Not negotiable

[Eilan]

First of all, let me say that I have a bad feeling about this thread, but I'm going to start it anyway. You've been warned.

My inspiration comes from two sources: this thread and one of Dan Savage's "Savage Love" columns that addresses a similar issue.

I've included a C&P from a May "Savage Love" column. Two separate questions, one from a woman and one from a man, appeared in this column. Both had to do with partners who wouldn't do oral. Since his answers were identical, I've combined them below, but here's a link if you want to read the entire column for yourselves.

Savage's response: Dump him/her. Cunnilingus/sucking cock can no longer be regarded as some sort of above-and-beyond-the-call indulgence. Cunnilingus/blowjobs is/are standard. Any make or model that doesn't come with cunnilingus/blowjobs should be immediately returned to the showroom.

I enjoy reading Dan Savage's columns even if I don't always agree with his advice. I have to admit that this advice has stuck with me since I read it, and I started really thinking about it after yesterday's thread.

I'm in a relationship in which both of us enjoy giving oral as much as receiving it, so in that respect I know that I'm more than a little biased. However, I'm also a big proponent of not forcing people to do things that they don't want to do. So I guess that leaves me sitting on the fence, as I often tend to do.

What do you think? Are there certain aspects of a sexual relationship that should be considered, as Savage puts it, "standard"? Why do you agree or disagree? Where does one draw the line?

 

[EJFan]

hmmmmm...

i think there are a LOT of things i could list here but most of them would be unrealistic and sophomoric. that, however, is why i'm terminally single i suppose.

the best, legitimate answer i can give would be closer to a philosophical thing than an actual "thing." the one non-negotiable thing i'd have to mandate would be respect. sounds sappy, i know. i'm talking about respecting each other's boundaries AND desires... and working with each other to be sure both are satisfied sexually.

 

[silverwhisper]

i happen to view the matter as you do, eilan. that said, i think it's common enough an expectation that it's unusual not to do this. i do however think it's selfish to expect (or worse, demand) oral sex but not return the favor and to me, that's definitely a model that should be returned to the show room.

ed

 

[bisexplicit]

Oral sex is not a neccesity for me. Either recieving or giving. I could have a relationship and survive without.
No sex at all would be difficult for me. And also no foreplay...I wouldn't be cool with that.
Hmmm. I'll probably say more later if I think of more.

 

[AppleBiter]

I'm with silverwhisper in that I think it's fucked up to ask for oral sex from your partner when you're not willing to return the favor. Either both parties should be givers, or no oral should take place. That's just my opinion.

I happen to absolutely love oral, giving and receiving, and luckily, my SO is the same way. However, I don't think anyone should expect that their SO would be into oral just because lots of people are. Lots of people are into ass sex, but I wouldn't let you put a greased BB up my ass and my SO does not want to ride down the Hershey highway, either.

It's all a matter of preference and I do think it's important to be open and to talk things out and to not be completely closed-minded to your SO's particular wants and desires. But, I think that if the partner who isn't wanting to try (insert sexual act here) has weighed all the pros and cons and decided that they would still rather die than try it, it should no longer be an issue. One person shouldn't do something that they don't want to do, period.

Then again, personally, I would be interested in at least giving something a try, if he were interested in exploring it because A.) I don't know if I'll actually like it or not, I'm just going on assumption, B.) It will please him in ways I can't even imagine, just the fact that I'm willing to try it, and C.) I love him and I want to please him and I accept him, even if he might like things I don't, so I'm willing to at least be open about it.

Don't flame me on that last comment, I'm not saying that someone who isn't at least open to new ideas doesn't love their SO. I'm just stating how I, personally, am. I think that if there are things that are to be considered standard in a sexual relationship, those things should be decided upon by the two people involved long before they escalate it to a sexual relationship.

My 2 Centavos (and maybe a few more ),

AppleBiter

 

[Ricwilly]

I don't think anyone should do anything sexually or otherwise that they aren't comfortable with. For this reason I think it's imortant to have sex prior to settling into a committed relationship. You find the person that fits you sexually.
I saw a woman on a talk show that was against giving oral sex to her husband. She had done it prior to marraige but refused after the "I dos". She said the reason brides were smiling was because they knew they never had to do "that" again. I found that attitude dismaying. I accept that the husband must have realized she didn't really enjoy it before but I still see this as false advertising so to speak.
For myself I couldn't live happy without it, both giving and recieving. I'm fortunate that my SO feels the same.

 

[Eilan]

the best, legitimate answer i can give would be closer to a philosophical thing than an actual "thing." the one non-negotiable thing i'd have to mandate would be respect. sounds sappy, i know. i'm talking about respecting each other's boundaries AND desires... and working with each other to be sure both are satisfied sexually.

I don't think that asking for respect is sappy--it's essential.

i do however think it's selfish to expect (or worse, demand) oral sex but not return the favor and to me, that's definitely a model that should be returned to the show room.

I mentioned in another thread that, because of what I witnessed between my own parents when I was younger, I'm inclined to rebel if I'm EXPECTED to do something. This has never really been an issue when it comes to sex, though.

I think that it's wrong for anyone--male OR female--to use any aspect of a sexual relationship as a weapon. Or even a bargaining chip, for that matter. My ex and I were both guilty of this when we were married, and this is something that's been easier for me to grasp now that a few years have passed. Since I'm aware that I've done it before, I make sure with my current hubby that we don't allow those kinds of situations to develop.

Oral sex is not a neccesity for me. Either recieving or giving.

I enjoy oral very much, but I could live without it if I were still having intercourse. I'm assuming, of course, that there's no oral, period. If one or the other of us is doing all the work, then that's a problem. Furthermore, sometimes attempts to "solve" the problem only make it worse, as we've seen in other threads. And I think that there should at least be an attempt to solve the problem before the "defective model" is returned to the showroom.

Don't flame me on that last comment, I'm not saying that someone who isn't at least open to new ideas doesn't love their SO.

Why would anyone flame you? I'm all for being open-minded in most situations.

I saw a woman on a talk show that was against giving oral sex to her husband. She had done it prior to marraige but refused after the "I dos". She said the reason brides were smiling was because they knew they never had to do "that" again. I found that attitude dismaying. I accept that the husband must have realized she didn't really enjoy it before but I still see this as false advertising so to speak.

This is sad. It reminds me of the time that my hubby was talking about his first wife and the "universal antidote to sex": wedding cake. For me, giving my hubby a BJ is about giving HIM pleasure; it's NOT about me at all. I might be aroused by it, but I can't orgasm from giving. However, I'm in control of his pleasure. That's the appeal, and that's why I don't see it as a chore.

 

[Râleclins]

Mmmh...

I've known a few (ok, they were only two) women who didn't want to perform oral sex, while receiving it was no problem for them. One didn't do it because she thought it was too dirty (She sometimes did it under the shower, but never until the end.) and another didn't do it because it made her feel she was a sexual object. Both times, I have to say I missed it a bit.

But what use can it be to try to force them ? How can we morally justify that we're making a woman do what she doesn't want to do ?

 

[Munachi]

I would say it depends on both partners. There are no standards - people are different. There are people who are really into oral sex, so for them a partner who doesn't want to do it might just not be the right partner. Others don't really care that much, and I even met guys that said they don't like receiving blow jobs...

In part though I think it can also be a cultural thing - just my personal and not that representative experience ... as I have been with people from quite a few different countries and there seem to be patterns of some regions where guys very willingly go down on a woman while in other regions the percentage of guys thinking that is gross is a lot higher. Of course that is based on just a very few examples.

As for the reciprocal thing... I guess actually expecting something without being willing to return the favor is quite selfish. Accepting it without wanting to do it yourself is different though - What I mean is, that I for example see giving a blow job as something quite intimate that I am not doing as easily as having sex with someone. Some of those guys that I had sex with but did not give a blow job to, did go down on me though. I did not make them do that, or expect it from them - but I don't think not stopping them from what they were doing makes me selfish.

 

[SweetErika]

What do you think? Are there certain aspects of a sexual relationship that should be considered, as Savage puts it, "standard"? Why do you agree or disagree? Where does one draw the line?

Despite your bad feeling, this is a great question/topic.

My "standard, non-negotiable" list:
-Respect
-Affection before, during and after
-Desire and effort to give and receive pleasure
-Willing and able to communicate about sex and give/receive feedback
-Overall touching and foreplay (a friend's husband almost never touches "down there" )
-A willingness to try new things sometimes
-Willing to use fairly standard toys sometimes (e.g. vibes, scarves, maybe a mild anal toy; not a 14" butt plug or whips)

I have and can be happy and satisfied without oral or intercourse for a time, provided I have all of the other things. I wouldn't say either is unusual or unreasonable to expect, but if one of us had a physical or trauma-related reason that was being worked on or couldn't be fixed, the lack of either wouldn't be a relationship-ender. So, I suppose both are standard, but negotiable under certain circumstances for me.

In a same-sex relationship, I'd probably put oral in the non-negotiable category. And, "I want him/her to do it, but I'm not willing to reciprocate happily" from either of us is unacceptable to me.

I don't think anything on my list is unreasonable to expect from a partner, but it certainly varies from person to person. All that really matters is that the people involved agree on, and are happy with, the requirements.

 

[Typo Fu Master]

Are there certain aspects of a sexual relationship that should be considered, as Savage puts it, "standard"?

All people are unique. If two people want to enter a relationship, they should communicate and be aware of each other's needs. While I'm not suggesting each take turns asking the other about every sexual aspect known to man, from anal to watersports, I do think someone is in for a let down if they don't both make an effort to find out about the most common things people do with each other: oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex.

If it's something most people think of as "standard" like oral sex, and one of them, for some reason, won't perform it on their partner, they should discuss it. If the only reason given is that he/she doesn't like it, then the partner of that person is perfectly within their right to no longer give oral. If this causes an eventual breakdown in the relationship, then it was probably never meant to be to begin with.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if anything at all should be considered "standard", it should be straight, plain ol' intercourse. Everything else is icing on the cake. If, during the course of lovemaking, they discover something about their partner that they weren't aware of and aren't comfortable with, they should talk about it. I also agree that these things are best discovered before entering marriage.

 

[Eilan]

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if anything at all should be considered "standard", it should be straight, plain ol' intercourse. Everything else is icing on the cake. If, during the course of lovemaking, they discover something about their partner that they weren't aware of and aren't comfortable with, they should talk about it. I also agree that these things are best discovered before entering marriage.

Communication, communication, communication. It's essential in any relationship, but based on a lot of the threads that get started around here, it isn't happening for some reason.

Oh, and welcome to Lit from a fellow Ohioan.

My "standard, non-negotiable" list:
-Respect
-Affection before, during and after
-Desire and effort to give and receive pleasure
-Willing and able to communicate about sex and give/receive feedback
-Overall touching and foreplay (a friend's husband almost never touches "down there" )
-A willingness to try new things sometimes
-Willing to use fairly standard toys sometimes (e.g. vibes, scarves, maybe a mild anal toy; not a 14" butt plug or whips)

Not the 14" butt plug? Where's your sense of adventure? How about the 18" butt plug instead?

In all seriousness, this is a very good list.