Nietzsche Thread

[SEVERUSMAX]

Thoughts on Herr Nietzsche?

Was he a misogynist? A man in love with his sister? A man suffering from siphylis? Or, as IMO, a genius at philosophy with some flaws in his theories?

 

[Guest]

Nothing coherent to add, I'm afraid, except quoting one of my fav lines from Blazing Saddles.

Howard Johnson, "You know, Nietzsche says, "Out of chaos comes order."

Olson Johnson, "Oh, blow it out your ass, Howard!"

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Nothing coherent to add, I'm afraid, except quoting one of my fav lines from Blazing Saddles.

Howard Johnson, "You know, Nietzsche says, "Out of chaos comes order."

Olson Johnson, "Oh, blow it out your ass, Howard!"

LMAO.

 

[Pure]

God is dead.

I'm not sure if N invented this saying, but his name is connected. Its meaning is not always obvious, but has to do with religion ceasing to play a part in many people's lives (in the developed countries).

----
There is of course the famous exchange of grafitti:
God is Dead-- Nietzsche

To which someone added:

Nietzsche is Dead--God.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Don't know if he coined it, but he definitely said it- in "Thus Spake Zarathustra". "Once to sin against God was the most dreadful thing, but GOD DIED, and those sinners with him."

 

[Pure]

One essential point of Nietzsche

N aimed to be a classifier and analyzer (archaeologist, if you will) of moralities--stressing, if you like, their variety, and some essential divides, for example between healthy and unhealthy moralities..

A main point of his, aside from the "God" issue, is that the *morality* associated with Xtianity was unhealthy, and that it represented a definite break with older moralities like Aristotle's, in stressing the virtues of the weak, and the evil of the strong. Altruism being an example of one virtue of the weak. Another: "The meek shall inherit the earth."

Thus he ridiculed those conscientious atheists and 'ethical humanists' who tout their courage in rejecting God, slavishly follow the Xtian virtues, perhaps better than the Xtians.

The 'egoist' of N's ideal is--in one form-- more of the artistically creative person, from Michelangelo to Goethe (poet playwright). In another form, certain cultured, visionary military figures like Julius Caesar intrigued him.

In any case 'egoism,' 'self regard' and a type of 'pride' are back on the table and the 'hold' of Christian virtues is loosened.
---

 

[elsol]

Morality is herd instinct in the individual. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[snooper]

Shakespeare (as so often) knew and understood many years earlier Nietzsche's New Morality. He put it in its rightful context when he had it propounded by a half-mad hunchback on the eve of his defeat, as the King said, "Conscience is a word that cowards use, / Invented first to keep the strong in awe."

 

[Pure]

You missed the point, snooper!

but g'morning to ya!


of course every set of ideas has antecedents. there are many 'existential' thoughts in Shakespeare.

Nietzsche's point is that he wants a re-evaluation of moralities and a new respect for the ancient ones, such as Aristotle's. These stress the distinction between "noble" and "base" (good and bad); so N's favored morality is hardly "New" or presented as such.

Opposed/contrasting to them, according to N, are moralities that stress righteous vs. evil (good and evil). (Hence N's phrase 'beyond good and evil'-- simply means 'beyond Xtian morality' not beyond any form of self control or conscience).

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

N aimed to be a classifier and analyzer (archaeologist, if you will) of moralities--stressing, if you like, their variety, and some essential divides, for example between healthy and unhealthy moralities..

A main point of his, aside from the "God" issue, is that the *morality* associated with Xtianity was unhealthy, and that it represented a definite break with older moralities like Aristotle's, in stressing the virtues of the weak, and the evil of the strong. Altruism being an example of one virtue of the weak. Another: "The meek shall inherit the earth."

Thus he ridiculed those conscientious atheists and 'ethical humanists' who tout their courage in rejecting God, slavishly follow the Xtian virtues, perhaps better than the Xtians.

The 'egoist' of N's ideal is--in one form-- more of the artistically creative person, from Michelangelo to Goethe (poet playwright). In another form, certain cultured, visionary military figures like Julius Caesar intrigued him.

In any case 'egoism,' 'self regard' and a type of 'pride' are back on the table and the 'hold' of Christian virtues is loosened.
---

Basically true. He rejected the notion that there could be an empirical basis for morality, and having tried to find one myself, I have to concede him his point in that matter. I am 99% sure of the accuracy of my personal code of ethics. It's that nagging 1% that won't go away and forces me to admit that my views could be wrong. He wanted instead to form a TYPOLOGY of morals, listing the various kinds.

Of course, as he put it, the herd refuses to acknowledge the existence of any other kind of morality. "I am morality, and there is no other besides me," to quote from Beyond Good And Evil.

 

[Pure]

Exactly, sev,

A typology of moraliites does NOT sit well with certain of them. The Xtian and the 'herd' moralities are prime examples. These work in terms, so to say, of the lowest common denominator, and uniformity.
The "flock" of Jesus' sheep. As Jesus said, "The first shall be last...." IOW the ones at the head, the powerful, will be brought down, and the humble, exalted (a slight paradox, it might be noted).

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

A typology of moraliites does NOT sit well with certain of them. The Xtian and the 'herd' moralities are prime examples. These work in terms, so to say, of the lowest common denominator, and uniformity.
The "flock" of Jesus' sheep. As Jesus said, "The first shall be last...." IOW the ones at the head, the powerful, will be brought down, and the humble, exalted (a slight paradox, it might be noted).

Admitting other choices is a threat to their conformity.

 

[Pure]

OK, sev,

so let's look at main problem:

the exception on one's own behalf. like the guy who chooses to stand, to get a good view in the movie theater, saying 'others should sit, of course, but I choose to stand'. (we will assume he cannot offer a good reason such as 'i'm a dwarf and couldn't see otherwise.' he simply wants to be the exception.

the 'herd morality' involves, for instance, taking care of other members of the herd, being compassionate and helpful. if you see someone stumble, you offer them a hand.

now Joe Blow comes along, sees the fellow ahead of him stumble, and simply goes on his way. he says, "I'm not of the herd." as pointed out in the Rand thread, certain philosophies seem to appeal to those who believe themselves special, 'above the herd' ([way] above average). yet they aren't.

every deluded narcissist thinks this way, as for instance, a very mediocre hack writer, who, shall we say, ignores others and even her family because --she says-- of her 'higher calling.' But she's Danielle Steele, not George Eliot.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

That is an example of the main reason for the herd instinct: fear. Nietzsche was correct in that regard. "Fear of your neighbor" has much more to do with it than love of one's neighbor. Hence the emasculating effect of herd morality. Hence their opposition to the death penalty or harsh sentences. Hence their support for gun control. You have heard their bleating: we don't want THAT kind of society! Or, as Nietzsche so eloquently put it, "We wish that there were no longer anything to fear!"

The problem with this is that it enables people to stifle dissent and creativity, as well as making it easier for criminals to mistreat the herd, like wolves would. Making them harmless isn't enough.

To me, it is best to leave herd moralists to their pastures and adopt my own morality, based on other ideas. That doesn't exclude pity. It just becomes a different kind of quality, as Nietzsche also noted in "Beyond Good And Evil". They can do as they please. I will let them graze while I hunt. If they choose to isolate me for it, as Nietzsche warned that they might, then that is the sacrifice that I must make for my independence. Such is my choice. It puts me in the noble company of Socrates, Diogenes, and Galileo.

 

[Pure]

the noble company of Socrates, Diogenes, and Galileo.

i don't doubt that, sev.

but, supposing Ms Steel withdrew from some of her 'social obligations' and, when asked, explained she was in the noble company of Shakespeare, Milton, and Goethe?


----
though it doesn't asnwer the question, i like your posting. it shows an excellent grasp of a point N's attackers often miss, in saying he's an admirer of Mussolini: in extolling the creators [overmen], N does generally say, 'leave the herd to itself' (as opposed to 'slaughter it' or 'kill the Jewish members of it.)

 

[Selena_Kitt]

"Fear of your neighbor" has much more to do with it than love of one's neighbor.

we are either doing fear, or we are doing love...

Nietzsche thought god was dead because he believed he WAS god at some level... which was true... he hit the tree, but missed the target... we are all god, but we are not gods...

 

[Pure]

Hi Selena,

Whether N believed he was God 'at some level,' I have no idea. There were late self references in his notes, some of which he signed "Dionysos" or "The Crucified."

Have you read him at all?

===
SK:
Nietzsche thought god was dead because he believed he WAS god at some level... which was true... he hit the tree, but missed the target... we are all god, but we are not gods...

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Have you read him at all?

Not extensively. College philosophy... and I was a freshman at that, so I was, what, all of 18/19? Although I was a more studious student than most... I hate the taste of alcohol, I admit it now... lol

but you know me, Pure, I'm going to look at his psyche before his "philosophy"... much more interesting to me!

 

[Pure]

well, then, perhaps you will check out a biography of him, e.g., by R. Hollingdale?

{{other good bios are those by Curtis Cate {on N's day to day life}, and by Lesley Chamberlain}}

---
but you know me, Pure, I'm going to look at his psyche before his "philosophy"... much more interesting to me!

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

the noble company of Socrates, Diogenes, and Galileo.

i don't doubt that, sev.

but, supposing Ms Steel withdrew from some of her 'social obligations' and, when asked, explained she was in the noble company of Shakespeare, Milton, and Goethe?


----
though it doesn't asnwer the question, i like your posting. it shows an excellent grasp of a point N's attackers often miss, in saying he's an admirer of Mussolini: in extolling the creators [overmen], N does generally say, 'leave the herd to itself' (as opposed to 'slaughter it' or 'kill the Jewish members of it.)

I'm curious as to what "social obligations" you mean? Usually, only the true "Overmen" have the courage to "leave the herd to itself". I thought that my post answered it fairly well, albeit in a oblique manner.

And SK, Nietzsche's psyche always seems to me to be that of a hermit, fundamentally. He was a bit of a loner. Very few of his marriage proposals were taken seriously, aside from his inventive, but ultimately rejected proposal to Lou Salome. Some believe that this was due to his having contracted syphilis in a brothel. I doubt that the man ever got up the nerve to visit one, myself. He was shy and reserved in private, from my understanding. He was also half-blind at times, with severe headaches, and he was probably a workaholic, sublimating sex into work. It was in writing and expounding ideas that he showed his strength of will and formidable intellect. His work WAS his life. He was a classical case of a misanthropic genius. His later insanity was probably more due to being overworked and mentally exhausted, contrary to the school of thought that his own philosophy was a factor in his mental breakdown.

P.S. Nietzsche was probably one of the first people to ever suggest the idea of a temporary, or "trial", marriage, to determine long-term compatibility for a more permanent relationship. He was also a complete teetotaler, which reflected on his attitude about alcohol.

 

[Pure]

A little bit of a bio of N's later years as a writer

Nietzsche, for health reasons, retired from his professorship (in ancient linguistics) to live in lodging houses, in the Italian Alps (clean, pure air), and continue his writing.


http://www.newstatesman.com/Bookshop/300000064249

From John Gray's review of Curtis Cates' _Nietzsche_

One of the delights of this book [by Cates] is its delicate description of the minutiae of Nietzsche's daily routine. Writing of his time in Sils-Maria, where he rented a "resin-scented, pine-panelled" room above the Alpine village's only grocer's, Cate recounts how, after rising while the dawn sky was still grey, Nietzsche would spend each day walking until 11am.

After a short break, he would walk again, for another two hours, through the nearby forest or to Lake Sils, jotting down his thoughts in a notebook as he went along.

After a late lunch of beefsteak and an "unbelievable" quantity of fruit, he would set out again on an even longer walk - "dressed in a long and somewhat threadbare brown jacket, and armed as usual with notebook, pencil and a large grey-green parasol to shade his eyes" - that sometimes took him as far as a mountain glacier.

"Returning 'home' between four and five o'clock, he would immediately get back to work, sustaining himself on biscuits, peasant bread, honey (sent from Naumburg), fruit and pots of tea he brewed for himself in the little upstairs 'dining room' next to his bedroom, until, worn out, he snuffed out his candle and went to bed around 11pm."

Nietzsche's monkish peregrinations serve as a clue in interpreting this unworldly thinker. He seems to have come closest to happiness when he was alone. Though he needed friends, and attracted several who remained loyal to him throughout his breakdown and subsequent decline, few, if any, of Nietzsche's human contacts were successful from his point of view.

 

[Pure]

A pastime of Nietzsche's

was not unlike that of many posters: look to motivation.

he conceived of ordinary morality,esp. Xtian, as rooted in resentment*.

heard of the Xtian hymn:

If I get to Heaven, before you do;
I'll drill a hole, and spit on you.

----
any thoughts?

*that motivation would be 'against life'. if it sounds like shades of Ayn Rand, it's because of her wholesale borrowing, one way or t'other, from him.

 

[Pure]

Reason and instinct

N was certainly not an apostle of reason (one thing about him that Rand got correct).

He argued for the primacy of unconscious forces, in a manner not unlike Freud. He respected the 'healthy animal.'

In his study of Greeks, he is famous for overturning a 19th century myth (still alive to today), that the Greeks were of an Appollinian approach, balanced and rational. N pointed out the Dionysian current in Greek thought and culture, and did not devalue it: ecstasy, drunken revelry, coarse sensuality.

Any Dionysians out there?