No Madiera for Oggbashan!

[amicus]

I enjoy dueling with the Ogg, (we always use blunted tips), and I picture him as his avatar indicates, resting expansively in his huge chair before an even larger stone fireplace with hounds lying nearby and pretty maids all in a row meeting his every need.

News headlines scream that Britain is considering banning alcohol. A brief search turned up several less and more inflamatory headlines, but apparently, as in Russia, alcoholism is a large problem in British society and the healthcare people bemoan that alcoholism consumes a large portion of limited resources to service the medical needs of the public.

So, Ogg, Cheers! Let us lift a glass of that fortified wine named Madiera, from Portugal, or a nearby Island, I think.



Amicus...(who has no wife, thank you)

 

[poppy_cock]

I think you'll find that that's 'ban alcohol advertising'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8242385.stm

The UK might find it hard to deal with all those health problems if it didn't obtain a hefty amount of revenue from excise duties on wine and spirits - not to mention VAT...

 

[amicus]

Thus no more, 'discounts' for 'Happy Hour' tipplers. Another crawler headline said alcohol related illness had doubled in the past decade.

Are Brits all stressed out about something in particular?

Ami

 

[oggbashan]

Amicus,

I buy my wine in France. The taxes are less and the quality of the basic wines are better, particularly if bought direct from the producer.

The request, by doctors, to ban advertising of alcohol is a response to the Labour Government's Licensing Act 2003 which allowed alcohol selling premises to open 24/7 if they wanted to. The government hoped it would lead to "continental" attitudes to drinking with customers sitting around sipping wine in small quantities.

The result has been longer hours and more alcohol abuse particularly by younger customers.

Locally I campaigned successfully for a more reasonable interpretation of the legislation by pubs and clubs. I visited all of them and negotiated opening hours that are not anti-social. The result has been extended but not unreasonable hours.

What I couldn't do is to stop major retailers such as supermarkets selling alcohol at very cheap promotional prices. The local Police have successfully shut down a shop that was selling alcohol to very young teenagers. They and I can't stop irresponsible parents such as one mother who bought 48 cans of strong lager for her 14-year-old son and his friend for a one night sleepover. When they were arrested for causing criminal damage and being drunk and disorderly outside a neighbour's house SHE didn't think she had done anything wrong.

The UK has a problem with a small minority of young people who drink too much alcohol consistently. We are seeing major liver damage in people who are still teenagers. Some of the advertising and marketing is aimed far too young. Who except young people would drink toffee-flavoured vodka? The doctors recognise the problem. The government doesn't - yet.

Og

PS. See, Amicus, not everything in the UK is wonderful. Abuse of alcohol is a real problem. So are drugs. However if someone is caught with a small quantity of cannabis they will be dealt with by the police on the spot, the cannabis confiscated and given a caution - unless they are caught a second time. Even then, jail is unlikely except for dealing.

 

[amicus]

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/31959.html


LONDON, Feb. 18

Alcoholism brought about by binge drinking has reached a new high in Britain, with the problem even reaching 12-year-olds, a report says.

The Independent on Sunday said a new study has found that there is a need in Britain for alcoholism care for younger drinkers now that a hidden epidemic of child alcoholism has emerged.

The study found that in comparison to figures from a decade ago, British teens are drinking twice as much and drinking by 11- to 13-year-olds have increased by three times.

~~~

Regardless of the accuracy of the 'crawler headline' I noticed, it did prompt me to query the issue and perhaps learn something.

Your personal involvement in the problem/issue, is notable and admirable, of course, it also is illustrative of how social problems are dealt with by legislation, restrictions and such when a society is viewed as a 'whole', in terms of dealing with such issues.

It is not much different than here in the US and the Russian problems are equally attracting governmental attention.

I will trust memory and not search, but, as I recall, Canadians face similar problems with youth and alcohol and alcoholism in general.

All of this poses a larger sociological question to me, that of the general causes of addictive behavior with both alcohol and other drugs.

If such behavior is merely a symptom of a deeper underlying problem in societies in genera...what might that cause be?

A even wider question that has always troubled me, is why governments are required to restrict, to one degree or another, public access to addictive substances?

It is generally accepted that government has the obligation to ban such substances as Opium and Cocaine and as you know, alcohol was banned in the US in our history and even Marijuana is a controlled substance.

If one claims a 'free society', why not the freedom to consume whatever one chooses?

Amicus

 

[oggbashan]

Amicus,

I think the problem of young people abusing stimulants is a symptom of a much less permissive society in terms of risk-taking by youngsters.

I won't go into reminiscences about how much better things were in my youth except for a couple of examples:

1. I used to fly between Gibraltar and London when I was aged 10. At Gibraltar my parents would see me onto the aircraft. A stewardess would nominally be "responsible" for me during the flight but that responsibility was tempered by her duties. At Heathrow I would disembark, pass through customs, and make my own way to my uncle's house through Central London and several changes of transport. Neither I, my parents, my uncle and aunt, nor anyone else thought that was unusual. A ten-year-old couldn't do that today.

2. My wife used to visit her great-aunt about 200 miles away for a fortnight. My wife, then aged 11, would walk, carrying her suitcase a mile to the train station, travel by train to London, cross London by underground, catch a mainline train, changing on route and arrive in her great-aunt's town. Then my wife would catch a bus to near her great-aunt's house. Again no one thought it unusual. Could an 11-year-old girl do that today?

I think abuse of alcohol and other substances is just a different form of risk-taking and young human beings like to take risks. So many risks that could be taken fifty years ago are no longer socially acceptable.

Og

 

[amicus]

I didn't understand what you meant by 'less permissive' society until I read your anecdotal references.

I think that, in general, most everyone would agree that modern society is far more, 'permissive' than ever before, but your examples do make your point.

Referring to pre teens and young teens, back in the dark ages when I was raising children, they had breakfast prepared at home, along with a lunch box or lunch money, were escorted to the school bus and met at the school bus at the end of the day by either myself or their mother.

Just by the nature of that existence, I knew there whereabouts 24/7, knew who their friends were and the friends parents if they were to go out to play or do a sleepover. Now they could sneak a candy from their mother's stash, or a spoonful of sugar, but drug usage simply could not have happened without being obvious and noticed.

I am not going to beat the 'dead horse' of single parent families and schools serving as surrogate parents, but it does seem to me tha the overall, 'permissiveness' of society has not only provided the opportunity for substance abuse, but because of the alienation and the destruction of conventional family values, has provided the motivation for such abuse.

I still picture you as Lord of the Manor, bestowing largesse upon the household, kinda like, "Cold Comfort Farm" style, where the Matriarch ruled the roost....(until the uppity Kate Beckinsale swept in)



Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Minors have always used alcohol; it was common, in fact, during the 19th Century in America, and in lieu of potable drinking water. Wine doesnt have the storage problem water has.

The problem today is minors serve no purpose and have no utility, so they drink to amuse themselves.

 

[amicus]

Minors have always used alcohol; it was common, in fact, during the 19th Century in America, and in lieu of potable drinking water. Wine doesnt have the storage problem water has.

The problem today is minors serve no purpose and have no utility, so they drink to amuse themselves.

~~~

And to what, pray tell, JBJ do you attribute the fact that 'minors serve no purpose.", and do you see a solution?

Surely not Obama style mandatory national service....ahem...

ami

 

[Elianna]

I think that teens are allowed to run wild and many parents have no idea what their kids are up to. I think that many people who are parents don't know how to be parents. They're more interested in self-gratification than they are in raising healthy, responsible children.

There are many reasons teens use substances.

First, advertising makes drugs and alcohol look cool. For example; there is an energy drink called Cocaine...hmmmm does that say something about drugs? Red Bull girls sneak onto high school campuses and try to get kids to get pumped on caffeine...the "legal" substance.

We're in a pill-popping society. Not happy? Take a pill. Need an erection? Take a pill. Need to concentrate? Take an Adderall that you bought off a buddy for $5 so you can cram for your exams. Wanna feel cool...take Mom's Vicodin.

Combine that with broken families, lack of parental supervision, and the biochemistry of your typical teenager (who really shouldn't be popping pills when their bodies are developing unless absolutely necessary) and you've got a recipe for abuse.

I think it's a combination of everything; advertising, availability, pop culture, poor parenting, instant self-gratification.

What's the cure? I think parents need to get their heads out of their asses and pay attention to what their kids are doing! I think people need to get their heads out of their asses and look at what advertising companies are selling their kids. So in conclusion. We all need to pull our heads out of our asses, learn how to be responsible, and realize that instant gratification isn't always good. Then we need to model it in our lives and teach it to our kids.



(Sorry. I'm a little passionate about this issue. I'm done now.)

 

[amicus]

Passionate is good, Elianna, and not even in moderation.

'Advertising...', a bit of a buzz word in my book, as peddlars hawking their goods have always been a part of the exchange of goods and services.

In a competitive society where innovation is paramount, those who don't advertise, or cannot afford it, perish.

I don't fault advertising for anything, even 'snake oil' salesmen should have the freedom to proclaim their goods, even to a gullible public with a 'caveat emptor' stipulation, let the buyer beware.

Only the "State" advertises in a command society and since there is no competition in a socialist world, the State also determines the products available.

That is why I am always suspicious of those who blame "The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit', as the cause of societies ills.

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

~~~

And to what, pray tell, JBJ do you attribute the fact that 'minors serve no purpose.", and do you see a solution?

Surely not Obama style mandatory national service....ahem...

ami

You must think I make my shit up.

Minors arent necessary for their family's economic welfare, they dont even contribute babysitting or lawnmowing labor anymore. A century ago it was entirely different. They do no work to absorb their energy and theyre bored.

 

[amicus]

My apologies, JBJ, I did not mean to imply anything of the sort.

It is rather a 'given' that the Pandora's box of smaller families, fewer children per family, feminine independence and the social structure, as it exists, is not about to change anytime soon.

Is modern society, with men and women treated as equals and children, well, I was going to say, 'un needed' and without purpose, just something that comes with the turf of 21st century behavior patterns or is it an anomaly that will pass?

My understanding of human nature is that children must have the individual attention and nuturing that only a traditional nuclear family can provide or they do indeed become dysfunctional and without direction.

Heard a thing the other day, "Dysfunction Family" is redundant....I had to chuckle.



Ami

 

[Elianna]

That is why I am always suspicious of those who blame "The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit', as the cause of societies ills.

Amicus

I don't think I'm trying to "blame" advertising. You're right... buyer beware. I think what pisses me off that the target for mind altering products is not the "adult" buyer, it's kids.

Today's teens have a dangerous combination: lots of free time (as JBJ stated) and money. However, teenagers still have the same poor judgment they've always had because of their brain development. Advertisers know that, target this market and get rich off of it. It seems a little like exploitation. Oh yeah. And parents are dumb enough to give kids money and not supervise what they spend it on.

 

[amicus]

Elianna....I recall one year, long ago, when one of my tiny daughters just had to have a certain 'Doll', for Christmas, Cabbage Patch, maybe...long ago...

So...off I went to the Malls and Toy Centers...to find that they were all sold out and had waiting lists.

Most advertising is directed towards women, as they do the majority of shopping and buying and of course, even small children can influence the parents.

The free market with all its' paraphenalia, is not a perfect world by any means, but far better than anything else.



Amicus

 

[Elianna]

Ami:

I understand what you're saying, but there's a huge difference between a cabbage patch kid and mind-altering substances. I guess my thought is... should those really be marketed to kids? We're teaching them at a young age that it's okay to down a substance (like excess caffeine) to get a "high." Something to think about.

Since this was talking about alcoholism with younger people, I think the topic is relevant. Teens are already getting drunk and doing stupid things. Should we condone advertisers who spend millions of dollars targeting the teen audience and encouraging that behavior? After all, it's not which substance you use, what it really boils down to is the behavior. They're learning the behavior awfully young. I don't think we even realize the slippery slope were standing on.

 

[amicus]

Not that it matters, (Neverending Story), but I have been in the business of discussing/debating issues for almost 50 years now, radio, television, newspapers, and I surely think I 'know' what the issues are, but...solutions?

To me, it has boiled down to a single, 'litmus' test on all issues: does it help or hinder individual liberty and freedom.

A new generation of kids have Iphones and 4G networks, devices that do just about everything imaginable in terms of communication and dispersal of information and of course, advertisements.

I still don't have a 'cell phone', silly me.

But my kids do, from BlueTooth to the latest and best.

I am not real happy about growing old...but...they tell me it happens to everyone....whoopee...

So many, on this forum and elsewhere, purport to have 'solutions' to societal problems, solutions that involve diminished choices and freedoms. I have no doubt that some advertising influences some young people to adopt dangerous behaviors.

Does that mean the police power should be used to limit, restrict, regulate, manage, control advertising? If so, radio, television, newspapers, magazines, the internet? How much control and where?

Government can manage, manipulate human behavior for just so long and just so much before those who cherish their freedom will refuse to participate. What follows that?

There are criminal elements in every society. Why? Is it genetic? Environment? Lack of moral training when young? A portion of everything you or I ever earned goes to providing police protection from criminals, courts systems and jails. Why are there the ones with violent tendencies who respect no individuals rights or properties. Does more or less law and enforcement change that behavior? Why?

My sig line contains: "Things you do come back to you as if they knew the way", I suspect that is a truism that applies to at least a generation of young people who have grown up outside a stable family environment. The results, I fear, are just becoming evident and just the beginning.

Amicus

 

[Handley_Page]

~~~

And to what, pray tell, JBJ do you attribute the fact that 'minors serve no purpose.", and do you see a solution?

Surely not Obama style mandatory national service....ahem...

ami

There is a body of opinion over here that some sort of "National Service" (not necessarily in the Military), would be a damned good thing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My apologies, JBJ, I did not mean to imply anything of the sort.

It is rather a 'given' that the Pandora's box of smaller families, fewer children per family, feminine independence and the social structure, as it exists, is not about to change anytime soon.

Is modern society, with men and women treated as equals and children, well, I was going to say, 'un needed' and without purpose, just something that comes with the turf of 21st century behavior patterns or is it an anomaly that will pass?

My understanding of human nature is that children must have the individual attention and nuturing that only a traditional nuclear family can provide or they do indeed become dysfunctional and without direction.

Heard a thing the other day, "Dysfunction Family" is redundant....I had to chuckle.



Ami

Exactly! Junior and Sis are home alone with no supervision and no work to do. They dont babysit or cut the grass or wash the car or shit.

Jesus! When I was 16 I worked at a bakery from 2AM til 7AM, went to school, then helped my old man after school. I hated it. But there was no way for me to get in much trouble. Ditto for my friends. Everyone worked, went to school, and studied.

 

[Liar]

Exactly! Junior and Sis are home alone with no supervision and no work to do. They dont babysit or cut the grass or wash the car or shit.

Mow the lawn? Study? How will the poor kids find the time Facebook and World of Warcraft?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LIAR

It was an awful time to live. On the other hand, we took guns and knives to school and the staff expected that we'd be responsible and act maturely. It was certain death if we didnt.

There's an art to beating children our sires learned from beating slaves before breakfast and bedtime every day. You want them to expect death, then pull your punches just a little. Done correctly, a beating is inspirational.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Ami, in the absence of Ogg, allow me to throw my two cents worth into the ring.

In the USA, we have a quasi-religico abhorrence to alcohol that keeps an age-limit of 21 and an abundance of under-age keg parties. This works well, in that our youth have fun but realize it is strictly 'verboten'. That adds to the excitement of rebellion.

The UK, from my visits, have no social or employer reprimand for being totally drunk in a city centre over a weekend. This has nothing to do with adolescents' proclivities but, rather, what they can get away with.

Like recreational drugs, which are much more prevalent in UK than US, a Socialist government in the UK has presided over an abandonment of young people in need.