Non native speakers and AI

[BorderKalley]

I know, I know this is the 100th post you have seen this week about this subject, but I'm curious (<that word got fixed by Grammarly) what you think of this subject.

I, personally, am not a native English speaker. I think my English is very good, but I make spelling and grammar errors like everyone else, and definitely more than a native speaker. The normal Word/Google Doc spelling and grammar checks are not good enough for me. And indeed, my first story had some cringeworthy errors. Someone kindly suggested that I use Grammarly, and it improved my writing dramatically. Even writing this paragraph it corrected spelling and suggested punctuation marks.

I sometimes take the advice of the machine, and sometimes I decline it. For example, Grammarly thinks the use of the words 'really' and 'just' to be an absolute atrocity, and it doesn't care it's a part of a dialog and people actually talk like that (at least that is what I think based on Hollywood, my lifelong English teacher, haha).

Moreover, my personal writing style is that of a general outline, followed by a flow of uninterrupted writing. No editing, and no backspacing as much as possible. As you can imagine, this results in a huge amount of errors. So I had the brilliant idea of just shoving the whole story into Grok (because it's the only one that can handle smut) and asked it to grammar and spell check my first draft. It quickly takes out 80-90% of the errors found by Grammarly. However, and I cannot stress this enough, all the words are mine.

This is my process, the one I found to be the most enjoyable, time-effective, and that produces the best results. I don't believe I do anything wrong (maybe besides hindering my English education, which, again, I'm pleased with). The use of these tools made me feel more "artistically liberated". knowing that I can write with the confidence that the words I mean will be the ones appearing on the page after editing.

I understand there needs to be safeguards preventing the site from being flooded by completely AI-generated content. For testing, I checked my 2 stories in a free AI-generated detector. The first work was completely AI-assist free, and the second was my latest story, using the process outlined above. The first story got 7% AI-generated, and the second got 5%.

Currently, I have a work stuck in pending for more than a week. I hope it's because of the contest and not AI bot rejection.

What do you think? What is fair use of these tools? Did I cross the line? Is an imperfect AI detector a necessary evil? Will non-native speakers be disproportionately affected?

Would love to hear your thoughts

 

[AwkwardMD]

Aaaaand drink

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I know, I know this is the 100th post you have seen this week about this subject, but I'm curious (<that word got fixed by Grammarly) what you think of this subject.

I, personally, am not a native English speaker. I think my English is very good, but I make spelling and grammar errors like everyone else, and definitely more than a native speaker. The normal Word/Google Doc spelling and grammar checks are not good enough for me. And indeed, my first story had some cringeworthy errors. Someone kindly suggested that I use Grammarly, and it improved my writing dramatically. Even writing this paragraph it corrected spelling and suggested punctuation marks.

I sometimes take the advice of the machine, and sometimes I decline it. For example, Grammarly thinks the use of the words 'really' and 'just' to be an absolute atrocity, and it doesn't care it's a part of a dialog and people actually talk like that (at least that is what I think based on Hollywood, my lifelong English teacher, haha).

Moreover, my personal writing style is that of a general outline, followed by a flow of uninterrupted writing. No editing, and no backspacing as much as possible. As you can imagine, this results in a huge amount of errors. So I had the brilliant idea of just shoving the whole story into Grok (because it's the only one that can handle smut) and asked it to grammar and spell check my first draft. It quickly takes out 80-90% of the errors found by Grammarly. However, and I cannot stress this enough, all the words are mine.

This is my process, the one I found to be the most enjoyable, time-effective, and that produces the best results. I don't believe I do anything wrong (maybe besides hindering my English education, which, again, I'm pleased with). The use of these tools made me feel more "artistically liberated". knowing that I can write with the confidence that the words I mean will be the ones appearing on the page after editing.

I understand there needs to be safeguards preventing the site from being flooded by completely AI-generated content. For testing, I checked my 2 stories in a free AI-generated detector. The first work was completely AI-assist free, and the second was my latest story, using the process outlined above. The first story got 7% AI-generated, and the second got 5%.

Currently, I have a work stuck in pending for more than a week. I hope it's because of the contest and not AI bot rejection.

What do you think? What is fair use of these tools? Did I cross the line? Is an imperfect AI detector a necessary evil? Will non-native speakers be disproportionately affected?

Would love to hear your thoughts

Even though one of the very popular and prolific authors here said he uses AI for editing purposes, I don't think doing it is a good idea. It's not a defensible position, in my opinion.
Using Grammarly for spelling, grammar, and punctuation is fine, but at least do the editing yourself. That's an integral part of the writing process. I am also not a native speaker, but I never had a problem with AI rejection. Maybe being a non-native speaker increases the chances of being flagged for AI, maybe it doesn't. There isn't enough data to be sure.

 

[Omenainen]

I’m not a native and for better or worse, I don’t use any tools to aid my writing beyond the spell check that comes with my writing software. No grammarly, definitely no AI. I know many natives who use grammarly, so maybe I’m just cockier than most, dunno.

I have little doubt some tools could produce craftier prose than me, but so what? I can do what I can do and I don’t see why I should be able to do more than I can do. This is my process and I’m sticking to it

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Aaaaand drink

What is that about ... my liver ... ????

 

[Bamagan]

I know, I know this is the 100th post you have seen this week about this subject, but I'm curious (<that word got fixed by Grammarly) what you think of this subject.

I, personally, am not a native English speaker. I think my English is very good, but I make spelling and grammar errors like everyone else, and definitely more than a native speaker. The normal Word/Google Doc spelling and grammar checks are not good enough for me. And indeed, my first story had some cringeworthy errors. Someone kindly suggested that I use Grammarly, and it improved my writing dramatically. Even writing this paragraph it corrected spelling and suggested punctuation marks.

I sometimes take the advice of the machine, and sometimes I decline it. For example, Grammarly thinks the use of the words 'really' and 'just' to be an absolute atrocity, and it doesn't care it's a part of a dialog and people actually talk like that (at least that is what I think based on Hollywood, my lifelong English teacher, haha).

Moreover, my personal writing style is that of a general outline, followed by a flow of uninterrupted writing. No editing, and no backspacing as much as possible. As you can imagine, this results in a huge amount of errors. So I had the brilliant idea of just shoving the whole story into Grok (because it's the only one that can handle smut) and asked it to grammar and spell check my first draft. It quickly takes out 80-90% of the errors found by Grammarly. However, and I cannot stress this enough, all the words are mine.

This is my process, the one I found to be the most enjoyable, time-effective, and that produces the best results. I don't believe I do anything wrong (maybe besides hindering my English education, which, again, I'm pleased with). The use of these tools made me feel more "artistically liberated". knowing that I can write with the confidence that the words I mean will be the ones appearing on the page after editing.

I understand there needs to be safeguards preventing the site from being flooded by completely AI-generated content. For testing, I checked my 2 stories in a free AI-generated detector. The first work was completely AI-assist free, and the second was my latest story, using the process outlined above. The first story got 7% AI-generated, and the second got 5%.

Currently, I have a work stuck in pending for more than a week. I hope it's because of the contest and not AI bot rejection.

What do you think? What is fair use of these tools? Did I cross the line? Is an imperfect AI detector a necessary evil? Will non-native speakers be disproportionately affected?

Would love to hear your thoughts

Non-native speakers do seem to be disproportionately affected, which is unfortunate. Your use of the LLM, however, is definitely beyond what the site allows, and it's fairly likely that your story has been correctly flagged as such, assuming that's how you created it.
You can peruse the forum for literally dozens of other threads on this topic if you want to learn why your 'process' is not well-tolerated here. I will be surprised if you do, though, because most people who think that AI is a useful short-cut around learning how to write well have thereby proven themselves unwilling to learn.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Moreover, my personal writing style is that of a general outline, followed by a flow of uninterrupted writing. No editing, and no backspacing as much as possible. As you can imagine, this results in a huge amount of errors. So I had the brilliant idea of just shoving the whole story into Grok (because it's the only one that can handle smut) and asked it to grammar and spell check my first draft. It quickly takes out 80-90% of the errors found by Grammarly. However, and I cannot stress this enough, all the words are mine.

I don't understand how it fixes grammatical errors without providing the correct words to use. What does that look like?

(Also, I would be unwilling to let my stories be edited by any entity that posts antisemitic conspiracy theories, whether silicon- or meat-based.)

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

However, and I cannot stress this enough, all the words are mine.


Would love to hear your thoughts

That's fine as long as they're spelled correctly and readable grammar is in play.

There are world builders here who literally make up words to describe places and characters, human or not. They use words that do not exist in English or other languages. But they still adhere to best practices of storytelling and the site's rules.

 

[FrancesScott]

(Also, I would be unwilling to let my stories be edited by any entity that posts antisemitic conspiracy theories, whether silicon- or meat-based.)

Grok is a poor choice unless you want your sweet lesbian romance to suddenly veer into white replacement ‘theory,’ or to include paeans to Hitler.

When I first started writing the technical term for my output was ‘utter garbage.’ It took me literally years to improve to even my current lowly level of competence. But… that’s what it’s like. Acquiring any worthwhile skill takes time and effort. The instant gratification path offered by AI doesn’t lead to better stories, just flat, technically proficient dross, signifying nothing [thanks Will!]

I appreciate that if you are not a native English speaker then trying to write in English is extra difficult. But if that’s your goal, work on it. There are plenty of gifted writers here who have mastered the skill of writing in a different language. An attempted short-cut leads you to where the OP has ended up.

 

[Writer61]

I applaud those who want to express themselves in another language, and I also understand this site's attitude to AI. It is a pity that the latter can limit the former.

What I suggest is writing in English, however bad, using Grammarly/similar to help with punctuation, but don't accept changes in wording (or take a few but not all). A header stating that English is not your mother tongue might help.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Do meat based theories involve chickens and roads?

 

[Britva415]

Currently, I have a work stuck in pending for more than a week. I hope it's because of the contest and not AI bot rejection.

A rejection is unequivocal and transparent. Your story has not been rejected - if it had been, you would know it, and you would know the reason. A week or three is not unusual at all for Pending times lately. Especially when a contest is on.

 

[FrancesScott]

A rejection is unequivocal and transparent. Your story has not been rejected - if it had been, you would know it. A week or three is not unusual at all for Pending times lately.

Again, YMMV, but I had an essay approved within two hours yesterday. Publishing tomorrow, or late tonight.

And it’s only my eleventh and so it’s not like I have a lengthy track record.

 

[Britva415]

Again, YMMV, but I had an essay approved within two hours yesterday. Publishing tomorrow, or late tonight.

And it’s only my eleventh and so it’s not like I have a lengthy track record.

Well, that isn't unusual either. It just isn't what this person is experiencing.

 

[BorderKalley]

I don't understand how it fixes grammatical errors without providing the correct words to use. What does that look like?

(Also, I would be unwilling to let my stories be edited by any entity that posts antisemitic conspiracy theories, whether silicon- or meat-based.)

It does provide the correct words to use.

Like, using present tense after did or didn't.
Like, adding s at the and of a verb (we don't have "it" in my language. All is female or male)
Like, switching between was and were.

And then there is the usual spell check, as in writing the actual correct spelling of the word.

Again, the intent is mine.

 

[BorderKalley]

A rejection is unequivocal and transparent. Your story has not been rejected - if it had been, you would know it, and you would know the reason. A week or three is not unusual at all for Pending times lately. Especially when a contest is on.

Yeh I know it wasn't rejected. But I saw that for some people the was a long wait in the pending followed by rejection based on AI. As I said, I hope it's because of the contest.

 

[Writer61]

Yeh I know it wasn't rejected. But I saw that for some people the was a long wait in the pending followed by rejection based on AI. As I said, I hope it's because of the contest.

We don't know exactly what the process is. Most likely, there is an automated review with human follow-up for borderline cases. A long delay probably means your story is in a queue for checking.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I don't know... Whenever people start excusing themselves about using AI because English is not their native language, I always think about Fernando Pessoa, the poet. Yes, his native language is Portuguese, but he was educated in English, translated many works to both English and French, and his final piece of writing was in English.

I never felt compelled to use AI for my writing because of a language barrier though. I didn't use English as an everyday language until I started peeking into the English places online back in late 2010, and I didn't write my first story in English until two years later, I think? All in all it was a matter of just practicing the language, and fucking things up... a lot of fucking things up, yeah... Especially after learning that English tends to have its quirks according to the location, which is more intense than Spanish because at least in Spanish the writing is constant, but then American English just doesn't use the "ou" combo in words like "favorite," unlike in British or Canadian English where it becomes "favourite." That same word, "favorito," is the same in any Spanish-speaking country because all rules are the same for all locations. Don't even get me started on how I always confuse "gray" and "grey."

I never needed Grammarly then, I don't need it now. If my English is weird in my stories, well, that's because it takes place in a country that has that weird English. It's on purpose because I'm really petty, and using the word "college" as synonym for "university" is a big pet peeve I have with American English, so I always refuse to use it.

I suggest you do not use those tools though. They may harm the development of your voice.

 

[ronde]

There were stories published on Literotica by writers who's native language was not English, and they were written and published in a time when AI was just a spark in some programmer's brain. The spell and grammar checker in most word processing software will tell you how to correct spelling errors and to some extent grammar errors.

I don't understand the current fascination with AI held by seemingly young authors. To me, using AI to edit anything is like putting a Bandaid on a bullet wound. It might make you think you've done something good, but it doesn't fix the real problem. English is likely the most difficult language to speak and write correctly because it's such a muddy mix of words and syntax distilled from from several different cultures over a very long time, but by relying on software is just making things worse. It's akin to teaching first grader's how to use a calculator instead of teaching them how to add and subtract. They can get the right answer, but don't have a clue about why it's the right answer.

 

[FrancesScott]

Bandaid on a bullet wound

If you live like that, you live with ghosts.

 

[FrancesScott]

I don't know... Whenever people start excusing themselves about using AI because English is not their native language, I always think about Fernando Pessoa, the poet. Yes, his native language is Portuguese, but he was educated in English, translated many works to both English and French, and his final piece of writing was in English.

I never felt compelled to use AI for my writing because of a language barrier though. I didn't use English as an everyday language until I started peeking into the English places online back in late 2010, and I didn't write my first story in English until two years later, I think? All in all it was a matter of just practicing the language, and fucking things up... a lot of fucking things up, yeah... Especially after learning that English tends to have its quirks according to the location, which is more intense than Spanish because at least in Spanish the writing is constant, but then American English just doesn't use the "ou" combo in words like "favorite," unlike in British or Canadian English where it becomes "favourite." That same word, "favorito," is the same in any Spanish-speaking country because all rules are the same for all locations. Don't even get me started on how I always confuse "gray" and "grey."

I never needed Grammarly then, I don't need it now. If my English is weird in my stories, well, that's because it takes place in a country that has that weird English. It's on purpose because I'm really petty, and using the word "college" as synonym for "university" is a big pet peeve I have with American English, so I always refuse to use it.

I suggest you do not use those tools though. They may harm the development of your voice.

I think this is an important post. I can’t imagine how difficult it might be to write in, say, German. But if I really wanted to do that, I’d try to make myself proficient in German first.

I’ve sometimes used Google Translate (which is presumably AI powered nowadays - as everything is, including your refrigerator) to include single lines in a foreign language as part of an English story. Then I also try to get a native speaker to check it for me (not always possible).

But even my limited experience in micro-translation leads me to believe that what you get out of it can be totally mangled and also lose your original intent.

 

[filthytrancendence]

Will non-native speakers be disproportionately affected?

Maybe. But also kinda no?

I suspect a not insubstantial portion of non-native speakers overestimate the writing skill of many native speakers. I suspect this phenomenon is not limited to English. The vast majority of native English speakers can't write worth a damn. If you've ever had a corporate job, you'll need no convincing of this. It's still shocking to me after decades how appallingly bad a shockingly large number of mostly articulate people are at writing emails.

Reading between the lines a bit, it sounds like you don't like the editing process much and are pleased to have found a way to shortcut that. I guess I can understand that thought process, but from what I can see your English is perfectly fine and I have my doubts that editing is any more irritating for you than it is for the rest of us.

But, like it or not it is part of the process, and surrendering the process to an LLM is not a good idea. People can and will come up with every excuse under the sun to justify using AI in writing. There's a strong... motivation for employing motivated reasoning in this case, particularly since it is banned by the site. At the end of the day, some parts of the creative process suck, but they're still important parts of the process.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I don't understand the current fascination with AI held by seemingly young authors. To me, using AI to edit anything is like putting a Bandaid on a bullet wound. It might make you think you've done something good, but it doesn't fix the real problem.

Because it's the path of least resistance. It's the easiest way to write. Our brains are wired to always take the easiest path. It's how we evolved. AI is a shortcut.

And just like any other shortcut, it cripples your ability to develop a skill. You can't learn a skill by taking shortcuts. There are people all over who are using AI as an aid to their creativity, but what they don't realize is that creativity is the skill to come up with solutions to a problem. Even legitimate uses of AI may end up as a crutch, and if you take the AI multiplier out of the equation for them, it's going to result into a zero output because they became reliant on it.

I know there are actual legitimate uses for AI, but skill development is not one of them. Writing is one of such skills, whether it is creative writing or not.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Because it's the path of least resistance. It's the easiest way to write. Our brains are wired to always take the easiest path. It's how we evolved. AI is a shortcut.

And just like any other shortcut, it cripples your ability to develop a skill. You can't learn a skill by taking shortcuts. There are people all over who are using AI as an aid to their creativity, but what they don't realize is that creativity is the skill to come up with solutions to a problem. Even legitimate uses of AI may end up as a crutch, and if you take the AI multiplier out of the equation for them, it's going to result into a zero output because they became reliant on it.

I know there are actual legitimate uses for AI, but skill development is not one of them. Writing is one of such skills, whether it is creative writing or not.

I think you nailed the red line when we try to distinguish between a tool and getting artificial aid. The tool is just a tool if it doesn't limit your learning and development. That is why I don't agree with some people here who criticize the usage of spelling, grammar, and punctuation tools (such as Grammarly Basic).
Using AI avoids learning and development almost entirely. You are just letting a machine do the work for you. The product isn't even your own work. Using spelling tools makes you learn. When I type something, the tool lets me know when I misspell. After I get corrected a couple of times, I'll remember, I'll learn. I likely won't repeat that mistake again, tool or no tool. That's a tool that helps you develop and learn. It's important to know the difference.

 

[000zing]

Speaking for myself, I am never again going to compliment any non-native speaker on a perceived good standard of written English.

We may be living in an age of "technical progress". Sadly, it is bringing with it an age of remorseless "human regress", in virtually every area. My earnest hope is that ever more people will begin to recognise this and perhaps even start to rein in the frothing techno-nerds.