Non-Consent/Reluctance

[hpycpl]

I have a question for the group.
I feel that there is a vast difference between non-consent and reluctance. Non-consent to me means that the characters never really want to be involved. The reluctance seems to suggest that they were not sure and gave in to lust or were persuaded. should these be two different categories? I am curious to hear others point of view.
Thanks

 

[EquinoxRising]

I have a question for the group.
I feel that there is a vast difference between non-consent and reluctance. Non-consent to me means that the characters never really want to be involved. The reluctance seems to suggest that they were not sure and gave in to lust or were persuaded. should these be two different categories? I am curious to hear others point of view.
Thanks

On Literotica they're one the same. Simple answer: Lit "doesn't allow" rape stories. (Some people will be here shortly to tell me "how wrong I am"... There's always exceptions to a rule, but this is what the rule claims.)

Years ago they had a sister site (link on Lit titled Extreme) where rape stories were allowed. They broke ties and erased the link from Lit proper. Now the "victim must like it by the end".

 

[sr71plt]

I think the divide is between what is exhibited and what is felt internally. Seen this way "nonconsent" is (or should be. I'm sure stories here push the envelope) short of rape because nonconsent does not demonstrate a clear "no" and rape should and what is felt internally could be a "yes, but I don't want to take responsibility for demonstrating agreement." Similarly, reluctance can demonstrate mild resistance turning into acquiescence and then even active participation while it is a "yes" throughout internally. There are sex games that reflect this--particularly in the genre I write in most.

Thus, when I write a story like this, I make quite clear that the resistance is in what is exhibited accompanied by internal "yes, this is what I want."

 

[Yman67]

Non-consent or Relunctance

I have a question for the group.
I feel that there is a vast difference between non-consent and reluctance. Non-consent to me means that the characters never really want to be involved. The reluctance seems to suggest that they were not sure and gave in to lust or were persuaded. should these be two different categories? I am curious to hear others point of view.
Thanks

I agree with hpycpl! I write reluctant stories under my Yman67 nom de plume. Non-consent seems to imply one is being forced to take part in a sexual encounter, and I call that rape. Don't read rape stories and won't write rape stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

Reluctance and non con are apples and oranges and should be separated, one is the person has a choice, using the common trope of blackmail the woman(mostly, so I always say woman, but there are some male stories too) can decide to give into the sexual demands placed upon her or deal with consequences of whatever the blackmail material is

So she may not be thrilled, but she agrees so she is reluctant, but she is giving consent.

Non consent by definition would mean rape. There is no consent, they being taken against their will so it is rape. The way this site claims(and equinox the smart ass shot herself in the foot by putting the site 'claims' because that is the best way to say it as there is proof to the contrary) is it can start out forcefully, but at some point the victim has to 'like it" Those 360 turns from Oh, god no, to oh god yes, are ludicrous, but I get it, that puts it in the rules

Or the angle of what looks like a gang rape then at the emd its hubby and friends fulfilling the woman's fantasy so rape for three pages then off the hook on a final paragraph.

So you have consent, but hesitation and reluctance and then you have being forcefully taken. The two are very different

On average NC/R is not a high scoring category because people seem to like one for the other. Yes, some like both, but they are very different kinks. A hardcore non con fan told me reluctance stories are boner killers because that's not what he wants. Reluctance fans don't want rape, but end up finding it

So the category is a minefield and authors pay the price. The rape fan keeps finding reluctance and reluctance stumbles into rape, then they get ticked off and vote low.

I get the site does not want to create yet another category. My take would be take mind control, which has very few stories to begin with and stick that into non con because it fits. Mind control is rape light, the illusion of consent because the person is coerced in another way.

If mind control was not rape, then date rape wouldn't be a crime in real life now would it? Come on, Ruby I am so waiting for you to deny that.

So you stick the two rapey categories together an dleave reluctance on its own taking the place of mind control as a stand alone. I am willing to bet you would have happier readers therefore happier authors as there would be less spite bombs given. NC gets their fix without that 'watered down' stuff and reluctance doesn't have to endure flat out rape stories.

Again NC & R are very different and the site should be able to see that and might, but just don't care.

 

[lovecraft68]

And seeing I was goaded-of course without my name being mentioned in typical sneaky style.

Site claims no rape....but Equinuts(who BTW is a huge fan of rape fantasy and is very biased) says there are always exceptions, really? So the site says no underage, but if I told Laurel it was really important in my story to have two fifteen year old kids having sex, she would make an exception?

Of course she wouldn't. The 'exceptions made' is a way of trying to excuse the rapefest stories on here.

Better example lit says no underage, fine. So if you want no underage in stories under the guise of we want lit to be better than a pit like asstr, then you keep it out period.

In other words, if I posted a story called "Fucking my underage daughter" it is going to get a well deserved rejection, right? because I am right there in the title saying , "Hey look rule breaking story" can't get more obvious right?

So let's see...no rape stories....

https://www.literotica.com/s/raping-chay

Oh, my right in the title. Now I have never read this, and it may not be a 'real rape' story, but its in the title. I don't allow rape, but let's the word be in a title so people searching rape stories can come right on down to the site that doesn't allow them. Isn't that cute?

But wait there's more.

https://www.literotica.com/s/hunted-1

author's note-props for this person delivering a good warning BTW-

This story includes scenes of graphic non-consensual sex that some readers may find offensive. They are of a stronger nature than many within this category.

But....but....but lit doesn't allow this!

Oh, but wait exceptions.

See three years ago I had this out with the site in story ideas and when they had no answers to why they say no rape, but its everywhere their answer was to run and hide and have Myrubylips post a new stance on non consent updated from victim has to like it.

Paraphrasing it states that in a case it 'fits' the story it could be allowed. Okay so in the story hunted that I put the note from the woman soldier was captured by the enemy and sexually tortured so maybe they could say it was fitting...

But...so if rape fits the story its allowed, well wouldn't rape always fit in non con? Oh, my how fucking clever they are. Translation its welcome here, except I'll kick one out once in awhile for appearances sake.

Glad you took the cheap shot there E? I can do this all day long because I have thousands of NC stories to pick from.

Before people take it the wrong way, I'm really not kink shaming. If you get off on rape its your business. I just always hope-and do the same for incest as well-that the people reading and writing it keep it fantasy and would never try this in real life.

Of course we have a very special poster in the AH that has pretty much come across that they most likely would if they could get away with it shown by their support of Roosh V who wants to make rape legal, meaning you post rape stories this is the crowd you get

Site doesn't want under age for fear of pedophiles and the LE that follows them, but somehow thinks rape stories-especially easily searched ones with it in the title-won't bring that type of sex offender here. Hilarious.

End of the day my point is the laughable hypocrisy of "We don't allow rape stories, but please check out our NON CONSENT section.

Put simply....it's like a person claiming not to be antisemitic and having a swastika tattoo.

And that is an argument that can't be disputed when its all over the place here.

 

[sr71plt]

That sort of got incoherent. And I couldn't tell who you were railing against here.

 

[lovecraft68]

That sort of got incoherent. And I couldn't tell who you were railing against here.

Mostly making a point, but threw a few digs at Equinuts. I would think she'd be tired of losing this game, let alone egg it on.

But on thinking of it, I like the title "Raping Chay" tells you exactly what it is. You don't like it, you know to stay away, you like rape? It's telling you it has what you want.

And the question I would ask the person here claiming lit doesn't allow rape, what person clicks on that? One who enjoys rape stories of course and the site let it right on through and its been here for years.

As I said before they can choose to carry/not carry any thing they want, but its childish and hypocritical-not to mention how foolish it looks-for them to say one thing and have the opposite right there in your face.

 

[sr71plt]

Ah, well. As I noted, I see some separation between nonconsent and rape (but, as I also noted, I wouldn't say that everyone putting stories in nonconsent here is seeing a separation). I see that there can be a difference between what is happening on the surface and the character's response to it emotionally and that, as long as you deal with the emotional level in a story and make clear that they are more receptive to it on that level than on the surface, you're dealing with something besides rape. This allows for what is a very strong rape fantasy subgenre in erotica that many readers who don't either want to be actually raped and don't condone it are still attracted to. I think you're being too hardnosed on this and trying to shut down on an aspect of erotica that isn't really RL rape.

As comes up again and again when you rant like this on this subject, others could be just as hardnosed about your own baby, incest, which makes you come across as hypocritical.

 

[lovecraft68]

Ah, well. As I noted, I see some separation between nonconsent and rape (but, as I also noted, I wouldn't say that everyone putting stories in nonconsent here is seeing a separation).

I think this is key, there are different 'levels' or writing in NC and of course a readership for everyone. A lot of NC writers will stay within the rules even though a woman going from being terrified and begging to loving it in two sentences is silly, it fits the loose rule.

But as I said a person I had a long conversation with a NC reader on this matter said those are boner killers to him, he wants full out rape, and added only in fantasy fiction of course, and also said he has no problem finding it here.

As for incest I've said many times I don't support it in real life unless it happens to be between consenting adults then its no ones business, but the reality is in real life its abuse and...oh, right its rape

The difference here for the sake of this argument which is about site hypocrisy and not kink shaming is the site allows incest stories providing they meet the rest of the rules, the site doesn't say 'we allow no incest please check out our incest/taboo section' But they do play that game with non consent and that is what I'm talking about not the people who like the stories in either category.

But I will add that incest can bring the wrong type of crowd and they seem to be looking for the underage and the site claims they are against under age to keep the pedo sex offender type out of here because Law enforcement follows them

But again they don't think a category full of flat out rape stories could bring rapists Any serial rapist ever caught had a computer full of rape porn and rape stories and I know from a friend who works in SVU in New York that lit has been found on the computers of two he's arrested.

But hey, they must be mistaken because those stories aren't allowed here

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh and I just noticed this got dumped in the AH...I would have thought discussing certain types of stories would be valid in feedback, but I forgot who the trigger happy mod is there.

 

[sr71plt]

I did see that it got deleted from Feedback and did, too, surface the image of a trigger-happy Mod. But hadn't seen that it landed in the AH.

 

[NotWise]

The thread wasn't intended to give feedback to an author on a specific story, so I imagine that's why it was moved.

 

[sr71plt]

The thread wasn't intended to give feedback to an author on a specific story, so I imagine that's why it was moved.

The thread has been butchered. The origins of the discussion, which were indexed to a specific story, were lopped off when it was moved here.

 

[NotWise]

The thread has been butchered. The origins of the discussion, which were indexed to a specific story, were lopped off when it was moved here.

Well that's a complicated moderating maneuver.

 

[Devilius]

Don't you dumbfucks get tired of hijacking every thread with this theme? That thread in Story Feedback asked for your favorite non-con stories, not your opinion on it.

LC, quit hijacking threads. Put your opinions in a sig and be done with it.

 

[Learin]

Dammit.... I had a picture ready for the occasion

https://encrypted-tbn2.***********/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmB1DrWHNEO-5Jv5ZzuMAGhWwq7dqVmugRPoRaAqTJR0zfAOJp

 

[sr71plt]

Don't you dumbfucks get tired of hijacking every thread with this theme? That thread in Story Feedback asked for your favorite non-con stories, not your opinion on it.

LC, quit hijacking threads. Put your opinions in a sig and be done with it.

For the record, LC didn't hijack this thread, the OP of the trimmed down thread, hpycpl, did. Asked a question. Posts that followed responded to that question.

 

[LusciousLoralie]

adding my two cents to a mostly dead thread

As someone who has had rape fantasies for a very long time, I was disappointed when I first joined Lit and saw that most, if not all, of the NC/R stories were about people that either secretly or blatantly wanted it. Over time though, I've come to understand why it's necessary to have that element and I've even incorporated it, more or less, into my own two NC/R stories that I'm currently working on. (For the record, I see the separation not only between reality and fantasy, but between non-consent and reluctance as well.)

I also think that Lit can be hypocritical in their rules but that's more something to be discussed over PM rather than on the boards.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

First, it's moot. Lit isn't going to separate the categories.

Reluctance is "oh my gosh I shouldn't want this, oh my, it's so bad, and I wouldn't ever... I just want to... oh, he's not stopping... oh my... " ending in yes yes yes oh yes. It's every bodice ripper ever.

Nonconsent has to involve forcing some outcome. It doesn't need to be sexual and it certainly doesn't need to be rape (and Lit has a rule about rape) but somewhere a No got ignored.

But there's a fuzzy boundary. Mix a really high pressure seduction and some roughness with a shy girl, and while some people will call it rape even if no penetration happens, others will be begging for more detail and never consider it rape as long as the girl squeaks out anything that can be taken as an assent. In other words some readership wants reluctance to sail as close as possible to the line of rape as Lit will allow, even while others demand the line be given a wide berth. Some people get quite dogmatic and monomaniacal about their positions, but that doesn't mater because Lit is Lit and exactly one opinion matters.

My guess is combining the categories as Lit has done serves two goals. First, Lit doesn't to make judgment calls as to which category a given story is. Second, it leaves room for readers who want shy girls pushed into it.

 

[CharlieB4]

My thoughts,

I have a question for the group.
I feel that there is a vast difference between non-consent and reluctance. Non-consent to me means that the characters never really want to be involved. The reluctance seems to suggest that they were not sure and gave in to lust or were persuaded. should these be two different categories? I am curious to hear others point of view.
Thanks

I've mostly written in the LW section but recently have posted a few stories in NC/R. The way I get my head around it is;
Reluctance as many have said earlier is the person saying of thinking I shouldn't be doing this but the reader knows from the get go they really want to.

Non Consent, the person says no but has to submit because of other reasons, blackmail, threats to partner, etc.

 

[Serafina1210]

I've just submitted my first NonConsent/Reluctance story. Wish me luck.

 

[Hypoxia]

I've just submitted my first NonConsent/Reluctance story. Wish me luck.

G'Luck!

I'm not much into noncon and I'm REALLY not into rape. Laurel moved a story I meant for LW to NC but the 'victim' was not resisting, merely surprised. A scene (scroll down) in another piece has an older sister drugging her brother for sex; they'd been fucking for years but the event was still noncon, yet that wasn't the story's theme, so it stayed in Incest.

I'll suggest that context is vital here. Do those involved have a consensual history? Is there resistance or violence? The "they eventually like it" thang is irrelevant here IMHO, less significant than the victim's struggle. Struggle means rape. Lack of struggle could mean consent, or fatalistic acceptance, or fear. Those factors IMHO drive the classification.

 

[Serafina1210]

G'Luck!

I'm not much into noncon and I'm REALLY not into rape. Laurel moved a story I meant for LW to NC but the 'victim' was not resisting, merely surprised. A scene (scroll down) in another piece has an older sister drugging her brother for sex; they'd been fucking for years but the event was still noncon, yet that wasn't the story's theme, so it stayed in Incest.

I'll suggest that context is vital here. Do those involved have a consensual history? Is there resistance or violence? The "they eventually like it" thang is irrelevant here IMHO, less significant than the victim's struggle. Struggle means rape. Lack of struggle could mean consent, or fatalistic acceptance, or fear. Those factors IMHO drive the classification.

I don't even know how to classify it. Not a lot of physical coercion, but more a very clever and overbearing man spotting a woman's weaknesses and skilfully exploiting them to fuck and torment her. It looks as if it's clear for tomorrow. I hope I get some comments so I can figure out what the hell it is.

 

[Serafina1210]

I've decided that I love NonConsent/Reluctance! I just posted my first story in that category (with one of my favorite fantasies, involving submission to a Macheath-like villain), and three days on, I can say the experience has been terrific. Consider:

- The readership has been healthy (for me anyway: LC would hardly even notice it). Based on the voting, a few may even have finished reading the story!

- Score is lowish, but since almost every story in NC/R has a low score, who cares? No one there is reading only stories with red Hs because there are almost none, and those are chapters.

- Comments are sparse there, but have mostly not been knuckle-draggers. I got one of those "this story is too dark" whines (man, what do you expect in this category?), but finally came up with what I thought a perfect response (attached).

All in all, a good time.