New member, looking for feedback

[AstellaJerome]

Hi,

I am a new member looking for feedback on:

Fight Night (ETA: BDSM)

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=337062

Thank you.

 

[cgraven]

Very nice and so subtly erotic. I do believe you captured the moment. Well done Miss.

 

[x_ShimmeR_x]

I actually read this last night, while I was browsing through the new stories. I loved your attention to detail! Nice work.

 

[AstellaJerome]

Thank you, this was my first attempt.

 

[smile_n_laugh]

you have a beautiful knack of expression, keep it up. It is a great talent to be able to describe an event in so many words and keep the reader hooked up.

 

[tickledkitty]

Welcome!

I have good news and bad news for you.

First, the good news. This is very nicely done, especially for a first effort. As has been stated before, you have a nice way with prose and a gift for imagery. Your descriptions are wonderful and detailed. Also, very nice metaphors.

Now the bad news. Writing in first person, present tense is very difficult to pull off. You are narrating in the voice of the female in the story, yet she is telling this man how he feels. She couldn't know that. She could guess but wouldn't know for sure. Also, it would read much easier in past tense. I think it's actually easier to write that way, as well. (It's funny that so many of us start writing this way. I did too.)

I'm a big fan of first person myself. I think it lends intimacy, especially to erotic scenes. The thing to remember is that you can't say how the other person feels or what their motivations are. You can only speak from the narrator's point of view.

Also, this is not really a story. A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. There was no question here that these people were going to have sex. No tension. You can hold the attention of the people who just want a bit of stroke with something like this, but other readers who are looking for plot, character development, etc., will lose interest.

I don't think I'm the best one to explain this, as others on this forum are much more adept. (Paging Jenny Jackson )

Anyway, great start. Best of luck, and I look forward to seeing more from you.

 

[AstellaJerome]

Thanks tickledkitty, for making several observations.

I am interested in catching the attention of those who want a bit of stroke.

 

[tickledkitty]

Thanks tickledkitty, for making several observations.

I am interested in catching the attention of those who want a bit of stroke.

Of course. But why not make it the best stroke possible? Just a thought...

 

[walkerlong]

Yeah

This scene has great detail. I particularly enjoy how you have captured what the woman feels here.

I would agree with the post above to some extent. I think that if you want to write from the point of view of the female, she shouldn't tell us about things that the guy is thinking. Maybe he could say what he's thinking out loud? Or she could remember things he's said in the past?

As for the point of view itself I say if it feels good, do it. Personally, I don't care for second person narration ("You light the cigar.") but that's just a personal preference. I don't care for cigars either. Some people probably think it's great. It does give this story a twist that it otherwise wouldn't have.

 

[AstellaJerome]

It does give this story a twist that it otherwise wouldn't have.

Yeah, I was trying to depict how a true submissive thinks (and to some extent why). To up the ante and demonstrate how she is capable of anticipating his desires and getting her own fulfilled, so instead of engaging in a lot of "she thought that he thought" in the third person, I went for a cleaner and more authoritive first/second person narrative. You win some, you lose some.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Astella, welcome

For a first effort, your work is pretty good, congrats.

I agree with TK, and the public comment, that first/second person, present tense stories are very hard to write well. When you use first person point of view, you cannot be inside the other person's mind. You must write only from 'I's perspective and feelings.

In a thread about the problems of writing second person stories, these two stories came up as examples of how to do it well. Have a look and notice how one-sided they are. 'You' doesn't get a look in.

shopping for sex toys at walmart by glynndah

the second person by impressive

You must keep the focus right. 'You light your cigar' is really third person. To be second person you need to say, 'I watch you light your cigar', similarly, not 'you can see my labia pulsing', rather 'I shiver aware you can see my labia pulsing'.

But, really, to get readers interested, 3rd person and past tense is the best way to start. It also gives the chance for dialogue, which is a way of showing rather than telling

I understand you are wanting to write a stroke piece, but, remember there are thousands of similar pieces on lit and it is hard to see how yours is different. You begin to develop characters near the end when you talk of age difference and so on but this needs to be developed much earlier and much more strongly.

A successful stroke story needs the reader to care enough about the characters to want them to fuck.

You clearly have good promise as a writer and I look forward to reading more from you. Just try to remember the reader is not in your mind and even a first person story must draw them into the passion.

Good luck.

 

[AstellaJerome]

I'm sorry but all this emphasis on character development and caring enough about the characters to want them to fuck is pretty funny.

This is an erotica site, right? not a romance site?

If I've opened an erotic story or am watching some porn, almost everything before contact/penetration is kinda tedious, and since I want to stick myself inside the perspective of one of the people doing the fucking, I really don't want them to have an identity of their own or traits that could prove unappealing and thereby interrupt the verisimilitude.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Astella

Sorry if I misunderstood what you wanted as feedback.

To answer you directly, I find a lot of porn DVDs are too male orientated and are just a tedious rearrangement of the cycle of the combustion engine, 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow'. Surely, there is a limit on how long you can watch a stiff dick pistoning into a female mouth with a hypnotic musack background before you lose the will to live.

Yes, there are a load of good, explicit erotic films and writing out there. Penetration, hardcore sex and exploring fetishes is the predominant feature on Literotica but - and this is a very big but - the sex, porn, erotica, call it what you will, is subsumed into an attempt to have good storytelling, good grammar and good editing. If you like, Lit tries to be the erotic equivalent of the NYT bestsellers list.

A poor thriller will always be a poor thriller, similarly a poor erotic story - stroke, romance or 'literature'.

Your story, though technically quite well written, is not going to get a lot of dicks to stiffen or labias to moisten.

Why? In short, because it is bland, formulaic and we have been there a million times before. I understand you want to explore relationships and tensions, but seriously, you don't even begin toget the dynamic tension - until late on.

And no, without wanting slushy romance, most readers here want a feisty, erotic story that has an event to precipitate the action, foreplay with emotions, then climax and resolution.

You wrote the physical stuff well, but it read like a baseball commentary, and all the erotic tension was ignored. Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, it is just that I think you are writing inside your own head and not for readers.

If you want to see what good Lit stroke stories are like, try Boxlicker.

Hope this helps, but I'd be happy to carry on discussing what makes a good erotic story.

Elle

 

[jomar]

I'm sorry but all this emphasis on character development and caring enough about the characters to want them to fuck is pretty funny.

This is an erotica site, right? not a romance site?

Yes, but you might be surprised. Some just want stroke, but a lot of readers want an actual story. One guy went through my Chase Cooder chapters telling me the sex wasn't hot because the characters didn't have an emotional connection.

 

[AstellaJerome]

To answer you directly, I find a lot of porn DVDs are too male orientated and are just a tedious rearrangement of the cycle of the combustion engine, 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow'.

Your story, though technically quite well written, is not going to get a lot of dicks to stiffen or labias to moisten.

Why? In short, because it is bland, formulaic and we have been there a million times before. I understand you want to explore relationships and tensions, but seriously, you don't even begin toget the dynamic tension - until late on.

And no, without wanting slushy romance, most readers here want a feisty, erotic story that has an event to precipitate the action, foreplay with emotions, then climax and resolution.

You wrote the physical stuff well, but it read like a baseball commentary, and all the erotic tension was ignored. Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, it is just that I think you are writing inside your own head and not for readers.

You are absolutely correct that there is no conflict between the participants in this tale, which is what I think you are suggesting is the standard means of creating erotic tension (?).

The title "Fight Night" is designed to contrast with the complete absence of tension in their relationship, the set-up is meant to demonstrate how the two have formed a pairing in opposition to the world, which is the only place where danger and aggression exist in the story (she has submitted completely in exchange for protection and sacrificed a large part of herself doing that -- he is damaged and only capable of taking the relationship into preliminary emotional intimacy).

I'd be interested if any women were disturbed by the way the female character in the story thinks?

The idea was to depict a relationship missing typical tensions and suggest, only after the reader is surprised by the complete submission of the woman, a motivation for why two people would engage inside these very limited parameters. Honestly, neither "character" is intended to be sympathetic and I can see how that makes it difficult to engage with the tale (although Henry Miller is notoriously unsympathetic and nonetheless engaging and highly erotic, so I guess if I practice real hard, it can be done ;-).

My target for that story is dominant or would-be dominant men, particularly divorced men, and I would appreciating hearing from any who happen to read this. I thank everyone for your feedback though, as it is definitely helping me to formulate ideas for other audiences.

 

[slyc_willie]

There is an audience for any kind of erotic story. Some readers just want you to get to the action, regardless of character development and plot. Others want to be drawn in slowly and made to understand who the characters are.

And then there's the middle ground, in which hot sex and at least semi-real characters meet. There is a story, and there is a believable reason why Jenny wants to fuck Jeff.

A lot of my stories are just about the sex, but I like to think I put enough story into them to explain why the sex is happening. Readers seem to appreciate that, from what I have experienced thus far.

 

[tickledkitty]

You are absolutely correct that there is no conflict between the participants in this tale, which is what I think you are suggesting is the standard means of creating erotic tension (?).

The title "Fight Night" is designed to contrast with the complete absence of tension in their relationship, the set-up is meant to demonstrate how the two have formed a pairing in opposition to the world, which is the only place where danger and aggression exist in the story (she has submitted completely in exchange for protection and sacrificed a large part of herself doing that -- he is damaged and only capable of taking the relationship into preliminary emotional intimacy).

I'd be interested if any women were disturbed by the way the female character in the story thinks?

The idea was to depict a relationship missing typical tensions and suggest, only after the reader is surprised by the complete submission of the woman, a motivation for why two people would engage inside these very limited parameters. Honestly, neither "character" is intended to be sympathetic and I can see how that makes it difficult to engage with the tale (although Henry Miller is notoriously unsympathetic and nonetheless engaging and highly erotic, so I guess if I practice real hard, it can be done ;-).

My target for that story is dominant or would-be dominant men, particularly divorced men, and I would appreciating hearing from any who happen to read this. I thank everyone for your feedback though, as it is definitely helping me to formulate ideas for other audiences.

Yes, but this is all going on inside YOUR head and not being communicated to the reader. Also, you don't really get to pick your audience here. I think targeting dominant/divorced men is too narrow.

Sometimes this negative feedback is hard to take. It takes a while to digest, but then you think about it when you're writing again, and you might be able to use some of it.

 

[mjl2010]

Were this a story I selected looking for something to read, I've have back clicked at the first "You". I hate stories written entirely like this. You, have no idea what I'm feeling or thinking, even if you KNOW me well. Further, your use of the present tense is annoying beyond comprehension.

Yeah, I was trying to depict how a true submissive thinks (and to some extent why). To up the ante and demonstrate how she is capable of anticipating his desires and getting her own fulfilled, so instead of engaging in a lot of "she thought that he thought" in the third person, I went for a cleaner and more authoritive first/second person narrative. You win some, you lose some.

Sorry, but what you ended up with was not cleaner or more authoritative, rather, you ended up with was something that is difficult to read and in no way stimulated me or apparently some of the others here that have graciously used their time to give you what you asked for. Feedback.

At the same time, you're alienating others by arguing with their thoughts on what was wrong with your writing. What you tried to do and what you did do are two different things. Furthermore, there are a lot of people on this site who would be offended by your characterization what a True Submissive is or is not. Frankly, if you story depicts what you think a true submissive is, then yours views do not reflect mine.

You are absolutely correct that there is no conflict between the participants in this tale, which is what I think you are suggesting is the standard means of creating erotic tension (?).

The title "Fight Night" is designed to contrast with the complete absence of tension in their relationship, the set-up is meant to demonstrate how the two have formed a pairing in opposition to the world, which is the only place where danger and aggression exist in the story (she has submitted completely in exchange for protection and sacrificed a large part of herself doing that -- he is damaged and only capable of taking the relationship into preliminary emotional intimacy).

Very well then. But you certainly didn't show this. If you meant to, then great. But you didn't.

I'd be interested if any women were disturbed by the way the female character in the story thinks?

There isn't a story on this site that doesn't disturb some people in some way. I'm sure there are women here who might be disturbed by how she thinks. Did you show us "how she thinks"?

My target for that story is dominant or would-be dominant men, particularly divorced men, and I would appreciating hearing from any who happen to read this. I thank everyone for your feedback though, as it is definitely helping me to formulate ideas for other audiences.

Well there ya go. I'm your dominant man. Not divorced but I've had my share of damaging life experiences. You got me to read it and honestly it wasn't for me. Not the way it was written. Give it a try in third person so I'm not temped to backclick at the beginning of every sentence.

Maybe I've been harsh, but you're just not getting it. Most of this story is second person. Forget it. Second person is for instruction manuals. I'll do this and you'll do that. Leave it for that because that's how your story comes off.

Write your story in third person. That way you can delve into the thoughts of both parties if you wish. I can't see any reason why you couldn't explore the things you claim to have tried to do with this story, and not do it in third person. I think you could and do it a lot better. Give it a shot.

Welcome to Lit.

MJL

 

[AstellaJerome]

I'm not re-writing it in the third person.

 

[mjl2010]

Hey ya know. It's hard to be told your story isn't perfect. If you came to feedback looking for us to tell you how great your story was, and pat you on the back, I'm sorry. But we are giving honest opinions.

Astella

Sorry if I misunderstood what you wanted as feedback.

To answer you directly, I find a lot of porn DVDs are too male orientated and are just a tedious rearrangement of the cycle of the combustion engine, 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow'. Surely, there is a limit on how long you can watch a stiff dick pistoning into a female mouth with a hypnotic musack background before you lose the will to live.

Yes, there are a load of good, explicit erotic films and writing out there. Penetration, hardcore sex and exploring fetishes is the predominant feature on Literotica but - and this is a very big but - the sex, porn, erotica, call it what you will, is subsumed into an attempt to have good storytelling, good grammar and good editing. If you like, Lit tries to be the erotic equivalent of the NYT bestsellers list.

A poor thriller will always be a poor thriller, similarly a poor erotic story - stroke, romance or 'literature'......

Elle

For the same reasons that Elfin dislikes this kind of porn, so do I. If you pull out a DVD and put it on or choose a PPV from the TV listing, I can tell you before it starts what's going to happen.

First, there'll be some sort of introduction scene that gives a clue as to the mindless plot. Some even have sex in this part.

Second, some porn chick is going to suck some porn guy who's got a twelve inch schlong that could double as a baseball bat. Then he's going to lick her for a minute. After that he fucks her nine ways to Sunday before jacking off on her face while she cringes and hopes he misses somehow.

Next, we'll have the obligatory lesbo scene where two chicks lick each other into oblivion. I usually go get ice cream and potato chips from the place fifteen minutes away at this point. That way I miss that part.

Finally we have your usual scene where a different porn chick gets licked first by a different porn guy, then sucks him and then finally he fucks her nine ways to Sunday until he's had enough. Then he jacks off on her face while she cringes in terror at the idea of getting semen on her.

Uhg.

This is the sort of formula to avoid in your stories.

MJL

 

[tickledkitty]

Moral of the Story: Be careful what you ask for (feedback in this case) because you just might get it.

 

[AstellaJerome]

This feedback has been very useful; and I appreciate all the time you put into it: some of you are clearly very generous and dedicated with your commentary.

This experience is very worthwhile.

However, just to be clear, I'm not rewriting this story in the third person.