Need some historical technical help

[Rustyoznail]

I’m starting a story set in the early - mid 1700’s about an English Privateer raiding the Spanish merchant fleet. The ship is a civilian in a sixth-rate frigate configuration, but specifically fitted out with anti-personnel weapons.

I’ve done a bit research on ships and weapons of the era, but I’d like someone more knowledgeable to look at the details.

***edit*** or is there somewhere else to ask that question?

Any takers?

Thanks

 

[oggbashan]

I’m starting a story set in the early - mid 1700’s about an English Privateer raiding the Spanish merchant fleet. The ship is a civilian in a sixth-rate frigate configuration, but specifically fitted out with anti-personnel weapons.

I’ve done a bit research on ships and weapons of the era, but I’d like someone more knowledgeable to look at the details.

***edit*** or is there somewhere else to ask that question?

Any takers?

Thanks

If you set it slightly later you could use carronades which produced a much greater effect with a smaller and less experienced gun crew than traditional naval guns. A heavier armament could be fitted on a smaller ship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade

 

[Rustyoznail]

Thanks Ogg. I had a sneaking suspicion either you or HP would reply.

I had thought of that - either referring maybe to using Carron’s test guns or setting it a bit later. Then the question of how late did English privateers roam after the Spanish? That’s a bit unclear.

I also thought of standard cannons loaded with sulphur to disable the crew, but practically that would be hard to manage...

 

[Voboy]

Yeah, until the carronade came on the scene naval armament didn’t change much. Your “anti personnel weapons” are likely to just be different ammo fired out of the same guns, though.

I’m good on that shit, if you want to send it my way. I’ll take a look.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Thanks Voboy. I’ll prepare a rough ship spec and pm you.

The other option is a shit load of breech loading swivel guns...

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I could be mistaken, but I am not at all sure that there were many breech-loading cannon used by any European navy in the mid-1700s. They were certainly used earlier, in, say, Elizabethan times, but there were some real problems which argued against their high rate of fire.

First, as opposed to the quite sturdy muzzle-loader breech, breech-loaders by definition must have some sort of cut or opening in the back end. Given the imperfect understanding of metallurgy back then, this weakness could easily cause a disaster. For that reason, especially with powder gradually improving, propelling charges had to be kept low.

Which leads into a second problem - obturation. Unless you have a good seal at the back end, much of your propelling power is going to be wasted in leakage (not to mention alarming the gunners faced with spurts of incandescent gasses). Modern guns use a cartridge case or a hi-tech gas plug, but such were not invented until the 1800s.

As to the history of privateering, when weren’t the foul Dons considered fair targets by loyal Englishmen, arrrh?

Seriously, if we use the word ‘privateer’ properly, we are talking about a privately-owned vessel sailing under a letter of marque, in effect a licence from the government of one nation to capture shipping belonging to another nation. When the war between the two nations ended, the letters of marque were supposedly cancelled. (Communications problems often no doubt delayed notification.) With a letter of marque, the capture of vessels was legal; without one, it was piracy.

If we look at the 1700s, it’s complicated, but I think England was officially at war with Spain a bunch of times (excluding extramural games, pre-season games and such). The first was the War of Spanish Succession, 1701-14. The Seven Years’ War ran 1756-63. Then Spain got dragged into the Napoleonic wars, which ran until 1814 or so. Bottom line is that the 1700s were probably pretty open season for British privateers on Spanish ships.

Privateeering was, I think, officially made illegal under international law in the 1850s.

 

[ishtat]

N.A.M. Roger has written a superb history of the navy called "The Command of the Ocean 1649 - 1815." As so much of naval activity was privatized at the time I think that would be a good reference.

It's a great read anyway.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

A second thought. Without trying to scuttle a good yarn (pun intended), what possible purpose would there be in equipping your ship solely with antipersonnel weapons? The vessel would be unable to disable another ship while being vulnerable to being sunk by any ship as fast (some, probably) and better armed (essentially all). Even most merchant ships of the time were armed so some degree, some of them quite well.

True, if you could kill enough of the enemy above-decks, you might be able to board, but the other team would hardly allow you to try without doing its best to dismast or sink you with their heavier guns. Your captain would be sitting there throwing putty-balls against somebody armed with rocks.

Firing sulphur might sound cool in concept but it would only work if at very short range and while upwind. Winds change suddenly and the space between two ships in battle rapidly filled up with smoke - in this case, with sulphurous smoke. There's probably a reason this was never adopted in the days of sail.

That said, this is fiction and I am sure you can come up with a reason. Just pointing out things you might want to consider in drafting that reason.

I very much like age of sail stories and look forward to reading yours.

 

[oggbashan]

Naval cannon before the 19th century were unreliable and prone to casting defects that could cause them to explode, killing the gunners.

British and Dutch cannon were made to higher standards and were more reliable. British cannon makers started using boring machines in the early 18th century to produce smoother standardised cannon bores that could take a closer fitting ball giving greater range and accuracy but it took until the late 18th and early 19th century before the process was mechanised.

A ship that was equipped with bored cannon could outrange one that wasn't and with close tolerance shot and high quality British powder had a more consistent point of aim.

 

[Voboy]

Again: PM me. I’ll set you straight.

 

[Hypoxia]

If we look at the 1700s, it’s complicated, but I think England was officially at war with Spain a bunch of times (excluding extramural games, pre-season games and such). The first was the War of Spanish Succession, 1701-14. The Seven Years’ War ran 1756-63. Then Spain got dragged into the Napoleonic wars, which ran until 1814 or so.

Historical footnote: I've seen the "Seven Years’ War" labeled "First World-Wide War" since combatants ranged from Chile to Siberia. And young English colonial officer George Washington inadvertently started it in a frontier conflict. But he was tricked into delivering an outrageous surrender demand that provoked declaration of war in Paris. That round of fighting (7 Yrs War) slowed a bit, then resumed in the US revolution (a French victory), whose outcome effectively ended that global-ranging war. George was there at both ends. But he probably never worked artillery. No gun-bunny, Georgie.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Thanks all. Good ideas. Time zones are a bitch...

I’m thinking the true privateer - someone given a letter from a sponsor that permits raids on, in this case, Spanish merchant vessels. Particularly ships from the “Toro Rojo” line. The sponsor is Lord Bernard Eccleston. He has a grudge against the Spaniards...

The point of the raids is to capture and sell the ship. More damage, less profit. The frigate is fast and manoeuvrable, but still has it’s main guns to defend itself. Obviously swivels are anti personnel. I was thinking breech loaders for a higher rate of fire, but I guess metallurgy may not have been there yet. Also, a privately owned ship is probably more likely to test new things than the Navy, so trialing Carronades or other interesting weapons is feasible.

It sounds like the 1750’s is a reasonable era to base it in. I’ll pm you a bit later, Voboy with the ideas.

It’s funny. My last story only has two comments, and one of those complimented me in my accurate description of a mid 60’s Plymouth. I’m aiming (pun intended) for the same thing here.

 

[Voboy]

Thanks all. Good ideas. Time zones are a bitch...

I’m thinking the true privateer - someone given a letter from a sponsor that permits raids on, in this case, Spanish merchant vessels. Particularly ships from the “Toro Rojo” line. The sponsor is Lord Bernard Eccleston. He has a grudge against the Spaniards...

The point of the raids is to capture and sell the ship. More damage, less profit. The frigate is fast and manoeuvrable, but still has it’s main guns to defend itself. Obviously swivels are anti personnel. I was thinking breech loaders for a higher rate of fire, but I guess metallurgy may not have been there yet. Also, a privately owned ship is probably more likely to test new things than the Navy, so trialing Carronades or other interesting weapons is feasible.

It sounds like the 1750’s is a reasonable era to base it in. I’ll pm you a bit later, Voboy with the ideas.

It’s funny. My last story only has two comments, and one of those complimented me in my accurate description of a mid 60’s Plymouth. I’m aiming (pun intended) for the same thing here.

You’ll find, if you do your research, that the objective of sea warfare at this period was ALWAYS to capture and condemn enemy vessels for the profit of the crew, whether naval or marque. They won the battle without worrying over much about damage, as sailors knew how to fix up most of it enough to get to the nearest court and get paid.

You won a battle by mauling your enemy’s masts and rigging such that he could no longer maneuver; most of these battles ended as soon as one captain realized he could no longer maneuver upwind of his enemy, as the upwind ship could always bring his guns to bear and the downwind ship could not.

Read Pope’s “Life in Nelson’s Navy.” It’ll tell you all you need to know. Give your privateer normal armament and fight a normal battle. Don’t kill enemy sailors; dismast enemy ships. That’ll get them to surrender quicker.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Great, thanks.

 

[Voboy]

Since I'm here, remember this was the eighteenth century; concepts of honor and gentlemanly conduct mattered. Captains at this time, especially naval ones (and privateers tended to be run by unemployed naval officers), placed a high value on the lives of their men, as recruitment was incredibly difficult and there was a sense that the objective dangers of the sea were quite enough to deal with without being unnecessarily brutal. Quarter was expected and given by almost every naval officer, no matter what nation he sailed for.

A man who deliberately went after enemy crewmen's lives would have soon gained a very poor reputation, which would have reflected on his owner in his social circle. Worse, it would have made your captain's job harder because his enemies would fight harder, knowing not to expect quarter, or would refuse to give battle at all. This would have impacted your captain's prize haul, which would have led to extreme difficulty in getting men to sail with him.

Of course, this is Lit; do as you please. But, since you asked...

 

[Rustyoznail]

All ideas happily received. WW1 & 2 have been my era of interest.

 

[NotWise]

All ideas happily received. WW1 & 2 have been my era of interest.

Really? Alrighty then.

Did you know that British merchant ships were probably responsible for repelling countless alien attacks on Earth between 1700 and 1800? The flying saucers were capable of repulsing any kind of directed energy weapon, but they were completely defenseless against a wooden ship under sail at five knots and capable of hurling 35 lb iron balls for short distances.

If not for them, we'd all be living as sex slaves for insatiable alien tentacle creatures.

I have references here. Let me look. No, not there. Not there. Just a second and I'll get back to you.

 

[Hypoxia]

I’m starting a story set in the early - mid 1700’s about an English Privateer raiding the Spanish merchant fleet.

Where's the erotica?

All ideas happily received. WW1 & 2 have been my era of interest.

Naval warfare changed up till then and beyond. Much literature documents the eras. For LIT, set tales in murky backwaters with plenty of room for sensual action:

1) 20000 Leagues-type scenario
2) African Queen-type scenario
3) escapades aboard training ships
4) 1898 war floating brothel in Manila or Havana harbor
5) tramp steamer dodging attacks between port calls
6) torpedo-boat crews with dames in every port
7) whatever floating perversions we can devise

Just off the top of my head, hey?

 

[Rustyoznail]

Really? Alrighty then.

Did you know that British merchant ships were probably responsible for repelling countless alien attacks on Earth between 1700 and 1800? The flying saucers were capable of repulsing any kind of directed energy weapon, but they were completely defenseless against a wooden ship under sail at five knots and capable of hurling 35 lb iron balls for short distances.

If not for them, we'd all be living as sex slaves for insatiable alien tentacle creatures.

I have references here. Let me look. No, not there. Not there. Just a second and I'll get back to you.

And Wolfenstien is not a made up game. It's based on real Nazi technology. Demons, hellspawn, and the rest.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Where's the erotica?

That's the easy bit. You'll have to wait and see. Sex on the high seas in the time of sail.

 

[NotWise]

And Wolfenstien is not a made up game. It's based on real Nazi technology. Demons, hellspawn, and the rest.

Here it is!

According to this tweet, CNN and Fox News both agree that if it weren't for the Carronade, we'd all be butt-up right now.

Edit: Sorry. Just having fun at your expense.

 

[Hypoxia]

That's the easy bit. You'll have to wait and see. Sex on the high seas in the time of sail.

Rum and buggery, ahoy! Till the ship anchors in Tahiti.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Here it is!

According to this tweet, CNN and Fox News both agree that if it weren't for the Carronade, we'd all be butt-up right now.

Edit: Sorry. Just having fun at your expense.

No! Really? I would never have guessed... I mean, CNN And Fox agreeing was a dead give away.

Probably won't be any buggery on this ship. Well, not in the traditional Naval way.

 

[Hypoxia]

Probably won't be any buggery on this ship. Well, not in the traditional Naval way.

Buggery, muggery, and thuggery -- such solid traditions. I recall back in the day, performance artist General Waste-More-Land displayed his perfected Navel Salute: navel to navel, a crisp turn of the hand. His choice of Navel Buggery involved oranges and cockroaches. Bugs! Swarming! And nowhere near the Sandwich Islands!

 

[ishtat]

. Captains at this time, especially naval ones (and privateers tended to be run by unemployed naval officers), placed a high value on the lives of their men, as recruitment was incredibly difficult and there was a sense that the objective dangers of the sea were quite enough to deal with without being unnecessarily brutal. Quarter was expected and given by almost every naval officer, no matter what nation he sailed for.

A man who deliberately went after enemy crewmen's lives would have soon gained a very poor reputation, which would have reflected on his owner in his social circle. Worse, it would have made your captain's job harder because his enemies would fight harder, knowing not to expect quarter, or would refuse to give battle at all. This would have impacted your captain's prize haul, which would have led to extreme difficulty in getting men to sail with him.
)

My wife's ancestry was Anglo/Portuguese and one man in particular served as mate on a privateer in the 1730's 40's. His captain at the time (as you say a naval officer on part pay) commented in his log that as a Portuguese/Galician speaker his mate was successful at persuading some of the best 'Spanish' crew to switch sides which was perceived as a bonus prize.

Although these men were serving on a 'Spanish' ship the sailors originated from Galicia and the North coast and tended to be more loyal to their region than the central Spanish government.

Jane Austen in "Persuasion" comments at some length on her hero Wentworth's good fortune in taking enemy ships. She was in a position to know, because her brother served in the navy and rose to Admiral (I think).