New Punctuation Marks

dr_mabeuse

seduce the mind
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
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Reading Alex de Kok's puntuation problem thread made me think again of how limited a writer's resources are when it comes to representing speech nuance. We have, what? maybe half a dozen accepted punctuation marks we can use in writing to explain the way something is said. In music they have dozens. In writing big band jazz there are probably about 2-3 dozen marks that tell the player how to attack, hold, and release a note.

The last attempt I can remember to add a new punctuation mark was the interrobang: the combined exclamation point/question mark that was supposed to be used for things like "What the hell?!" It was a failure. But why shouldn't we start creating our own punctuation marks?

For instance, Alex asked about how you could show someone suddenly stooping a sentence in the middle, as if he were suddenly aware that someone were eavesdropping. He used a space-dash-space to show the cut off, like:

"So I told him - " he said, "Well, never mind what I told him."

What about using a double slash: //

"So I told him //" he said, "Well, never mind what I told him."

Or what about the situation where a character doesn't know what to say? In Japanese comics I've seen "..." or maybe even "...!" to show a character being struck speechless.

I know, this rapidly gets Borge-esque, as when a character is sputtering with rage, not knowing what to say first:

"!//...//...!//"

but think of the possibilities: heavy lustful breathing:

"Oh baby! $$$ I like what you're doing! $$$"

To denote that kind of panting greed.

I think it's a great idea and I'm open to suggestions.

---dr.M.
 
In the US, it's become common for people, especially adolescents, to aply the rising inflection of a question to statements of fact. It's usually used when recounting a story, and seems to be am inflectional gesture meant to ellicit confirmation of understanding from the listern:

"So then I talked to my mom? And she said like I couldn't go? So then my brother? He's like 18 and he's been there already?" etc etc.

These are statements with the inflection of a question. The obvious punctuation is the "queriod": ?.

"So then I talked to my mom?. And she said like I couldn't go?. etc."


Remember the old sign for someone being crazy? Putting your finger by your head and revolving it to show that someone's screwy?. Well, the @ kind of looks like that screwy spiral, so this could be the punctuation mark that shows sarcasm or doubts about someone's sanity:

"Oh sure, Ronald@ Cabbage-flavored chewing gum is a great idea@"

Well, what do you think?

(Yeah Dr.M.@ This punctuation thing is really a great idea too@)

---dr.M.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
the interrobang: the combined exclamation point/question mark that was supposed to be used for things like "What the hell?!"

Dear Dr M,
I like the 'interrobang.' I think it's sometimes used in things like comic strips and should be more widely used in writing. If I ever write anything again, I'm going to try it out.
MG
Ps. I think the adolescent ending of a declarative statement with a question mark is just dumb and should be ignored. Like, you know?
 
Clausal intonation markers.

== Put the knife down.

^^ That's outrageous.

\\ I give up.

// Are you nuts?

** Come here now.

~~ Johnny is a virgin.

&& One last question before I go.

$$ And it's all mine.
 
Noveau punctuation

Dear RS,
I like those. We might also borrow from Spanish and put some punctuations both before and after a sentence:
E.g. !Up yours!
That would eliminate the gauche use of more than one exclamation at the end of the sentence.
Diacritically,
MG
 
The teen rising intonation is not quite a question, but it deserves to be represented Maybe. "Like I saw this guy^. And he was, like, wearing these neat jeans^."

Isn't it called 'valley girl talk'--(SF, that is), made famous by Zappa et al?

gag me with a spoon

J.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
Reading Alex de Kok's puntuation problem thread made me think again of how limited a writer's resources are when it comes to representing speech nuance. We have, what? maybe half a dozen accepted punctuation marks we can use in writing to explain the way something is said. In music they have dozens. In writing big band jazz there are probably about 2-3 dozen marks that tell the player how to attack, hold, and release a note.
---dr.M.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here! I think we have quite enough punctuation marks, particularly as these nuances can be described in the text: and, to be honest, are often social, rather than literary clues. If these particular speech habits die out, or are replaced by others, you then suddenly date your writing and reduce it's universality.

The other problem is that some 50% or more readers haven't a clue what a colon, semi colon, and question mark are for. I know writers who haven't that same clue: so adding a slew more questionable symbols is equally questionable.

By the way, as a musician, and composer, it is as liberating to ignore the composer's marks, stretching and squashing the tune to make it more/less smoochy, as it is frustrating to have performers ignore ones crucial and vitally important markings.

AG
 
I'm with ag2507. I think the above suggestions are fun for personal use, but I like working within the bounds of convention and figuring out how to express the mundane and profound with established words and ordinary punctuation. I use as models the best writers (most dead as I read little contemp stuff except for fun; even Joyce is still too modern for me at times).

When I studied classical ballet I learned how much freedom of beauty and artistic expression can be found within a strict structure of technique; it's why I can watch the same ballet over and over by the same or different dancers (same for opera and classical music performances, or productions of Shakespeare's plays).

Just my preference. Perdita
 
You know this is a rad idea. Like you know dr_m you are one cool dude. The English language is like you know...kinda boring.
 
I guess we've already got new punctuation marks: smileys.

They're great if you don't mind your stuff looking like it was written by an adolescent girl who dots her i's with little hearts.

Right now though I can see that we badly need a new mark that tells people when proposals are meant to be taken less than seriously.

No one wants to play anymore?


---dr.M.
 
Ascribing various available punctuation signs to unique positions, or adding accents and signs previously used exclusively in mathematical statements, or other foreign languages, is a daring and innovative concept.

The single inherent problem that I foresee, is the problem of educating millions of already literate readers into this new form of literacy.

You will not only have your work cut out communicating the key to this new dramatic inflection guide.

You will also be hard pressed to develop sufficient stories that truly require such an inflection scheme, in order to justify its initiation.
 
OUT WITH THE OLD:

'Excuse me, this will sound like I'm chatting you up, but I promise you I'm not. I'm a professional photographer, and I thought you'd make a good model.'

Marly put her wine down and her face frosted over with suspicion.

IN WITH THE NEW:

<speech voice=male age=45..55 tone=serious>Excuse me, this will sound like I'm chatting you up, but I promise you I'm not. I'm a professional photographer, and I thought you'd make a good model.<voice>

<personal_name sex=female index=1>Marly</personal_name> put <anaphor index=1>her</anaphor> wine down and <anaphor index=1>her</anaphor> face frosted over with suspicion.

</irony>
 
I pretty much have my own punctuation mark. Whenever I type something that isn't meant to be taken seriously or is sarcastic, I usually add :D at the end. It's my 'taking the piss' mark.

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
I pretty much have my own punctuation mark. Whenever I type something that isn't meant to be taken seriously or is sarcastic, I usually add :D at the end. It's my 'taking the piss' mark.

The Earl

If that's the case, it's a terrible pity we don't have a 'puddle' icon available for your use. :D

Piss marks can make a place look so tacky :eek:
 
perdita said:
I'm with ag2507. I think the above suggestions are fun for personal use, but I like working within the bounds of convention and figuring out how to express the mundane and profound with established words and ordinary punctuation. I use as models the best writers (most dead as I read little contemp stuff except for fun; even Joyce is still too modern for me at times).

When I studied classical ballet I learned how much freedom of beauty and artistic expression can be found within a strict structure of technique; it's why I can watch the same ballet over and over by the same or different dancers (same for opera and classical music performances, or productions of Shakespeare's plays).

Just my preference. Perdita

Thank you Pertida (though I look for a Pongo). I am quite jealous as you have by far the better opera & ballet companies on your coast: I am appaled by the low standards and lack of creativity on this coast. I blanr the ghastly architecture thet have to perform in...

AG
 
Rainbow Skin said:
OUT WITH THE OLD:

'Excuse me, this will sound like I'm chatting you up, but I promise you I'm not. I'm a professional photographer, and I thought you'd make a good model.'

Marly put her wine down and her face frosted over with suspicion.

IN WITH THE NEW:

<speech voice=male age=45..55 tone=serious>Excuse me, this will sound like I'm chatting you up, but I promise you I'm not. I'm a professional photographer, and I thought you'd make a good model.<voice>

<personal_name sex=female index=1>Marly</personal_name> put <anaphor index=1>her</anaphor> wine down and <anaphor index=1>her</anaphor> face frosted over with suspicion.

</irony>

Hmmm. You illustrate my point exactly: even your xml structure is flawed

<irony> <speech voice=male age=45..55 tone=serious>Excuse me, this will sound like I'm chatting you up, but I promise you I'm not. I'm a professional photographer, and I thought you'd make a good model.</speech>

<personal_name sex=female index=1>Marly</personal_name> put <anaphor index=1>her</anaphor> wine down and <anaphor index=1>her</anaphor> face frosted over with suspicion.
</irony>

And in any case, some of us might prefer <speach/>

And you left all the <er-um/>s and <noise word/> out: Noise words are "like" and a few years ago "youknow"
 
ag2507 said:
I am quite jealous as you have by far the better opera & ballet companies on your coast: I am appaled by the low standards and lack of creativity on this coast. I blanr the ghastly architecture thet have to perform in... AG
AG, I'll have to write you at length PM-wise, you must be quite the critic, i.e. I know Lincoln center sucks architecturally but hey, The Met, etc. (though I'm not a Jas. Levine fan).
---------------

dr. M: Right now though I can see that we badly need a new mark that tells people when proposals are meant to be taken less than seriously.

Mab., re. only your posts, Can't live w/em, can't live w/o em comes to mind.

But I hope taking you seriously is better than not when you really are or seem to be. P.
 
Oh, people sometimes like to put "..." in their story after about every other word...what if we just shorten it to "_"?. Not so many periods around then_at least I wouldn't think so_what do you think?.
 
ag2507 said:
Hmmm. You illustrate my point exactly: even your xml structure is flawed

<speech>

:blush: Quite correct, well spotted. I'll let you into a little secret... I was making it up as I went along.


And in any case, some of us might prefer <speach/>

No! Closing / are the spawn of Satan. Taking HTML away from the users and restricting to a priestly elite. And anyway, you need a space before it.

And </irony> usually doesn't take an opening <irony> tag: if you had to start by tagging it as ironic, it wouldn't be. :)

perdita said:
I know Lincoln center sucks architecturally but hey, The Met, etc. (though I'm not a Jas. Levine fan).

Listening to a lovely Idomeneo from Glyndebourne as we go. Never been; probably will never be able to; but it sounds good.
 
Rainbow Skin said:
No! Closing / are the spawn of Satan. Taking HTML away from the users and restricting to a priestly elite. And anyway, you need a space before it.

Listening to a lovely Idomeneo from Glyndebourne as we go. Never been; probably will never be able to; but it sounds good.

That which thou openst, thou must close. And having someone syntactically having to know what is paired and what is not? Ugh. That is what was wrong with HTML: you had to know the syntax: xml at least is pretty self defining but you do need to know when an element is solo and wqhen it is paired.

BTW: you miss the speach point. And yes, I'm in the wrong place to easily go to Glyndeborne, one of the disadvanteges of living with the <irony> spawn of satan </irony>

AG
 
perdita said:
AG, I'll have to write you at length PM-wise, you must be quite the critic, i.e. I know Lincoln center sucks architecturally but hey, The Met, etc. (though I'm not a Jas. Levine fan).
Enchante
AG
 
Rainbow Skin said:
Clausal intonation markers.

== Put the knife down.

^^ That's outrageous.

\\ I give up.

// Are you nuts?

** Come here now.

~~ Johnny is a virgin.

&& One last question before I go.

$$ And it's all mine.

I love those! I'm writing a play at the moment (yes, amongst the three thousand or so uncompleted pieces of work I never finish because I am always on Lit) and I might employ them to save the actors arguing about the intonation of the lines.

Maybe someone could introduce them into high school Shakespeare, to give the children some guide as to what's going on?

The possibilities are (not literally) endless!
 
Last edited:
cahab said:
Maybe someone could introduce them into high school Shakespeare, to give the childrem some guide as to what's going on?
Cahab: you've hit the wrong chord w/me. No, no, no! Please don't dumb-down Sh're. All anyone needs to appreciate the plays is to be a human being, and if utterly unexposed then a good teacher (or a text w/footnotes will do in a pinch).

Sh're has very little stage direction because it's mostly in the text. Read well one knows what to do on stage including voice use.

Like Maria Callas said re. singing (from my recall): All you have to do is listen to the music. The composer has seen to everything, just listen.

Same for Shakespeare.

End of lecture. Perdita
 
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