newbie question

[kimbalee]

Am I allowed to quote song lyrics in a story and post it on here? The story really is centered around it, and doesn't stand on its own without them. I thought I read a story previously that included a passage, but now I'm not sure. I really don't want to violate any copywrite laws, so if someone knows the answer, clue me in. I'm not opposed to including whatever credit I need to, if that is required. Thanks for your help.

 

[DesertPirate]

Take a look at the El Paso stories from last year. Or the ones based on Maggi May. There are quotes all around so seeing the proper way is easy. Most are atributed at either the beginning or the end of the story. Jake Rivers is the closest to an expert we have.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Am I allowed to quote song lyrics in a story and post it on here? The story really is centered around it, and doesn't stand on its own without them. I thought I read a story previously that included a passage, but now I'm not sure. I really don't want to violate any copywrite laws, so if someone knows the answer, clue me in. I'm not opposed to including whatever credit I need to, if that is required. Thanks for your help.

Yes, you can quote lyrics from a song. The rule of thumb is that you can't use more that 50% of the song.

You need to use credits. You are borrowing someone else's work, I think it's only common courtesy to acknowledge the writer of the song.

 

[kimbalee]

Yes, you can quote lyrics from a song. The rule of thumb is that you can't use more that 50% of the song.

You need to use credits. You are borrowing someone else's work, I think it's only common courtesy to acknowledge the writer of the song.

Shit, I used everything but one line from it. Might have to do a rewrite now. Should have looked into it first, huh? Thanks for the info.

 

[sr71plt]

There are no hard and fast "knowns" on this question, because copyright law doesn't give hard figures on what is permitted and so few cases have actually gone to court (which gives you some sort of idea what you can get away with on nonprofit use if you don't want to be sticky about keeping in bounds on copyright law). But the rule of thumb that publishers use to keep from being sued is "As a general rule, one should never quote more than a few contiguous paragraphs of prose or lines of poetry at a time or let the quotations, even if scattered, begin to overshadow the quoter's own material." (Chicago Manual of Style 4.77.)

On the question of what would be too much to use from the total work, all of the publishers I work for have "no more that 10 percent of the original," with the total percentage going down and the length of the quoted work goes up, in their guidelines--certainly nothing like 50 percent.

If what you are writing is a literary criticism of the work, you are given more leeway on how much you can quote (since the whole purpose of your work is to analyze their work). As a practical matter, the amount you can get away with using also is dependent on how much profit your work is making (if nothing, it's a lot less likely they will sue as the court will expect them to demonstrate real damage done). You might note, however, that almost all of the copyright violation cases that have gone to court have concerned the use of song lyrics.

 

[DesertPirate]

Shit, I used everything but one line from it. Might have to do a rewrite now. Should have looked into it first, huh? Thanks for the info.

Follow Drks advice he is a sharp cookie

 

[sr71plt]

Follow Drks advice he is a sharp cookie

With an eye on my pocketbook, I'd at least want to see some documentation backing up any advice given here that might affect my pocketbook. But that's just me, of course.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

With an eye on my pocketbook, I'd at least want to see some documentation backing up any advice given here that might affect my pocketbook. But that's just me, of course.

My advice was given by what Laurel has allowed in the past at Lit. There was a thread last year that dealt with posting lyrics, and poetry in stories at Lit. That's where the 50% came from.

The best advice I give you regarding posting at Lit is to send Laurel a PM and get a definitive answer.

 

[sr71plt]

The best advice I give you regarding posting at Lit is to send Laurel a PM and get a definitive answer.

I'd agree that this would be the best action to take for what you post at Lit. The Web site is equally reponsible for what gets posted if anything went to court.

 

[kimbalee]

(ducks and covers)

My advice was given by what Laurel has allowed in the past at Lit. There was a thread last year that dealt with posting lyrics, and poetry in stories at Lit. That's where the 50% came from.

The best advice I give you regarding posting at Lit is to send Laurel a PM and get a definitive answer.

Okay, I am so new that...please don't flame me...I don't know who Laurel is. I need some help here. This is the first time I have even been on the forums side. I might just have to scrap it because I have used every single line but one.

 

[neonlyte]

Laurel is the webmistress. PM her, don't e-mail. You can PM her from one of her posts at the top of the AH Forum.

 

[kimbalee]

thanks

thanks for the info, I'll post back with the reply I get so others will know, too.

 

[kimbalee]

okay

Take a look at the El Paso stories from last year. Or the ones based on Maggi May. There are quotes all around so seeing the proper way is easy. Most are atributed at either the beginning or the end of the story. Jake Rivers is the closest to an expert we have.

sent a pm to laurel, and now off to read Jake River's stuff

 

[Boxlicker101]

When you submit the story, you might include the question in the "Notes" section. I have quoted fromsongs ocasionally, but never more than a few lines. I haven't credited the writer, but I have mentioned the recording artist, such as Barry White or Elvis.

 

[gauchecritic]

By the looks of it, if you go by SRs quote then there isn't any real way the poem can overshadow the body of work.

50 words of poetry in a text of two or three thousand is going to be difficult to substantiate as overshadowing.

Be sure to give proper acknowledgement.

Not exactly sliding chapters into your 'own' work is it?

 

[kimbalee]

By the looks of it, if you go by SRs quote then there isn't any real way the poem can overshadow the body of work.

50 words of poetry in a text of two or three thousand is going to be difficult to substantiate as overshadowing.

Be sure to give proper acknowledgement.

Not exactly sliding chapters into your 'own' work is it?

Okay, so the word count is: 447 in the song that I have used, and 3908 of my own, so the total work is roughly 10% song, and 90% mine. It is glaringly clear, however, by the characters' actions, that they are being spurred along by the song.

 

[sr71plt]

By the looks of it, if you go by SRs quote then there isn't any real way the poem can overshadow the body of work.

50 words of poetry in a text of two or three thousand is going to be difficult to substantiate as overshadowing.

Be sure to give proper acknowledgement.

Not exactly sliding chapters into your 'own' work is it?

The quote I provided is only one side of the issue--it addresses how much of the new work could safely consist of quotes of another work, not what percentage of the other work could be safely quoted (which is the 50 percent and 10 percent, respectively, that DarkSide and I shoved out there as advised limits).

Unfortunately, how much you use is, in reality, based on how much risk you are willing to bear. There's nothing in current U.S. (or international, for that matter) Copyright law that says you can quote anything at all from another work without written permission of the copyright owner that would avoid the possibility that the copyright owner might sue you. The upside is that almost no one has ever been sued for this--and most of the cases that exist are where big bucks or significant reputations are involved.

In my first-instance response to this question, I tried to point to the unlikelihood that anyone would sue over use in a story posted here no matter how much of it you used, as long as the Web site (which is equally responsible for whatever is posted here) was willing to accept the risk of possible prosecution along with you. This, as DarkSide noted, makes what the Web site will tolerate the controlling answer to this question as long as the author is willing to accept the (very low) risk as well.

The only section of current Copyright law that addresses the proportion of material that can be quoted at all is the Fair Use section, and I will quote below from the U.S. Copyright Office Web site at www.copyright.gov FAQ statement on that issue. But before I do that, I'll note that a story posted to Literotica does not come under the provisions of Fair Use--so, again, there are no protections from possible suit if you quote any of another published source work at all--just probabilities and risks (both very low).

"How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?

"Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians."

So, whatever risk you and the Web site are willing to take. As I noted, most mainline publishers will not take on a risk of more than 10 percent of the original source work--and the quote I gave from the Chicago Manual of Style gives the industry standard, as well, of not quoting more than a couple of lines of a poem or song lyric or more than a couple of paragraphs of prose in contiguous quotes.

The only instance that a mainline publisher would go over the 10 percent of total wordage used is if the new work was a detailed literary criticism of the quoted work. When I've edited academic books, I've occasionally had to count words to ensure the percentage was not going over the 10 percent.

 

[glynndah]

A welcome for the little newbie from the good little witch.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

When I'm not sure, I just always give credit. Make sure you know the artist and writer names, as well as year of release, and the record company.

When in doubt, credit, credit, credit.

 

[fifty5]

Am I allowed to quote song lyrics in a story and post it on here? The story really is centered around it, and doesn't stand on its own without them. I thought I read a story previously that included a passage, but now I'm not sure. I really don't want to violate any copywrite laws, so if someone knows the answer, clue me in. I'm not opposed to including whatever credit I need to, if that is required. Thanks for your help.

In my humble opinion, the tone of the quote is also significant. If your story is paying respectful homage to the song, then in fact it's advertising that song - promoting it and providing free advertising. As long as it is positive, what's in it for the original author/publisher to challenge your quotations?

Nevertheless, ask Lauren if she'll allow it. Here, that's the bottom line.

 

[sr71plt]

Lol. It's a legal issue, not a preference poll.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Before I forget again, welcome to the AH, Kimbalee. It's a friendly place and we really try to help each other when we can.

Many years ago, I used to hear a song on the radio named "Juke box Saturday Night" in which snippets of songs from various recording artists were included. There was a legal ruling over it, finding that very short passages such as that were legally included. The recording artists were always identified by name.

I don't know if that ruling would cover this or not. There have been similar recordings since then, but I don't remember their names.

 

[kimbalee]

(warm & fuzzy feelings while sick and at hame again)

Before I forget again, welcome to the AH, Kimbalee. It's a friendly place and we really try to help each other when we can.

Hey, how sweet! Thanks for the welcome, and Glynndah, too. Also, thanksto all who have weighed on this and not left me hangin'.. I appreciate your input. So I read a few of Jake Rivers and DGHear stories last night and well, mine just has way more of the song in it. I'm still waiting to hear from Laurel, but I don't think it's gonna make it on here. Not that I blame them.

I did have another question though, how do we get away with using celebrity status? Isn't the personality and all it's traits that go along with the persona protected somehow? I would think that would be the artist's creation. Although, they do put themselves out into the public and portray themselves as someone to be idolized or at least revered, right? What better way to pay homage to someone than write a story including them in some hot, steamy, erotic plot?

Okay, so I answered my own question. I went and read the disclaimer at the beginning of the "Celebrity" story section.

 

[sr71plt]

Before I forget again, welcome to the AH, Kimbalee. It's a friendly place and we really try to help each other when we can.

Hey, how sweet! Thanks for the welcome, and Glynndah, too. Also, thanksto all who have weighed on this and not left me hangin'.. I appreciate your input. So I read a few of Jake Rivers and DGHear stories last night and well, mine just has way more of the song in it. I'm still waiting to hear from Laurel, but I don't think it's gonna make it on here. Not that I blame them.

I did have another question though, how do we get away with using celebrity status? Isn't the personality and all it's traits that go along with the persona protected somehow? I would think that would be the artist's creation. Although, they do put themselves out into the public and portray themselves as someone to be idolized or at least revered, right? What better way to pay homage to someone than write a story including them in some hot, steamy, erotic plot?

Okay, so I answered my own question. I went and read the disclaimer at the beginning of the "Celebrity" story section.

The policies of this Web site aside, the more public the person, actually the less libel/slander protection they have (your question goes to libel and slander, not to copyright). If they want to protect their name/persona from being used, they have to get it trademarked (which, again, is a different animal than copyright), for which they have to go through a lot of hoops to successfully claim they are a unique marketing venture.

Still, if you put a celebrity into a disreputable situation in a written work that maligns them in a way that they can convince a court is contrary to their character and damaging to their reputation and earning capacity, and they want to sue you (and whatever publisher published it for you), they can possibly win the suit (against both of you).

In deciding what to do, on an ethical level, apply the Golden Rule principle. Put yourself in the role you're putting them into and decide how well you'd like to have that in print and available to your relatives and the reading public.

 

[DG Hear]

Percentages

Am I allowed to quote song lyrics in a story and post it on here? The story really is centered around it, and doesn't stand on its own without them. I thought I read a story previously that included a passage, but now I'm not sure. I really don't want to violate any copywrite laws, so if someone knows the answer, clue me in. I'm not opposed to including whatever credit I need to, if that is required. Thanks for your help.

I have used a number of songs in my stories. Here is my lasy answer from Laurel. This is a direct quote from my PM with her.

"So you know, we're very protective of all creator copyrights - including both authors on our site and elsewhere - which is why we're careful about how much of a copyrighted work can be included in a Lit submission. We're not trying to be a-holes - we're just trying to make sure that no one's artistic toes get stepped on. We generally say 50% for lyrics (and writer credit), but as far as articles goes, we generally would rather you didn't quote more than a few lines.

Even if an article is free to read online, it doesn't mean that the author necessarily wants to reproduced elsewhere without his/her permission."

Hope this helps. To be honest with you, try and keep it even less. Also mention in moderator approx. how much of a song you used. This is a very current email from Laurel.
Sincerely
DG Hear