None Dare Call It Treason? I DO!

[Unclebill]

Chinese to tour sensitive facilities

By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The Pentagon is hosting a group of Chinese strategic military planners whose trip to sensitive U.S. military facilities is raising questions in Congress about violations of law.

The delegation from China's Academy of Military Sciences arrived Friday and is headed by Gen. Wang Zuxun, the new head of the academy that is developing military doctrine on how China can use advanced technology to defeat more powerful foes like the United States, said Pentagon officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

See this link for the whole story: http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-2000824224615.htm

For those of you who support the Democrats in their efforts to perpetuate the Clinton-Gore reign of lies, criminal behavior and treason, I hope this may give you some concern to rethink your choice.

 

[Thumper]

Just one noid please...

...I don't need a paranoid.

Bill, just curious is there anything or any group of people that you don't have an hysterical fear of?

Just how are the ominous Chinese going to destroy us?

Nukes....nah we had a standoff with the Soviets for 45 years that was based on MAD and they eventually caved...albeit due to the horrendous inefficiency of their system and the ever increasing scritiny of the world. The same will happen with China....Soviet Union lasted around 80 years I give the Chinese another 10 to 15..If they launch we launch...two big parking lots and I dare say we might do better than that as we are way ahead in terms of arsenal....

Huge freakin' 2,000,000 man army? Ok lotsa soldiers but what are they gonna do...swim over here...maybe load'em up an a couple "junks" and sneak'em in? I get it...just like in that early 70's sci fi B flick they are gonna tunnel their way in....They ain't gonna bother India or Pakistan cause those guys got nukes too and they're itching to use them...India would be glad to warm up Beijing and accidently toss one on Pakistan...same the other way...

My point is...we may not like the Chinese way of government but they aren't stupid...you don't stay in power for 30-40 years if you are stupid..Remember Idi Amin. Attacking us would be stupid and suicidal....

We have nothing to fear but fear itself...I remember a story about King Arthur and his Knights on a field of battle...they were standing facing their enemy as Arthur and whomever(?) were discussing peace..very tense...one of Arthurs knights saw an asp that was about to strike and he drew his sword to slay the offending little. The other knights misinterpreted his actions and a battle ensued...with dire results...

What happens when the Chinese succumb to the almighty dollar...who will you fear next....

Fearmongers....sheesh!

 

[RonG]

Before anybody runs off and votes for the Bushbaby, remember that his dad was an ambassador to China and famous for his blind spot on anything related to the communist menace. What to do, What to do? Probably get a good nights sleep and recognize alarmism when I see it. Then again, the fluoride in the water has made me sluggish and easily led.

My brother the legal eagle once pointed out to me that no one in the US had ever been convicted of Treason and he recommended this route to me in case of a military draft (I duly registered anyhow, in case any of those federal snoopers are reading this, can't be too sure). The trick is not to cooperate with any foreign powers. If you do, they hang your fanny for Espionage and you end up joining a big list (like the Rosenbergs and others). So the militia guys and anarchists can advocate the violent overthrow of the government, they just can't work with anybody else. Perhaps our "lil ol' country lawyer"* can elaborate further.

* Sam Ervin nostalgia moment in progress

Let's put the M in MAD/Let's all make a bomb - Heaven 17

 

[Ian1]

Re: Just one noid please...

Just how are the ominous Chinese going to destroy us?

I was watching on of the news networks last year and picked up these little facts.

Each year our defense spending is enough to maintian our military as it is now. No new singnificante programs are started. The Chinese, on the other hand, spend more each year so as to better their military. By the year 2010 the Chinese military will equal ours in every way. So for now we are fine, but always look to the future. The Chinese have stateed on several ocassions that they consider the U.S. to be easily conquered. And lets not forget it was the Chinese who perfected the "Caterpiller" drive for one of their ships.

Anyway, fuck all, I am not worried. I plan to move into my former Y2K, now turned "love" bunker, on the Canadian border before then. You all, of course, are welcome to join me and eventually help repopulate the world when it is all over.

 

[Never]

"I remember a story about King Arthur and his Knights on a field of battle...they were standing facing their enemy as Arthur and whomever(?) were discussing peace..very tense...one of Arthurs knights saw an asp that was about to strike and he drew his sword to slay the offending little. The other knights misinterpreted his actions and a battle ensued...with dire results..."

He was speaking with Mordred, his son by Morgana. I hate to split hair (well, I love to split hairs but it's a guilty pleasure) but that battle was fated to happen. If it wasn't the asp it would have been heart attack or one fighter going mad or the like.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Give me more King Arthur and the knights of the round table


Give me Excalibur!

 

[Merelan]

Give me the name of that sci-fi flick will you? I don't remember it.

Sorry Uncle Bill. I don't discuss politics here, so please don't think I am trying to belittle your thread. It is interesting to read and ponder on.

 

[Softly]

Cafefully crafted plan.

Hi Unclebill,

Prior to the end of the cold war with Russia, when Gorbachev was president, the US goverment opened another well planed chapter with Russia. It was a plan that has it origins in the time period of 1946, conceived by General Marshall.

When the USSR finally had a College educated leader, which Gorbachev was, the thinking was that "He" would be intelligent enough to finaly trust the US not to attack his nation.

The USSR Military chiefs of staffs and their
staffs, as well as elite military personnel, were allowed to
tour our bases, board our most advanced warships, and fly our aircrat.

The reason for this was to demonstrate to them that we had an overwhealming superiority in technology, hardware, and "trained" manpower. Yet, we had not used it, since the time period of 1940 on, to attack anyone that had not attacked someone first. And even then, we had not annexed any country.

Be aware that the US provided much of the hardware that Russia used to defend itself in WW 2. The Russian leadership was convienced that we were unbeatable and could be trusted. The rest is history.

What you are seeing in the tour of General Wang and his party is another attempt to obtain the same results.
Be certain in your mind that before this was allowed to happen, that all interested parties were allowed input, including the Military, Congress, President, Think tanks, and CIA, as well as National Security.

Is this a gamble? No, not in any way. If they are allow to see it, it has been a working system for twenty years. You, and they, will not know where we are today, in technology, for another twenty years.

Sleep well. Back in 1946, General Marshall. Harry Truman,and some Senators swore that never again would the "United States of America be UNPREPARED TO FIGHT AND WIN ANY WAR THRUST UPON US."

 

[*Eve*]

Hi Uncle Bill!!!!

 

[Laurel]

Hey Uncle Bill! Good to see you! I saw Harry Brown on the O'Reilly Factor the other night (the show I love to hate) and he's damn eloquent, soft-spoken, and earnest - the utter opposite of the other two. He made some damn good points as well... He won't win, but he's a cool dude!

 

[Unclebill]

Re: Cafefully crafted plan.

Sleep well. Back in 1946, General Marshall. Harry Truman,and some Senators swore that never again would the "United States of America be UNPREPARED TO FIGHT AND WIN ANY WAR THRUST UPON US."

This was many years before we had in the Oval office a man who loathes the military, who does not have any desire for America as a free and sovereign entity to survive and has given or sold millions of man-years of nuclear weapons research to the Communist Chinese government whose aim is to dominate the world. Note the intent of the institution the Chinese agents represent.

Communism (or any variant of collectivism) does not fare well when it exists along side even a marginally free nation because freedom and indidivual rights always attract and evoke the best from the forward looking, forward thinking industrious entrepeneur who sees a way to make himself wealthy by providing a product or service that other people want. Thus as long as America exists even with the gross abrogation of indidivual rights and freedom as it does today, it is still vastly better than collectivism and its attendant slavery.

It is the entrepeneural mentality that has made America the nation it is today. Politicians have not been the driving force behind any successful productive endeavor in this nation's history (although they lay claim to many such achievements). Name me one government program that has ever been administered efficiently, improved the standard of living and brought to market a product which was a significant success.

The point at the start of this post was not paranoia about China waging war against us. The point is that the thug presently infesting the White House and his vice perpetrator who wishes to succeed him in office have sold out the military superiority of America. They have in 8 years given the Communist Chinese the technology to develop the necessary weapons to attack us and the missile guidance technology to deliver the warheads to our shores.

They have systematically gutted the US military budget to the point that despite the lies of the SECDEF that our forces are ready. Talk to the military people on the front lines. They are living with budgets cuts so they are undermanned, undertrained and inadequately supported with fuel and repair parts. If Bush wins the election, he will inherit a mess worse than Carter left for Reagan.

How many people are so proud of Clinton's achievements there that they want his chief disciple to carry on with the sellout? Are you happy that now there is again a real threat potential that your kids may live or attend school in the near vicinity of a target of Chinese strategic nuclear weapons? Does that prospect make you sleep more comfortably at night? Or is it that you don't really care because we're not likely to live long enough to see it?

Hi Eve, sweetie! Nice running into you here.

Yes, Laurel. That's why I recommended you consider him as a serious alternative to Nader who is just another big brother advocate like Gore. I mean, really, do you believe that the internal combustion engine is the greatest threat to mankind? Gore does as does Ted Kazinski(sp?).

 

[Thumper]

Missed again!

Let me guess Bill, you were good at dodgeball in school...

......But could never hit the heater down the middle!

You didn't even bother to address any specific question...

Again, I ask, How in a definite thought out way can China be a threat to us? You mention living under the threat of Chinese nuclear missiles....excuse me, been there done that. Explain to me how this is a threat...do you actually think they would use them? Under what circumstances...they need us more than we need them. Using nukes would against us would be suicide...using them against anybody else (India, Pakistan, Taiwan) would make them an outlaw state reviled by the rest of the world...they know this. We heard all the same arguments with the Soviets...guess what we're still here...and we still will be...

It all centers on logistics...they may develop the best military ever seen to what end? What can they do to us? Nothing. There is a great pig puddle of water between them and us and we can watch every move they make...

Fear! You waste your time with it...but hey it's your time to waste.

It amazes me how you have this incredible knowledge of every motivation and thought in Clinton's head. How pray tell do you know all this? He does not want America as a free and sovereign entity? He told you this??

Millions of man-years of research? Can you delineate actual detailed examples or is this more reactionary hyperbole?

I think you listen to "The Truckin' Bozo" way too much...I threw my CB away because I got tired of hearing this crap. Your theories would go over well in a truckstop but in a forum of people with post secondary education they don't hold water...I know truckdrivers...I am one. On that note let me guess, you have a deep distrust of those with higher educations...since they more often are of the liberal mind set? Do you despise the "Intelligentsia"? Seems to me that the communists have always purged the educated citizens during their revolutions...because they are not easily lied to or controlled. Knowledge was the true downfall of communism. Not free markets. Dictators thrive on ignorance...control access to knowledge and you control opinion.

Now excuse me I gott go to a militia meeting...

 

[Weird Harold]

A government success story

Name me one government program that has ever been administered efficiently, improved the standard of living and brought to market a product which was a significant success.

Ever hear of Tang (tm)?

Tang started out as a NASA search for a light weight way to allow astronauts to have orange juice with their breakfast.

I can't say how efficiently the research that produced it was. I've never seen any numbers on what it cost or how difficult it was.

Tang did improve the standard of living in a way. When it came on the market, it improved the health of thousands of children because it was a cheaper way of getting the vitamin C (and other vitamins) into them without a fight than natural juices were.

I think Tang could also be considered a significant success, as it has been on the market for nearly forty years. It may not enjoy the popularity it once did, but it's popularity when first introduced, and the fact it's still around can't be called anthing other than "success"

You asked for one goverment program, and except for the lack of knowledge on the efficency of the development program, (which I consider a draw unless you can provide conclusive proof of inefficiency) the development of Tang fits all of your requirements.

If you relax the requirement that a goverment program fit all three of your requirements, There are thousands of other programs that would fit two of the three.

One thing that comes to mind, is the fact that we are communicating on this BB. The computers we are using, are a spin-off of the space program, and the Internet itself is an expansion of ARPANET. The fact that you can (releatively) safely use your credit card on a secure site owes much to encryption technology developed for the US government.

The very electricity that I'm using to post this message with is a result of one of Herbert Hoover's socialist programs begun in part to solve the economic problems of the Great Depression. A goverment project which meets your requirement of being administered efficiently, as Hoover Dam was completed ahead of schedule, and under budget.

Were it not for the "socialist" policies of an interfering government, we would not be having this discussion where and how we are.

 

[Thumper]

Slam F****** Dunk!

Harold...Hear Hear, well said!

I guess you can hit the long ball! LOL


nuff said...

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by Thumper
Again, I ask, How in a definite thought out way can China be a threat to us? You mention living under the threat of Chinese nuclear missiles....excuse me, been there done that. Explain to me how this is a threat...do you actually think they would use them?

Yes, I believe they will use them. I can't guess how soon they might act but they have already made it clear that they do not shy from the use of such weapons. Not many months ago there was the not so veiled threat to the effect, would America be willing to trade Los Angeles for Taiwan, i. e., should the US side with Taiwan against Communist China, we could expect a nuclear assault on LA or perhaps another metropolitan center.

And the express intent of the institution from which these visitors come is the defeat of a super-power like America. Perhaps I am being paranoid and they are simply referring to another of the myriad of superpower nations out there littering the planet. Yeah, you must be right; they couldn't have singled out America, only one of that multitude of superpowers, now could they? It must be one of those others to which they refer being like America. I got to admit, your keen reasoning convinced me on that one. How could I have missed it?

Originally posted by Thumper
Under what circumstances...they need us more than we need them.

Perhaps you are right in your presumption but you also disregard the likelihood that they do not share you supposition.

Originally posted by Thumper
Using nukes would against us would be suicide...

An irrational presumption. If they (the Communist Chinese government) loses 200-300 million people, what do they care; the price of progress, a few less to feed. As an example of their concern for the welfare of their populace, hark back to the massacre in Tienaman (sp?) Square. Or more recently in the news, the woman whose fetus was forcible aborted by government officials and killed when it was found to have survived the abortion attempt. Her crime, failing to abide by the 'one child per family' law.

Originally posted by Thumper
using them against anybody else (India, Pakistan, Taiwan) would make them an outlaw state reviled by the rest of the world...they know this.

You're making the irrational presumption that they care what anyone thinks, especially when they have the weaponry to subjugate any such disapproval. The fundamental communist mentality is might makes right. I expect it less likely that they would use them against Taiwan. They want the wealth there. There's far less expectation that they could actually invade and occupy the US to seize any wealth here, thus they have less to lose by nuking (or threatening) America.

Originally posted by Thumper
We heard all the same arguments with the Soviets...guess what we're still here...and we still will be...

The Soviet Union existed an entire span of about 70 years; the Chinese have a 3,000-year history and a severely different mentality.

Originally posted by Thumper
It amazes me how you have this incredible knowledge of every motivation and thought in Clinton's head. How pray tell do you know all this? He does not want America as a free and sovereign entity? He told you this??

Not in so many words. It seems reasonable and rational to be able to glean some understanding of a man's character, beliefs and motivations by observing and analyzing his words and his actions. Clinton stated in writing when violating existing laws to dodge the draft that he loathed the military. This has never been recanted or retracted (and won't I bet).

A strong, well-equipped, well-trained military is essential as the means of protecting the sovereignty of a nation. Beyond that it has no legitimate purpose.

Over his tenure in office, the ONLY government agency cut in resources has been the military. In addition, Clinton has systematically used the military as part of the public distraction of attention from his own criminal shortcomings (bombing innocent people in the Sudan, invading Kosovo) and has in other cases put military personnel in harms way on missions for which the military is NOT suited, i. e., "meals on wheels" in Haiti, "peacekeepers" in Bosnia, etc. While doing these things, he has made American technology available to the Communist Chinese government in exchange for election campaign funds (missile guidance technology and nuclear warhead design specifically).

Simple deductive reasoning leads me to the conclusion that he isn't particularly concerned with America's sovereignty. In an appearance on MTV's "Enough is Enough", he expressed admiration for the Asian people (who primarily live under totalitarian authoritarian rule). What's to admire about that? He also expressed some interesting thoughts on individual rights, i. e., that government is the source of your rights in direct contrast to the thoughts expressed in the Declaration of Independence. He also stated "When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it". Explain to me how someone with his intellect and education, who parses words so carefully that he quibbles over "What the meaning of is is" makes such statements without understanding the meaning and implication thereof! He is arrogant enough to expect this to get by people without them realizing the truth he's revealing. This is the same whining sniveling bastard whose arrogance cries that losing his license to practice law is too severe a penalty for committing a felony (perjury) as an officer of the court.

Originally posted by Thumper
Millions of man-years of research? Can you delineate actual detailed examples or is this more reactionary hyperbole?

This is from a news report during the period of the "missing disks" at Los Alamos. I believe the figure stated was that these disks contained the results of 50-milion man-years of scientific research and development. I must admit I don't have a way of validating the figure but I'm sure the government and the press would not lie to us, now would they? Perhaps I am remiss in quoting a news report.

Originally posted by Thumper
Do you despise the "Intelligentsia"?

No; only the criminal.

Originally posted by Thumper
Seems to me that the communists have always purged the educated citizens during their revolutions...because they are not easily lied to or controlled. Knowledge was the true downfall of communism. Not free markets.

Knowledge is an integral component of the "free market". That free market consists of ideas as well as products. Without the ideas, you seldom get the products.

Originally posted by Thumper
Dictators thrive on ignorance...control access to knowledge and you control opinion.

Precisely, which is why the only ISP's in China are operated by the government!

Originally posted by Thumper
Now excuse me I gott go to a militia meeting...

Enjoy the meeting.

Originally posted by Weird Harold
Ever hear of Tang (tm)?

Also, don't forget Teflon, integrated circuits, etc., all by-products of the space program. And what has happened to the Space Program? It's being downgraded and much of it essentially turned over to private enterprise. The only program I can recall with a reasonable success.

The ones that are demonstrating themselves to be total and abject failures are persisting and growing in funding every year wasting an ever greater percentage of the productive capacity of our economy, Social Welfare being the worst of the lot. Social welfare existed before the government got into the process. It was administered by churches, synagogues, local and national charities and was a marvel of efficiency. Help was provided to people who needed it when they needed it. There were no generations of welfare families, there were far fewer single parent homes and people who received such help never developed the attitude that it was their due. Privately administered programs are efficient to the tune of about 80-95% of the funds contributed VOLUNTARILY gets to the beneficiaries with the remainder being expenses and overhead for the program. On the other hand, government administered programs consume about 78-80% of the funds STOLEN from unwilling taxpayers while about 22-20% gets to the "beneficiaries" who somehow are "entitled" (as stated in the laws) to ownership of property they have not earned.

And this is about half the Federal budget! Government welfare is NOT designed to help people past a crisis as is private welfare; it is designed to recruit people and keep them there once they are enrolled. That's why the rules are so stringent and specifically crafted. Those who wish and try to become self-sufficient become so entangled in bureaucratic rules and red tape that many don't succeed. There are some who succeed but they would very probably have succeeded on their own and probably in less time. As to its stated purpose, the so-called "War on Poverty", that is a sham today if not forever. There exist in America today approx. the same percentage in poverty as in the 1960's when this "Great Society" program was embraced. Having squandered approximately $5,000,000,000,000.00 we have moved nowhere! What could that money have achieved in the hands of the rightful owners, i. e., the people who earned it?

And poverty is a very relative term. Those in poverty in America live in comparative luxury to most of the world's population.

Originally posted by Weird Harold
If you relax the requirement that a goverment program fit all three of your requirements, there are thousands of other programs that would fit two of the three.

I stated only ONE purpose for a legitimate government! I can't improve upon the following quote:

"There is no tyranny worse than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."
-- Robert Heinlein

Originally posted by Weird Harold
One thing that comes to mind, is the fact that we are communicating on this BB. The computers we are using, are a spin-off of the space program, and the Internet itself is an expansion of ARPANET. The fact that you can (releatively) safely use your credit card on a secure site owes much to encryption technology developed for the US government.

Ever hear of banks? They've been using encryption technology as long as there have been ATM's. They have also been using it for years in electronic transactions between banks worldwide. While the encryption technology they use may have been a spin-off from government (military and intelligence) development, it is not necessarily the case. Ever hear of PGP? What happened to the guy who designed that?

As to encryption developed for the military and intelligence services, I find that a legitimate pursuit of government in its role of protecting the populace. Having secure communications for military and intelligence pursuits is imperative for security. The fact that it is also a benefit to private enterprise is a good thing. Private enterprise would have developed the technology on its own as the need emerged anyway so the fact that government needs led the way is more coincidental than laudatory.

Originally posted by Weird Harold
The very electricity that I'm using to post this message with is a result of one of Herbert Hoover's socialist programs begun in part to solve the economic problems of the Great Depression.

Do some deeper research and you'll find Roosevelt's programs did more to prolong the Great Depression than to solve the problems which caused it. World War II was his way out!

Originally posted by Weird Harold
Were it not for the "socialist" policies of an interfering government, we would not be having this discussion where and how we are.

I guess I don't share you skeptical view of the ability of men in a free society to produce the products and services to supply a need when it becomes economically feasible. The difference is that free men don't have the authority to confiscate the property of others to pay for their wishes and whims as do politicians.

 

[Thumper]

1000 Bombs and whatta ya get?

So you think our entire nuclear arsenal would kill only 200-300 million chinese? Remember what a small single stage device did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Think about it.1000 multi MEGA-ton(40 to 50M) devices would kill far more than the figure you mentioned...and in the process render the whole of China uninhabitable....as well as the surrounding regions...NO MORE CHINA...they know this. You assume we would just throw our hands up and surrender if they nuked LA?
Scenario...we side with Taiwan, they nuke LA and maybe get lucky enough to hit a couple other cities...and we turn them into a moonscape with a few hundred warheads...whose worse off? Few less mouths to feed for them...but no way to feed them at all..."Watchout where the nukies go and don't you eat the rice that glows!"

A nuclear sub parked off the coast could strike Beijing in a matter of mere minutes....just enough time for the leaders to say it...then do it. If it is a cruise missile they might not even know it's coming.


Russia under the communists lasted 70 years as you say...China has been under communist dictatorial rule for around 50 years....Stalin had nukes, why didn't he use'em?

 

[MunchinMark]

It doesn't really matter what hardware the Chinese get, any conflict between such large nations as China and the USA would be disasterous (think Vietnam and up). So surely the best way to prevent such a catastrophy would be to involve China more centraly in world politics, it is after all a world power with a huge population, many resources and a sphere of influence that includes several trouble spots. Let's involve them in decision making and international policing. In other words let's get China on our side.

Diplomacy, the way to a future with more people in it.

 

[Flagg]

Well well this has been a fascinating (and exhausting) thread. A lot of what has been said has epitomised my dislike for US Society but some comments have again given me faith in the world's most powerful country.

The Chinese are a bit of an enigma to our western-cultivated minds. Some view them as a barbaric, irresponsible, cruel nation that seeks to do nothing but conquer the world and enforce misery on everyone. It musn't be forgotten though that they actually created the notion of civilisation. Thousands of years ago the chinese were encouraging education through reading and writing. They even had toilets with flushes! They were also a country that did not concern themsleves with the rest of the world. "China" means "centre of the earth". All else outside their boundaries was deemed as unnecessary and undesirable. This was because they were content with what they had - why go elsewhere when everything you need is right here. Shame that the English, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch didn't feel the same.

On a side note, if the chinese had wanted to explore outside their own territory there would have been nothing stopping them. They had the technology to sail the seas and colonise pretty much anywhere in the world long before we even figured out that the world was round. The world would be a pretty different place if they had done.


Of course there are a lot of undesirable aspects to Chinese society. It is very much state controlled. It is true that the government controls the ISPs and therefore the content of what can or cannot be viewed on the internet. It is true that during the Cultural Revolution, there were many crimes committed against humanity and freedom. It is true that the military killed innocent civilians during a peaceful protest in Tiennemen Square.

China is now in a positon where it is coming to realise that there is a lot going on outside their own country, a lot of which is not particularily favourable. Here is a country with thousands of years of history and culture witnessing a world that is increasingly becoming homogenised both socially and culturally. They are business minded and therefore want to be play a large part in the world economy but they do not want to see their country fall victim to cultural imperialism as has happened to many countries innocently raising their heads above the parrapets of the world ecenomy. I for one don't blame them. Sure you may be wary of such an immense country and the increasing economic and military power it holds. But I'm sure they are wary of you also.

China is ceasing to be an isolated state. It wants in on the action and we should welcome them with open arms. Don't be scared because they may overtake you. You can't be on top forever.

For you lovers of the "free market" and "capitalism" surely you must understand that the essence of a thriving market is competition.

Uncle Bill - You obviously have a lot of contempt for communism. I'd be interested to know what exactly it is that threatens you about it. You refer to China as "communist China" incessantly as if you were some fanatic general waging a war against some form of parasite. The world and ideals you promote worry me. You are insistent that your country's government should pile all its resources into the military, yet you deem "peacekeeping" activies to be a waste of time. You have a hatred for social programs and presumably a taxation system. You stated that all the money that has been spent on welfare should have benefited those who earned it. What about people who were unable to earn or those that were being exploited by those who earnt it? What happens to them? Being an entrepeneur is a lot more than simply having the get up and go to make something happen. It is a lot more than simply weilding the power of knowledge. The most vital tool to an entrepeneur is his workforce. A workforce that has to carry out menial tasks for menial wages in order for the entrepeneur's "dream product" to become a reality. The idea that entrepeneurship is what makes America is both ridiculous and naive. It is the workers that keep the cogs running, that keep your streets clean, that wash your cars, bake your bread and brew your beer. But very little reward do they get. Hell, why should they get any sympathy or government aid when their children are sick. No its all their fault for not being entrepeneurs and setting up their own business and making their own fortune!

I'm a pacifist socialist and proud of it. Some of the comments on this BB make me even more so.

 

[SimplySouthern]

A lot of what has been said has epitomised my dislike for US Society

That and the fact that he doesn't like fat people...and aren't all Americans big ol' fatties?

Or was that just me you were referring to Flagg?

 

[Flagg]

Oh you bitch! And you promised me you were sticking to that Weight Watchers program! I'll have to learn never to trust a lawyer with a passion for whipped cream (or was that a passion for whips and cream), especially an american one!

 

[Unclebill]

I'm a pacifist socialist and proud of it. Some of the comments on this BB make me even more so.

I never ceased to be amazed that people proudly embrace a philosophy that has wrought such havoc on humankind in the history of the world. To proudly declare yourself a socialist makes me wonder if you truly understand (or are even seriously aware of) the philosophy on which it is based.

Simplistically, it accepts the tenets that murder and slavery are acceptable societal organizations and the individual has no right to his life nor any right to the product of his individual efforts. That each man merely exists at and for the pleasure of society but has no right to exist for his own pleasure or betterment.

How could you possibly be proud to embrace such a vile, vicious and evil concept? Its pursuit has been responsible for the slaughter of millions and for the destruction of countless hopes and dreams. In every situation in which it has been instituted, it has led invariably to a decline in productivity and standard of living. It destroys people's initiative and motivation. For the most part, men do not respond nearly so well to punishment as they do to reward. Any variant of collectivism punishes those who are the most productive and the greatest achievers, those whose efforts advance man's state of well being. It rewards those who are least efficient, creative and productive and the result is stagnation of progress.

For examples, look at the Soviet Union, Castro's Cuba, Communist China, or any Iron Curtain nation or even today's Europe. Collectivism is the common thread they share.

Why are none the economic success of the United States? The difference is individual freedom. The vestiges that remain in the US propel the technical and economic advances here but our politicians are marching toward the collectivist dream and if they succeed, the United States of America will become another second rate socialist failure.

In today's world, where does anyone with the means turn when they seek the best technology, the best medical care, etc. How many turn to a communist/socialist country and how many come the the US? Where did Communist China turn to get its military weaponry upgraded?

I do not want my children or grandchildren to live in slavery and that is the reason that I am so vocal against the intellectual dishonesty that purports collectivism to be this wonderful Nirvana. Collectivism is the embodiment of Hell on earth.

If you don't think so, look at the reality. How many people in collectivist countries attempt to escape to the US? How many people in the US seek escape to a collectivist country? How many of those countries had walls to prevent people from escaping? How many had walls to keep out those trying to break into a communist/socialist country?

For example, how many people were shot escaping INTO East Germany?

Even Jane Fonda, while praising the majesty of Communism, didn't have the courage of her convictions (if she had any). She stayed an American citizen while verbally despising all America stood for. She talked a big game but didn't have the guts to go live in a communist country, renounce her American citizenship, and seek citizenship there. She was the typical hypocrite who thinks communism is a good thing for everybody else but not for herself. She's much like so many of the assholes in government throughout the US who want all these laws for the peasants yet they think somehow they should be exempt!

So when you proclaim your pride in being a socialist, it really calls into question in my mind your knowledge of the reality or the quality of your character.

 

[Flagg]

???

Oh so you live in a euphoric nirvana-esque state do you. Well they do say ignorance is bliss.

You really are a silly little man. You obviously have no fundemental understanding of international affairs. You have no grasp of how Europe operates both politically and socially. All you do is spout out ridiculously inaccurate propaganda that you have probably been fed all your life. The worst part is that you talk as if you were some authority or bright spark when you are evidently neither.

Firstly, if you want anyone to take you seriously in an ideological debate you need to be able to distinguish between various philosophies. I notice you refer to socialism/communism as if the two were undistinguishable. If I were to say to you that socialism, stalinism, leninism and maoism all are completely different social doctrines would you understand?


As for your examples of disastruous social experiments - well all I can say is that such naivete must be rare. Are you really single-minded enough to think that Cuba, Russia, China and Eastern Europe are sole examples of modern socialism? They, my friend, are exampes of dictatorship and totalitarianism. If you want examples of modern socialism in practice, look at Germany, France and the UK (which is the fourth largest ecenomy in the world by the way) for a start.

Its got absolutely nothing to do with everyone needing to be the same, or no-one getting wealthy. And what an earth are you talking about punishment for? What century do you live in?

Socialism today simply supports the idea of a welfare state, a taxation system that attempts to redress some forms of inequality and an effective economy. Socialism embraces business, recognises profit-drive and is an advocator of free-speech.

Socialism in modern practice is often referred to as social democracy - a doctrine that both Al Gore and Tony Blair subscribe to. Another term for it is The Third Way which basically refers to an ideology embracing the business-drive of the right with the social welfare-drive of the left. Simple.

I do hope I have been able to educate you in this short post. You will meet nothing but embarrasment and mockery if you attempt to debate matters that you have little understanding of.

Me saying that I am a socialist does not mean that I wish for a political system analogous with those of the Cubans, Russians or Chinese, for those systems are not socialist - they are corruptions of communism. Very different kettle of fish really.

 

[Expertise]

Although I am not a fan of socialism or collectivism, his assertion that the UK, Germany etc. is for the most part accurate. Socialism although a tenet of most of the Eastern Bloc countries, Maoism, Stalinism etc. was never truly practiced by them. It was payed lip service and that was about it. Yet they called it socialism which has forever tarred it.

Don't get me wrong I am not a proponent of socialism. But not all the things that socialist philosophy and thinking has brought about are evil. Look at public health care in Canada, Employment Insurance etc. I detest the socialist idea of a "welfare state" because they tend to bastardize it into rich bad, poor good, mediocrity best. At the same time, it is not uniformly bad or evil.

Sorry for my lack of coherence but I have yet to have my minimum daily requirement of caffeine.

BTW. I think "Hanoi Jane" is a fucking despicable peice of pond scum for the actions you described.

 

[Thumper]

Hey Bill

The United States is an economic success for a privileged few.....not me...I live paycheck to paycheck, have no medical insurance and I work two jobs while my wife works full time also...

Meanwhile the average income for the mid to upper level management types has increased 535% since 1990...mine has gone up about 10%....The economy is going great productivity is up, efficiency is up, profits are skyrocketing, so where does all the extra money go? Oh yeah..trickle down...it trickles down just about as far as the ceos pockets....

I have no desire to be wealthy....I would not be wealthy for very long anyway...too many people I know could use some help....

So keep worshiping the rich there Bill...they could not care less about you...

BTW...just a word for the religious right, since they usually ally themselves with the conservative parties..Jesus would have been a socialist...just listen to his words...Wealth is a blessing and it is his command that all blessings are to be shared... a little food for thought here, since so many think welfare rewards those who have more children why is it that less than 1 percent of recipients have more than 2 kids...welfare fraud? try just 0.4 percent....tax evasion(intentional or accidental) 36%...so who is cheating the system more...

Ya can't take it with you so why all the greed? Is your sole measure of worth tied to your account balances and portfolio performance...? This is why I have such a poor attitude about humanity...We could feed the world if we wanted...ah but where is the profit? A child in a poor country must live with a disfiguring condition that over here is treated automatically at birth(cleft palate)...why? Oh yeah....she can't pay for it! Since when is medicine a finite resource to be hoarded? If you have the ability to relieve someone's suffering and you don't then what does that make you...

*climbs off soapbox*

 

[Flagg]

Thumper you have just made my day - at last someone with sense. You climb on to that soap box anytime you like ya hear?!

[Edited by Flagg on 09-27-2000 at 08:02 AM]