Nobody really knows

Wilson23

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Posting this in the PB because there's no way it doesn't turn political.

In both scientific and philosophical terms, the existence of God can never be ruled out entirely. (God can never even be defined satisfactorily.) But nobody knows anything ABOUT God. Nobody knows what His word is. Nobody knows what his will is. Nobody knows if he hears or answers prayers. Nobody knows whether He cares if we capitalize his pronouns. A lot of people THINK they know, and sometimes they think it really hard -- but they don't.

The most odious, objectionable thing about Christianity is that it places VALUE on FAITH. You just can't get more wrongheaded than that. Faith is a vice, not a virtue -- I am tempted to say a sin, because sloth is traditionally ranked as a sin and faith is a form of sloth -- it means giving up on any rigorous search for truth and just accepting what you're told. And all faith in the religious sense is a form of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is not always wrong but it is always suspect, and you don't need to be a philosopher to see why.

And don't gimme any crap about Non-Overlapping Magisteria!
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-Overlapping_Magisteria

From "The Case Against Christianity" by Michael Martin:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Christianity
He addresses arguments of the form that we ought to believe in Christianity because it is good for us to do so. These can be seen as pragmatic or ethical arguments - or, as he puts the distinction, believing for beneficial rather than epistemic reasons. Examples of such arguments include Pascal's wager and William James' attempts to justify religious belief in pragmatic terms.
He argues that there is a strong presumption that we ought to believe for epistemic rather than beneficial reasons. At this juncture he invokes W. K. Clifford's arguments in his famous essay The Ethics of Belief that believing without sufficient evidence is morally wrong. Clifford advances a number of reasons for its alleged immorality. Martin adopts these reasons, but adds an additional element: in addition to its violation of our moral duties, Martin believes belief without evidence contradicts epistemological duties which exist independently from ethics.
Martin accepts that, hypothetically, there are situations in which belief without evidence may be justifiable. He gives the example of the nuclear terrorist who threatens to destroy New York, London, Paris and Tokyo, unless you convert to Christianity.[3] He argues that, under such an unlikely circumstance, the rational and moral approach is to at least try to believe in Christianity. However, given that these are very rare circumstances, his implication is that in more ordinary circumstances belief in Christianity without evidence is morally and epistemologically impermissible.
 
Marx opposed Christianity as well. But Christianity and its faith undeniably built and shaped the character, values, and institutions of the greatest and most advanced (Western ) civilization in history.
 
Marx opposed Christianity as well.
Well, there's nothing in Marx' philosophy that actually argues against the tenets of Christianity. It is an atheistic philosophy only in that it assume purely material causes of the course of human events, allowing no role for the Finger of God -- but, so does any theory that won't get you laughed out of a history department, these days, and for some time before Marx'. Also he opposes organized religion as a tool of the ruling class, but that's whole other discussion.


Reading Mr Malcolm Muggeridge's brilliant and depressing book, The Thirties, I thought of a rather cruel trick I once played on a wasp. He was sucking jam on my plate, and I cut him in half. He paid no attention, merely went on with his meal, while a tiny stream of jam trickled out of his severed œsophagus. Only when he tried to fly away did he grasp the dreadful thing that had happened to him. It is the same with modern man. The thing that has been cut away is his soul, and there was a period — twenty years, perhaps — during which he did not notice it.

It was absolutely necessary that the soul should be cut away. Religious belief, in the form in which we had known it, had to be abandoned. By the nineteenth century it was already in essence a lie, a semi-conscious device for keeping the rich rich and the poor poor. The poor were to be contented with their poverty, because it would all be made up to them in the world beyound the grave, usually pictured as something mid-way between Kew gardens and a jeweller's shop. Ten thousand a year for me, two pounds a week for you, but we are all the children of God. And through the whole fabric of capitalist society there ran a similar lie, which it was absolutely necessary to rip out.

Consequently there was a long period during which nearly every thinking man was in some sense a rebel, and usually a quite irresponsible rebel. Literature was largely the literature of revolt or of disintegration. Gibbon, Voltaire, Rousseau, Shelley, Byron, Dickens, Stendhal, Samuel Butler, Ibsen, Zola, Flaubert, Shaw, Joyce — in one way or another they are all of them destroyers, wreckers, saboteurs. For two hundred years we had sawed and sawed and sawed at the branch we were sitting on. And in the end, much more suddenly than anyone had foreseen, our efforts were rewarded, and down we came. But unfortunately there had been a little mistake. The thing at the bottom was not a bed of roses after all, it was a cesspool full of barbed wire.

<snip>

Mr Aldous Huxley's Brave New World was a good caricature of the hedonistic Utopia, the kind of thing that seemed possible and even imminent before Hitler appeared, but it had no relation to the actual future. What we are moving towards at this moment is something more like the Spanish Inquisition, and probably far worse, thanks to the radio and the secret police. There is very little chance of escaping it unless we can reinstate the belief in human brotherhood without the need for a ‘next world’ to give it meaning. It is this that leads innocent people like the Dean of Canterbury to imagine that they have discovered true Christianity in Soviet Russia. No doubt they are only the dupes of propaganda, but what makes them so willing to be deceived is their knowledge that the Kingdom of Heaven has somehow got to be brought on to the surface of the earth. We have got to be the children of God, even though the God of the Prayer Book no longer exists.

The very people who have dynamited our civilization have sometimes been aware of this, Marx's famous saying that ‘religion is the opium of the people’ is habitually wrenched out of its context and given a meaning subtly but appreciably different from the one he gave it. Marx did not say, at any rate in that place, that religion is merely a dope handed out from above; he said that it is something the people create for themselves to supply a need that he recognized to be a real one. ‘Religion is the sigh of the soul in a soulless world. Religion is the opium of the people.’ What is he saying except that man does not live by bread alone, that hatred is not enough, that a world worth living in cannot be founded on ‘realism’ and machine-guns? If he had foreseen how great his intellectual influence would be, perhaps he would have said it more often and more loudly.

-- George Orwell, 1940
 
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Well, there's nothing in Marx' philosophy that actually argues against the tenets of Christianity. It is an atheistic philosophy only in that it assume purely material causes of the course of human events, allowing no role for the Finger of God -- but, so does any theory that won't get you laughed out of a history department, these days, and for some time before Marx'. Also he opposes organized religion as a tool of the ruling class, but that's whole other discussion.
Marx’s opposition was not just theological or philosophical, but materialist and political. He didn’t just oppose Christianity as a set of beliefs; he opposed its social function in capitalist societies. His goal was to abolish the conditions that create the need for religion, not merely to refute religious doctrines.
 
Marx’s opposition was not just theological or philosophical, but materialist and political. He didn’t just oppose Christianity as a set of beliefs; he opposed its social function in capitalist societies. His goal was to abolish the conditions that create the need for religion, not merely to refute religious doctrines.
Wouldn't we ALL like to abolish the conditions that create the need for religion?

Well, it's not really possible. There are four Gods -- that is, four psychological human needs God answers:
1) God the Creator. Simply answers the question, "Where did all this come from?"
2) God the Provider. The one you pray to when you want something.
3) God the Judge. Provides some moral order to existence.
4) God the King of Heaven. Provides a personal afterlife.

Even godless religions like Buddhism can play all roles but the first. (Buddha never claimed to be a god, but they pray to him anyway.)
 
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Wouldn't we ALL like to abolish the conditions that create the need for religion?

Well, it's not really possible. There are four Gods -- that is, four psychological human needs God answers:
1) God the Creator. Simply answers the question, "Where did all this come from?"
2) God the Provider. The one you pray to when you want something.
3) God the Judge. Provides some moral order to existence.
4) God the King of Heaven. Provides a personal afterlife.
Christianity built the greatest civilization on Earth.
 
Christianity built the greatest civilization on Earth.
No, Christians built it. Very different matter.

In any case, how does social/political success reflect on the truth of religious doctrine? Was Islam true when the Euros were primitive by comparison?
 
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