bad a story is or may be. Just look at the 'Most Read' stories and check the titles against the Top Lists!

So far as votes are concerned, when a new tale of mine first appears I watch it like Mama duck watches her ducklings for the first few days, to try and get a feel for how it's been received. To take my latest piece, A Date for the Prom, that one hit the Top Lists with a 4.80 average from 10 votes, dropped quickly to about 4.64 after about 25 votes, then climbed slowly to 4.77 from about 170 votes, all in the first three days. Since then it has been slowly sinking. I stopped checking after a couple of days as the feedback was good and I value that most. I just checked on the story and it has 493 votes for an average of 4.60 from 37506 views. That is since March 18, when it was first posted. I'm happy, particularly as that story has also resulted in my greatest volume of feedback. It will be hard to follow, particularly as my muse has gone AWOL. Again.

Alex

 

[Alex De Kok]

Oops!

Sorry, that last post was mine. I thought I was logged in.

Alex

 

[OT]

The bell curve is evil

The bell curve is evil

I don't understand the flames I see against the "1" voters.

Brief aside - yes, I'm human and get extremely bothered by the anonymous flame or the (obviously bogus!) 1.

But that said, there is a feedback button on the bottom of virtually every web site on the net. How many provide feedback on every web site visited? Web site creators are "authors" too.

All rating systems suffer from inflation. By definition, most of us are average. Being average doesn't diminish the little bit of uniqueness that we all bring to the party.

Compared to the population at large, most writer here are 5's. But now within the writing community, the standards are higher and guess what -- some stories are better than others. And just as an occasional five breaks from the crowd, equally likely that there's more than one "1" huddled amongst the masses.

Although I'm guilty of hitting the back button rather than voting low, the more I try to make a point to vote, the more I'm driven to not shy away from the low vote. A no-vote-because-it-sucks translates to a tie with the loved-it-but-didn't-vote-for-whatever-reason.

If the "regulars" would commit to voting on every story every time (and no fair wimping out if you truly hated the piece!), then the bogus "1" voters would have little or no impact and, yes, some pieces would have a low rating, as honestly compared to their peers.

Unless there is a new option that says "allow only favorable votes", we should gracefully accept the 1's and boldly give them as well.


OT

 

[Ray Dario]

1 votes

I wouldn't mind getting a 1 vote if I felt it was not malicious, however many of the 1 votes I get are accompanied by an annoymous feedback that tells me they voted a 1, not because my story deserved it, but because they hate me.

Those 1's I don't like. I have come to call this tiny group of people my anti-fans. Funny thing is they are usually some of the first twenty or so people to vote on my stories. Which means they are active here at Lit. I only hope they are following all the sponsor links and creating revenue for Laurel and Manu.

Ray

 

[amyfirst]

In my teeny tiny experience, 4 poems, I get lots of readers, a few voters, all kind so far, and a few emails, most complimentary, one really weird!!!
Several comments and discussions on the Poetry Bulletin Board after my first posting there especially since my poems often deal with incest (as a fantasy on my part, though.).
I really liked your prom story, gave it a five.

 

[71bruce8]

views/votes

20,000 plus votes in 24 hr. Wow. A few years ago you could write something and be lucky to get a couple of friends to read it. I guess the vote high approach is a little anemic. Prob is that a story that really turns you off is just abandoned or offends in so many ways a reply is impractical and pointless. A good story allows you to focus in and comment. Constructive opportunity. Also a problem that all the complexity of the issues votes down to a choice of 5 numerals {too crude?} Can't appreciate the 1 voter though unless comment is provided. If you don't like the scene just leave. Got to admit there are whole sections of which I have read nothing.

 

[CND]

Stories vs Poems

Could it be that poems or stories make for easier feedback, votes and views? I am not really a poet, though I did try writing a single piece. The result of my attempt was a 1 vote, and that was the only vote it got for several weeks. To this date I've only received 7 votes on it, and it's been up for close to two months.

The vote I have received doesn't bother me, the fact that I have attempted to write a poem is enough in my own eyes, regardless what others think. However, from reading posts by poetry writers, I came to think that perhaps it's easier for a reader to vote on a poem, which normally is much shorter?

My Stories

 

[71bruce8]

Vote on poetry

I think poems are easier to vote on not only because they are shorter but because they tend to be impressionistic. A story needs characters, plot, sentense structure, dialogue etc. but a poem can just jump out naked and connect or not connect. The excellent poem can suggest a variety of possible stories without commiting to any particular situation. Poetry is not really a matter of choice but more of suggestion and mood. If the muses draw you poetry is the choice of expression otherwise the story is a much safer form of expression.

 

[Alex De Kok]

71bruce8 said

but a poem can just jump out naked and connect or not connect

I think you make a good point. Poetry has an 'immediacy' that prose does not. I only wish I could get into it!

On another point, I should be careful what I say - 'Prom' has picked up three '1' votes in its last five votes. I only know because I was looking at the votes for my answer on this thread.

Such is life! At least they're not ignoring me.

Alex

 

[jon.hayworth]

My experience as a relatively new author, with 8 stories published is much the same.
Incest certainly seems to guarrantee a large number of hits and votes.
The story I rate as being one of my best is Juliana's Last Stand that I placed in Erotic Couplings - in fact it is historic erotic fiction and defied finding a category - Feedback on the story was good, but it had few readers and very low numbers voting.
Another aspect to consider is that a lot of people download stories to read later. My guess would be that the longer the story the more likely this is to happen. The point I am making is how many of these readers return to vote - very few if any I would guess. Maybe this should be the subject of a poll.

Maybe the solution would be not to have scores, but a counter that scored only when the story had been scrolled to the end.

By the way Alex are you a James Joyce fan?

jon

 

[71bruce8]

poetry/votes

Alex

Re. poetry. If you think of prose as consruction with characters, plot ,dialogue etc. there is always an unknown element in the work which "pulls the work along", a sort of magic of coming together. I would call that poetry. In good poetry I can see glimpses of prose elements, suggestions of prose so to speak. I think that prose and poetry are deeply intertwined with poetry having little or no construction units whereas prose is control and construction with a subliminal poetic element. Make any sense to you?

Voting. A poll on voting seems a good idea to me although I don't know how to set one up. Idea here is to match readers with the materials they seek in an efficient manner. The present voting system seems to generate more or less random data and material for discussion but not always connection. First come up with a poll or figure out if a voting system makes sense at all, if not what next?

Alex- Will check out your prom story on the weekend and get back to you.

 

[Jigs]

I don't think you can win in the voting lottery. So much depends on personal preference, and the quirks of the individual voter. Here are excerpts from two feedbacks I recently received.

Your stories are wonderful. I haven't put a vote in on any of them, but I've enjoyed them immensely. I find it hard to vote when I'm torn between the writing style and the subject matter. (writing's a 5, subject's a 4) *** The 4s are there only because I like more extreme bondage and SM. Other than whipping (which I like) and the occasional slap / beating (which I don't like) you are soft in that department. *** The 5s are there because of the complete surrender to sex and orgasms. That's one of my fantasies...doing anything for sex, lots of sex.

Hi....I just finished reading the Christina series and I wanted to let you know that I enjoyed it very much. Being a woman I often fantasized that this would happen to me. The only critisim I have is that I did not enjoy the hitting part. There are other ways to force a woman to submit and I think I can speak for most woman that we don't fantasize about being hit violently.

There is no way I can please both these voters. One wants more S&M, the other wants less. The reader who really drove me up the wall, however, was the one who wanted more. She said she really enjoyed the stories (which must be true because she took the time to send feedback), but wouldn't vote AT ALL because she was uncertain whether they deserved a five or a four. Even more frustrating, she gave a five to my writing skill, but wouldn't give a five to the story because of a personal preference in erotica. Jesus, and I thought skillful writing was what this business was all about.

Perhaps I was mistaken, however. Upon reflection I can accept as a legitimate concept that the voter is grading the story on how well he/she enjoys it overall. If too much or too little blood and thunder takes something away for a given voter, he/she it is certainly justified in voting accordingly.

At the same time, however, this voter said the she did enjoy the stories, and even pointed out the erotic feature that redeemed them for her. Damn it all, I earned a whole string of fives, in chapter after chapter, story after story, from that lady and I'm terribly disappointed I didn't get them.

On the other hand, perhaps she has me more perfectly pegged than she knows or that I am willing to admit. Counting individual chapters, I have made more than 30 submissions to Literotica during the last 12 months. The overwhelming majority of those submissions have been in the BDSM and Nonconsent categories (where Ray Dario correctly called the voters tough).

I don't think I have a single submission that doesn't have an average vote of somewhere between 4.4 and 4.5. One of them has received more than 600 votes. Out of hundreds of feedback, I have received only two that could be classified as negative (and they were so expertly worded that it was almost a pleasure to be cussed with such verve and skill.).

That is a damned respectable record overall, and I know I should be satisfied, but it bugs me terribly that I don't have a single submission with a score higher than 4.5. Perhaps this lady's judgment was right on. Perhaps, I'm dead center between four and five, no worse, but no better either. Perhaps I ought to come to except that as a truth.

 

[Alex De Kok]

jon,

to take your last point first - I haven't read any Joyce. Perhaps I should.

The whole boiling pot of votes and views has been discussed many times on Lit, both here and in Author's Hangout. There are as many opinions as there are writers it seems and no one perfect solution has yet suggested itself, nor will it as long as the possibility of manipulation exists. There will always be the trolls, and I can think of no perfect solution. One advantage of a 'good' place on the New page is that it can be accompanied by enough votes so that an occasional 1 from a troll or other disgruntled reader has a lesser effect. I agree with Ray Dario that the occasional 1 may be merited. So be it, particularly if it is accompanied by the reason why the voter has so voted! And not just because (s)he dislikes that particular writer for some reason.

I read and enjoyed Juliana's Last Stand. Nicely different. I have a soft spot for 'period' erotic fiction. I always think that 'Fanny Hill' is actually a romance. I have a few ideas for a Napoleonic era 'bodice ripper' that may come to fruition.


Bruce,

I take your point about the 'poetic content' of good prose and to a large extent I agree with you. I still can't write poetry! I have to admit that I have made no serious attempt to either write or indeed read poetry. I promise to try.

So far as a poll on voting is concerned I honestly don't know what, if any, benefit it might have. As I said above the whole voting thing has been discussed at length before and you might care to scan the back posts before taking it any further.

I look forward to your opinion of 'Prom' - constructive criticism welcome.

Alex

 

[71bruce8]

Votes

jigs

I have read and re-read your post and would like to pose this question. Could a more elaborate voting system, say style/content/overall effect unclog the bottleneck and push you beyond 4.5? I.e. attract the more serious voter with a more refined theatre of judgement and therefore better assess your alingment with the real? Methinks that a more complex voting system would repell the casual and attract the devout. Thus overall improve the system. Hope here or no? Also in last line of your post you use the word except where the intended word seems to be accept. A Freudian explanation seems to be in order here, or more casually, what are you talking about?

Hope to hear from you 71bruce8.

 

[71bruce8]

prose/poetry

O.K. Alex.

I intend to meet you at the prom. What I expect to find is well crafted prose with an udercurrent of poetic life. The poetic element is not so much found as recieved, a revalition. I will attend the prom as a suplicant rather than a guest and see what happens. Poetry strikes you as a gift rather than a possession.

Go wth it 71bruce8

 

[MysteryWriter]

This discussion

comes up once a month at least. I had a stalker (I think it was a guy) who voted one on every story I had on the board twice in one day. How did he do that you ask. Simple used a different computer, (probably his dad's as opposed to his mom's again.)

It is a shame but you really cant learn much about your story from the votes. Hit the big board with a five and dive ten minutes later. Who watches the board that close... guess...

check the highest rated board a couple of times and you will see. I had a novel up with perfect five scores ten votes... it take minimum of four hours to read it. Within ten minutes it took two votes of 1. So dont tell me about how the one votes balances the overrated votes.

It is not just me it is universal. Why people bother is beyond me. There is no prize for being number one except your own personal satisfaction. How can you be satisfied if you are bombing everybody else. That sure as hell does not make you a better writer.

I had a friend tell me that she went into a chat room and heard an author telling her friends to vote low on a story so it would not get above hers. The person who supposedly said it was a highly thought of member of this community. So it is hard for me to take it all seriously. but like democracy it is the best game in town.

 

[CND]

1 votes

I've read what you all have written, trying to put myself in your shoes, yet still coming around to the same result. I can not vote any other way than what I feel is right.

I wouldn't think it was a correct vote if I voted 1 to sink someone. Then again, sometimes I believe those giving out the 1 votes aren't writers themselves. If they were they might not be so hasty to jump to the lowest vote.

However, only giving 4 or 5 as votes might seem strange too. Why have a five scale voting system if you end up using only 4 or 5. That won't make for fair votes and ratings either, although I understand that you're likely not to read through an entire story you would grade with an F.

Such is life, such is love, such is lust.

I hardly think a more advanced voting system will benefit us writers either. Having people vote is hard enough, putting them through the difficult task to grade writing skill, language, grammar, personal and environmental descriptions, how hot the story is, etc etc, it will only lead to less people voting.

Voting 1 through 5 is enough. Perhaps it could have been 1 through 10, but changing it now wouldn't be fair to the stories that are already posted. Give those reading our stories a fairly simple tool to tell us what they think, and they might use it. Make it more difficult and we might not get any votes or feedback at all.