New York, Late 19th Century

[slyc_willie]

I know the basics. Who was governor, who was President, the basic structure of townships and the level of urban and suburban technology. What I need help with are the fine details. Clothing, language, popular authors and speakers of the time, social fads and movements, etc.

Any information or links would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

What part of the 19th Centruy and what economic level. There was a wide difference from the beginning to the latter part of the century. Also the was a wide difference between the poor and the rich as far as clothing, social gatherings and intellectual persute.

 

[slyc_willie]

What part of the 19th Centruy and what economic level. There was a wide difference from the beginning to the latter part of the century. Also the was a wide difference between the poor and the rich as far as clothing, social gatherings and intellectual persute.

Probably would have helped to be more specific.

The story I have in mind takes place around 1890, in upstate New York. I'm thinking the Elmira/Cornell area (which I know personally).

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Well, to start Look at http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1890-1900&s=3&notword=&f=2

Essentially, women wore long, loose, ankle length skirts, gathered at the waist with a sash or belt, puffed, long sleeved blouses (strips were common), high neck lines and button shoes. The differences between the various social classes was marked not so much by style as by choice of fabrics and workmanship, ie upper class women may have worn silk while lower classes wore cotten.

The class distinction was much more pronounced among the men. While the affluent wore woolen, molehair or such suites with derbys or boaters, bow ties or cravates, starched shirts (white) with detached collars, vests and slender-legged trousers, the lower classes wore mostly rough woolen trousers and cotten shirts, buttoned to the throat.

I'll keep looking.

 

[slyc_willie]

Well, to start Look at http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1890-1900&s=3&notword=&f=2

Essentially, women wore long, loose, ankle length skirts, gathered at the waist with a sash or belt, puffed, long sleeved blouses (strips were common), high neck lines and button shoes. The differences between the various social classes was marked not so much by style as by choice of fabrics and workmanship, ie upper class women may have worn silk while lower classes wore cotten.

The class distinction was much more pronounced among the men. While the affluent wore woolen, molehair or such suites with derbys or boaters, bow ties or cravates, starched shirts (white) with detached collars, vests and slender-legged trousers, the lower classes wore mostly rough woolen trousers and cotten shirts, buttoned to the throat.

I'll keep looking.

I appreciate it. I've been reading some of Caleb Carr's work, which takes place in the mid-1890s. Very helpful for some of the seedier aspects of society at the time.

What I'm looking at now is the history of Genesee and the Thousand Islands. Some unexpectedly interesting events of the time frame I'm looking at.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Among the upper classes, the opera was the entertainment du jure. French wine and heavy, rich meals tended to lead to a physique that today would be considered obese and unhealthy. Folks back then thought it was respectable.

I commend to your reading, if you can find it, a really fun book entitled Father Was a Gourmet.

 

[slyc_willie]

Among the upper classes, the opera was the entertainment du jure. French wine and heavy, rich meals tended to lead to a physique that today would be considered obese and unhealthy. Folks back then thought it was respectable.

I commend to your reading, if you can find it, a really fun book entitled Father Was a Gourmet.

I was hoping you'd weigh in here, VM.

My characters are mainly rural or small town folk, though the principals (some of them) are more worldly in their experience.

 

[3113]

This should help you cover clothing: Victorian Fashion Links

This might help you in general.

And here's a great place for food, manners, etc.

You'll have to navigate your way to the right time period on these sites (sorry, but they're usually "Victorian" taking up that whole long period, rarely just 1880's) but luckily for you things changed slower then then they do now. So what was true in 1870 might still be true into the 80's like manners or menus (especially if you're out west or in a small town rather than East or in a city)--outside of the very wealthy who always set the trends and change the fashions.

 

[slyc_willie]

This should help you cover clothing: Victorian Fashion Links

This might help you in general.

And here's a great place for food, manners, etc.

You'll have to navigate your way to the right time period on these sites (sorry, but they're usually "Victorian" taking up that whole long period, rarely just 1880's) but luckily for you things changed slower then then they do now. So what was true in 1870 might still be true into the 80's like manners or menus (especially if you're out west or in a small town rather than East or in a city)--outside of the very wealthy who always set the trends and change the fashions.

Ah. Nice links, Elle. And good point about trend-setting. Even the country bumpkins would want to emulate the fashions of the wealthy, right?

Off to do more reading . . . .

 

[3113]

My characters are mainly rural or small town folk, though the principals (some of them) are more worldly in their experience.

Useful. This means that you can make them have the manners, vocabulary, clothes that are ten years or older out of date for the city. What you grew up with in a small town or farming community often stayed the same. People from cities would feel like they were going back in time when visiting such places, places that might not have changed since the civil war in regards to fashions, manners, speech, technology, etc.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I just checked abebooks.com. That title must have been very popular. There 29 copies up for sale from $4.40 to $23.00. Enjoy.

 

[3113]

Ah. Nice links

Yeah, there's one there among the "general" about what American Kids were reading in 1870. That should inform you about some of your characters--the literate ones that is

 

[slyc_willie]

Useful. This means that you can make them have the manners, vocabulary, clothes that are ten years or older out of date for the city. What you grew up with in a small town or farming community often stayed the same. People from cities would feel like they were going back in time when visiting such places, places that might not have changed since the civil war in regards to fashions, manners, speech, technology, etc.

Considering the amount of trade going through upstate New York after the Eerie Canal was finished, I don't think it would be unreasonable that a fairly good-sized township (maybe just a few thousand people) was kept up-to-date on recent trends. I don't want to portray the country bumpkins just as, well, country bumpkins.

Yeah, there's one there among the "general" about what American Kids were reading in 1870. That should inform you about some of your characters--the literate ones that is

I'll definitely look at that. And thanks for bringing up the literacy issue.

I just checked abebooks.com. That title must have been very popular. There 29 copies up for sale from $4.40 to $23.00. Enjoy.

I think I'll look that up. Thanks, VM.

 

[3113]

Considering the amount of trade going through upstate New York after the Eerie Canal was finished, I don't think it would be unreasonable that a fairly good-sized township (maybe just a few thousand people) was kept up-to-date on recent trends. I don't want to portray the country bumpkins just as, well, country bumpkins.

I'll definitely look at that. And thanks for bringing up the literacy issue.

Ah, well, if they're just outside of New York City that's different (sorry, I didn't quite get that from your first post, I thought these folk were coming from elsewhere to NY). That sort of township is not only going to have connections with what's coming over from Europe (abet second-hand), but as you say, upscale folk living in big houses on the hill who will want to be as trendy and up-to-date as their counterparts in the big city (someone's gotta be the richest man in town, with the richest wife and children). Most of the town is likely to be literate as well at least to a 3rd-6th grade level. Books were popular in the U.S. but still an expensive commodity. On the other hand, Ben Franklin was the one who started up the first lending library in Philly; a very American thing, libraries.

 

[slyc_willie]

Ah, well, if they're just outside of New York City that's different (sorry, I didn't quite get that from your first post, I thought these folk were coming from elsewhere to NY). That sort of township is not only going to have connections with what's coming over from Europe (abet second-hand), but as you say, upscale folk living in big houses on the hill who will want to be as trendy and up-to-date as their counterparts in the big city (someone's gotta be the richest man in town, with the richest wife and children). Most of the town is likely to be literate as well at least to a 3rd-6th grade level. Books were popular in the U.S. but still an expensive commodity. On the other hand, Ben Franklin was the one who started up the first lending library in Philly; a very American thing, libraries.

The basic gist of the plot is something along the order of Brotherhood of the Wolf. I want that same basic feel, the same atmosphere. A monster terrorizing the community, and the mayor of the town puts out a call for "those brave of heart and adept of skill" to come and slay the beast so that it will threaten the people no more.

In that vein, the main character is some kind of learned naturalist, hunter, and philosopher. Sort of like a young Teddy Roosevelt. But there are rivals, in the form of a Frenchman, a Pennsylvanian Dutch hunter, etc.

 

[3113]

Essentially, women wore long, loose, ankle length skirts, gathered at the waist with a sash or belt, puffed, long sleeved blouses (strips were common), high neck lines and button shoes. The differences between the various social classes was marked not so much by style as by choice of fabrics and workmanship, ie upper class women may have worn silk while lower classes wore cotten.

Actually there was a very distinct difference between lower and upper class style. The 1880 was the era of the bustle. This is when the bustle got so ridiculous that cartoonists made fun it. Like it was a caboose, or that one could serve tea on it.

This is 1885:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Bustle.png/259px-Bustle.png

No poor woman, working as many of them did, would have a bustle. And middle class probably would go for smaller versions. Of course, the rich, as well, wore smaller versions for, say, day dresses. This was a time when a rich woman might change clothes three times in a day.

Edited to add this quote about the 1880's bustle:

During the early 1880s, panniers and other skirt draperies became more bouffant, especially behind, and the bustle soon returned to underpin this silhoutte. The elegant domed effect did not return with the new bustle; instead a shelf began to protrude horizontally behind. There were numerous cartoon allusions to tea-trays and the resting of tea-cups thereon, but the new bustle persisted until the end of the 1880s. This shelf-like bustle was often created by a couple of steel bands inserted into the underskirt of the dress itself, though it could also be a separate bustle underskirt.

I adore this image painted by Sargent of a woman in 1884:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Sargent_MadameX.jpeg/306px-Sargent_MadameX.jpeg

I'm getting this info from here. As you'll notice that nice tight corsets are still in vogue, by the 1880 most were made of spring steel. By the way, it isn't true that women had ribs removed to get smaller waists, and in fact most corsets only got women's waists down to 20" or maybe 18". But they did cause fainting among the upper class ladies wearing them because they constricted everything including the lungs. Within a warm ballroom, and after a few exhasting waltzes, a delicate lady who had not eaten much might well feel faint.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Useful. This means that you can make them have the manners, vocabulary, clothes that are ten years or older out of date for the city. What you grew up with in a small town or farming community often stayed the same. People from cities would feel like they were going back in time when visiting such places, places that might not have changed since the civil war in regards to fashions, manners, speech, technology, etc.

BULLSHIT.

The humble Country Mouse read catalogues and newspapers and other periodical literature, and kept up with fashion. What in Hell do you suppose women did all winter out in Nebraska and Kansas? They spent their hog and corn money on fabric and mail-order. It was the hay-day of Sears & Roebuck, Montgomery Ward, and J.C.Penny.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

As an aside, Sarah Bernhardt was the queen of the stage during the 1890s through 1900 in New York. This was true drama on stage.

The middle class found their entertainment at the Vaudville shows. These always had comics, jugglers (William C. Dukenfield AKA WC Fields started there in the mid 1890s as a juggler, for instance), as well as dancing girls. In addition, vaudville acted as a sort of community gathering place.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

As an aside, Sarah Bernhardt was the queen of the stage during the 1890s through 1900 in New York. This was true drama on stage.

The middle class found their entertainment at the Vaudville shows. These always had comics, jugglers (William C. Dukenfield AKA WC Fields started there in the mid 1890s as a juggler, for instance), as well as dancing girls. In addition, vaudville acted as a sort of community gathering place.

Though the Golden Age of Burlesque didn't begin until 1900, traveling shows featuring scantily clad dancing girls and bawdy comics were already sweeping the country and packing theaters before the Civil War. They were not just a feature of the biggest cities, either. Your trading city on the Erie Canal would have been a regular stopping point for such fare. Good place for some comic relief?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Though the Golden Age of Burlesque didn't begin until 1900, traveling shows featuring scantily clad dancing girls and bawdy comics were already sweeping the country and packing theaters before the Civil War. They were not just a feature of the biggest cities, either. Your trading city on the Erie Canal would have been a regular stopping point for such fare. Good place for some comic relief?

Vaudville and Berlesque were really two different things. Vaudville began as a traveling show but held long engagements in the larger, cheap theaters in the largest cities. The entertainment was mostly short plays, comic sketches and a choras line.

Berlesque was a theater specific venue which centered around the dancing girls who stripped. The "baggy pants" comics were only comic relief.

 

[3113]

Here's some quick and interesting facts of that decade:

1880 — The United States has about 50,000 telephones
1880 — On January 27th, Thomas Edison received the historic patent embodying the principles of his incandescent lamp that paved the way for the universal domestic use of electric light.
1880 — Helen Adams Keller was born on June 27th at Tuscumbia, Alabama (First child of Kate Adams Keller & Captain Arthur Keller)
1881 — The Los Angeles Times is first published
1883 — Thomas Edison invents the light bulb
1883 — Buffalo Bill Cody opens his Wild West show
1884 — Mark Twain completes Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
1885 — Fingerprints are used for identification
1885 — U.S. Post Office offers Special Delivery
1886 — The Statue of Liberty was dedicated in New York Harbor on October 28th
1888 — The Kodak box camera was offered for sale for $25, taking 100 pictures on a roll
1888 — A new magazine called National Geographic was first published
1889 — Coin-operated phonographs are placed in bars, arcades, the first jukeboxes

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Vaudville and Berlesque were really two different things. Vaudville began as a traveling show but held long engagements in the larger, cheap theaters in the largest cities. The entertainment was mostly short plays, comic sketches and a choras line.

Berlesque was a theater specific venue which centered around the dancing girls who stripped. The "baggy pants" comics were only comic relief.

That's backwards. According to Ann Corio, a very famous stripper of the mid-XX century, the first American striptease can't be dated any earlier than 1908. In the period we're looking at, burlesque was a recognized variant of vaudeville. The dancing girls kept their (reasonably revealing) clothes on and the center stage was held by the comics, like Weber & Fields or Ryan & Mills.

cf. Corio, Ann. This Was Burlesque. Grosset Dunlap, NY, 1968.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

That's backwards. According to Ann Corio, a very famous stripper of the mid-XX century, the first American striptease can't be dated any earlier than 1908. In the period we're looking at, burlesque was a recognized variant of vaudeville. The dancing girls kept their (reasonably revealing) clothes on and the center stage was held by the comics, like Weber & Fields or Ryan & Mills.

cf. Corio, Ann. This Was Burlesque. Grosset Dunlap, NY, 1968.

Still, vaudville came first as a traveling show. Each had a somewhat different venue. Then burlesque came afterwards and dominated theaters for long periods through 1932.

 

[3113]

And don't forget Gilbert and Sullivan. An "unauthorized version of Gilbert and Sullivan’s HMS Pinafore premiered in the United States in 1878, the craze known as "Pinafore-Mania" quickly swept the nation" and "Unauthorized companies toured the show all over the country, with several troupes playing simultaneously in New York."

Whatever came out from these two during that time, it arrived in the U.S. likely within a year, authorized or not, and touring all over.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

And don't forget Gilbert and Sullivan. In 1878, an "unauthorized version of Gilbert and Sullivan’s HMS Pinafore premiered in the United States in 1878, the craze known as "Pinafore-Mania" quickly swept the nation" and "Unauthorized companies toured the show all over the country, with several troupes playing simultaneously in New York."

Whatever came out from these two during that time, it arrived in the U.S. likely within a year, authorized or not, and touring all over.

Ah, yes. G&S. Those are still the only operas I'll leave the powersaw for. Love 'em.