Need help for info on UK re 'knight' 'sir' and 'baron'

[Tomh1966]

I have a minor character in an upcoming story (current time period)

MC owns a business and makes contact with a UK company owned by 'Sir William Bearington' Call him wealthy but not stinking rich. Think net worth in the 8 to 15 million pound range, not the hundred+ million pound range. Income in the perhaps half-million pound range annually.

I want him to be the lowest of the elite, or near elite and high...ish ranking. I'm thinking technically a knight, but I cannot get a good explanation of that rank. Duke down to Baron has a thousand articles. Knight never seems to be properly explained.

Can anyone from the UK properly explain how the ranks at the bottom end of the elite work? Also, my goal is to not have my MC always calling the guy 'My lord' or such. 'Sir William Bearington' is a nice guy and wants to be called 'William'.

Also. Anything I should know so my story does not look completely stupid to the considerable UK readership here?

 

[AlinaX]

Knighthoods are handed out to people in recognition of something they've done for the country, e.g., successful athletes, artists, influential politicians, etc. Think of it as the U.K. reinforcing the establishment's fantasy of what Britain is.

People can become barons too. Former prime ministers, for instance. Becoming a Lord isn't easy. You're either born that way or you earn it. Or, if the government is corrupt enough, you can buy your way in.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Not from the UK, but “knight” is probably the easiest title to obtain, through the Order of the British Empire, or OBE. Get nominated by a member of parliament, the monarch rubber stamps it (happens twice a year), and if you’re a British citizen, you can call yourself Sir or Dame. OBE is for “service to the crown,” so that can be just about anything: artists, professors, industrialists, etc. It’s illegal as hell, but people have bribed their MP to get nominated, too; you better have SOMEthing to back it up with, though, some nominal reason you deserve it. Your character should be fine.

 

[stickygirl]

Knighthoods are handed out to people in recognition of something they've done for the country, e.g., successful athletes, artists, influential politicians, etc. Think of it as the U.K. reinforcing the establishment's fantasy of what Britain is.

A bit harsh re establishments. It's a pat on the head for doing Good Work or being a civil servant who kept their mouth shut.

People can become barons too. Former prime ministers, for instance. Becoming a Lord isn't easy. You're either born that way or you earn it. Or, if the government is corrupt enough, you can buy your way in.

Given that our current govt have been in power for most of my life, I can only agree that brown-nosing and being some politician's bitch earns you automatic inclusion into the most corrupt and brazenly political anachronism known as the House of Lords.
Wiki tells me
'As of August 2023, there are 805 hereditary peers: 30 dukes (including six royal dukes), 34 marquesses, 189 earls, 110 viscounts, and 442 barons (not counting subsidiary titles). Not all hereditary titles are titles of the peerage.'
I met a Lord once - a hereditary one, but when his father died he became an Earl.

If you're still in doubt, call him an Eton Cunt and you'll be close.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sir Sean Connery is an excellent example of a knight.

Knighthoods are handed out to people in recognition of something they've done for the country, e.g., successful athletes, artists, influential politicians, etc. Think of it as the U.K. reinforcing the establishment's fantasy of what Britain is.

People can become barons too. Former prime ministers, for instance. Becoming a Lord isn't easy. You're either born that way or you earn it. Or, if the government is corrupt enough, you can buy your way in.

EDIT: Albeit a dead one.

 

[NoTalentHack]

 

[stickygirl]

Not from the UK, but “knight” is probably the easiest title to obtain, through the Order of the British Empire, or OBE. Get nominated by a member of parliament, the monarch rubber stamps it (happens twice a year), and if you’re a British citizen, you can call yourself Sir or Dame. OBE is for “service to the crown,” so that can be just about anything: artists, professors, industrialists, etc. It’s illegal as hell, but people have bribed their MP to get nominated, too; you better have SOMEthing to back it up with, though, some nominal reason you deserve it. Your character should be fine.

No, an OBE doesn't confer the title of Sir or Dame - that's a KBE or GBE. An OBE can get a later upgrade though.

As regards character, you can be a kiddy fiddler or rapist so long as you kept it out the press, which is why Prince Andrew got most of his toys taken away by the Queen, allegedly. Famously Sir Jimmy (where are the children?) Saville kept his title until his died, then it was burned.

 

[MillieDynamite]

A baronet is an inferior Baron.

Source, the book "On Her Majesties Secret Service," and the movie as well.

 

[StillStunned]

You're probably looking for a baronet.

EDIT: Albeit a dead one.

No such thing as a dead knight. The knighthood ceases to exist. (There was an episode of QI where the question was, "Where are dead knights buried?" Answer: They're not.

ETA: Want to make it really interesting? Try figuring out how to address his wife. Particularly if she's from an aristocratic family on her own account.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Hey you, always works in a pinch.

You're probably looking for a baronet.

No such thing as a dead knight. The knighthood ceases to exist. (There was an episode of QI where the question was, "Where are dead knights buried?" Answer: They're not.

ETA: Want to make it really interesting? Try figuring out how to address his wife. Particularly if she's from an aristocratic family on her own account.

 

[BobbyLaker]

...If you're still in doubt, call him an Eton Cunt and you'll be close.

 

[BobbyLaker]

Hey you, always works in a pinch.

"Oi Mush" is an oft-heard greeting in these parts.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Knighthood is handed down to Black Knights (Irish), White Knights, and Green Knights (also Irish).

I didn't look up what a White Knight is. But the Green Knights are the only ones that are left.

So, to make him really inferior, make him a Black Knight. He just realizes he isn't one anymore.

 

[StillStunned]

I didn't look up what a White Knight is.

True story: the first time I heard Nights in White Satin, I thought they were singing "Knights". I still hear it that way in my head. (Also the first song I snogged to.)

 

[djrip]

True story: the first time I heard Nights in White Satin, I thought they were singing "Knights". I still hear it that way in my head. (Also the first song I snogged to.)

I thought that until just now.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Breathe deep the gathering gloom.

True story: the first time I heard Nights in White Satin, I thought they were singing "Knights". I still hear it that way in my head. (Also the first song I snogged to.)

 

[AchtungNight]

The future President in Tom Clancy’s Ryan series was named a Knight Commander of the British Empire in Patriot Games. He had to turn it down officially, being an American citizen. My faux British fanfic avatar has never earned an official knighthood, but he’d probably do the same. Friendship Regal, Aspiring Nobody, is enough for him.

The ranks of British nobility to the best of my knowledge-
Page
Squire
Knight / Dame
Knight Commander
Sheriff
Baronet
Baron / Baroness
Earl
Viscount
Marquis / Marchioness
Count / Countess
Duke / Duchess
Grand Duke
Prince / Princess
Crown Prince
King / Queen

Lord and Lady are generic terms.

 

[BobbyLaker]

The very word "Knight" conjours up images of chivalrous chaps out to right wrongs and 'educate' those in far off lands.

More recently it's just some geezer who Bozzer or Truss owes a favour to on their way out of office.

 

[BobbyLaker]

The future President in Tom Clancy’s Ryan series was named a Knight Commander of the British Empire in Patriot Games. He had to turn it down officially, being an American citizen. My faux British fanfic avatar has never earned an official knighthood, but he’d probably do the same. Friendship Regal, Aspiring Nobody, is enough for him.

The ranks of British nobility to the best of my knowledge-
Page
Squire
Knight / Dame
Knight Commander
Sheriff
Baronet
Baron / Baroness
Earl
Viscount
Marquis / Marchioness
Count / Countess
Duke / Duchess
Grand Duke
Prince / Princess
Crown Prince
King / Queen

Lord and Lady are generic terms.

'Squire' will do for me ta

 

[MillieDynamite]

Esquire is a term that means you're a liar, a cheat, and a lawyer in America. I could have said just lawyer, as a lawyer is always a liar and cheat. Just kidding.

 

[stickygirl]

Knighthood is handed down to Black Knights (Irish), White Knights, and Green Knights (also Irish).

I didn't look up what a White Knight is. But the Green Knights are the only ones that are left.

So, to make him really inferior, make him a Black Knight. He just realizes he isn't one anymore.

I thought they were all condoms

 

[onehitwanda]

canonical launch point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

He could be a knight bachelor - i.e. someone knighted by the Sovereign but not necessarily inducted into one of Chivalric orders. This would make sense were he a sports person, celebrity, businessman etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Bachelor

though someone who was worth only the upper tens of millions of pounds would likely have come to their knighthood some other way.

Were it not absolutely necessary to the story I'd drop the requirement on a noble title, and simply make him a wealthy landowner; it simplifies matters a lot and lends itself more to a down-to-earth self-made man who'd done rather well for himself. The kind of people who are awarded titles are often

If he was a high-level donor to the Conversative party you could of course make him a Life Peer. That seems to be the way things are done these days

Also, my goal is to not have my MC always calling the guy 'My lord' or such.

He would only be addressed as Lord Bearington were he not a knight or one of the five degrees of peerage; Lord/Lady X is the honourific for a member of the House of Lords absent any superior title. Were he a knight, he would always be addressed as Sir William, occasionally as Sir William Bearington were it necessary.

 

[stickygirl]

Lord and Lady are generic terms.

So if you're a page at a posh do, you introduce 'Baron Fortesque' as Lord Fortesque, because of course everyone knows he's a Baron and one mustn't labour the point or else appear gauche

 

[onehitwanda]

So if you're a page at a posh do, you introduce 'Baron Fortesque' as Lord Fortesque, because of course everyone knows he's a Baron and one mustn't labour the point or else appear gauche

I'd be agonizing over how to pronounce his name, let alone the correct title.

Of course, it's nowhere near as bad as Diane, Countesss Penistone, Lady Companion of the Most Noble order of the Garter, Baroness of Scapa - or Tilly, as we like to call her.

 

[HordHolm]

Ok, so without wanting to put any shade on some previous commenters, here's what things really look like:

Knight. The lowest noble rank. Not hereditary, and these days awarded for achievement, be that commercial, political or cultural. Thus a very successful businessman might be awarded a knighthood - e.g Sir Richard Branson, or for political service, e.g Sir Chris Bryant MP, or cultural, e.g. Sir Alex Ferguson or Sir Elton John. The female version is Dame. Strictly speaking a knight is not an aristocrat, and is still a 'commoner', and would occupy a seat in the House of Commons, if a politician, rather than a seat in the House of Lords.

Baronet is a form of hereditary knighthood that was introduced some hundreds of years ago as a way of the crown to earn cash for selling honours. There aren't many baronets about as the rank isn't generally awarded any more, but they do exist and are styled Sir Joe Bloggs Bt. Also still a 'common' title.

Baron can be either hereditary or awarded for the lifetime of the individual. When awarded for the lifetime of the recipient this is a political appointment entitling the holder to sit in the House of Lords (the upper house of the Houses of Parliament). Hereditary appointments are very rare. Styled as Lord or Lady Joe Bloggs of Place - e.g Lord John Johnson of London. Only a few women hold this rank in their own right as a hereditary appointment, but there are a fairly large number of women holding lifetime appointments.

Next is Viscount. This rank is largely reserved for the eldest son of an Earl and is mostly a courtesy title (it is basically 'half-Earl'). There are a few Viscounts out there who won't step up in rank once Daddy dies. Almost exclusively hereditary, and in the old days entitled the holder to a seat in the House of Lords.

Higher up is Earl. This used to be the highest noble rank below royalty. A hereditary rank which is only rarely awarded, most Earls come from old families. An Earldom might be awarded to someone who won a war, or was particularly outstanding as a political leader, but generally the only awards will be to junior royals who get showered with titles like its confetti. The wife of an Earl is a Countess, and teh equivalent European rank is Count.

Above Earl is Marquis, which is likewise hereditary. The last award of a Marquisate which still exists was in 1926. Not a particularly common rank even when it was something that was being handed out. The wife of a Marquis is a Marchioness.

The highest non-royal rank is Duke. This is the highest rank of the aristocracy and is often held by senior royals - thus Prince William is Duke of Cornwall alongside being Prince of Wales. In fact, the number of non-royal dukes is steadily declining as the last new award was made in 1900, and it is unlikely that any new awards will be made. Thus when ducal families don't produce sons the title dies out, not to be replaced. So new Dukes are only royal ones - the sons or brothers of the sovereign. A Duke's wife is a Duchess.

The only higher ranks than Dukes are Prince of Wales and the sovereign, be they a king or queen. 'Prince' in itself is descriptive, and does not convey an aristocratic rank - thus one can be a prince without an actual title.