National Punctuation Day

[Vielle]

I think yesterday was Punctuation Day, so I thought I'd start a thread with a couple questions:

Do you ever put punctuation outside quotation marks? Why? (I never never do)

Do you use the em dash? When and how? Does it usually replace the semicolon, or parentheses, or ellipsis, or do you use it uniquely?

 

[sr71plt]

I think yesterday was Punctuation Day, so I thought I'd start a thread with a couple questions:

Do you ever put punctuation outside quotation marks? Why? (I never never do)

Do you use the em dash? When and how? Does it usually replace the semicolon, or parentheses, or ellipsis, or do you use it uniquely?

First, the British system puts punctuation marks outside the quote more than the American system does. Second, in the American system, the "rule" is more stringent for periods and commas than question marks and exclamation marks. And you wouldn't put a semicolon inside the quotation marks in any example I can think of (others might).

And example of punctuation outside the quotation marks in the American system: Have you read the marvelous spy story "Black Box"?

I use the em dash--a lot. For all sorts of reasons, mostly to explain or remove observations from the text. I use the semicolon too, and the em dash and semicolon serve entirely different functions in a sentence. Per the Chicago Manual of Style, I use ellipses for faltering speech or dialogue where what the character says just peters out at the end. The em dash is used when the speech is cut off abruptly, as when another character overrides what one character is saying with their own dialogue. The parentheses are used mainly in nonfiction, not fiction--and never in dialogue. (It doesn't work in what is meant to have been spoken--use the em dash instead.)

 

[DG Hear]

First, the British system puts punctuation marks outside the quote more than the American system does. Second, in the American system, the "rule" is more stringent for periods and commas than question marks and explanation points. And you wouldn't put a semicolon inside the quotation marks in any example I can think of (others might).

And example of punctuation outside the quotation marks in the American system: Have you read the marvelous spy story "Black Box"?

I use the em dash--a lot. For all sorts of reasons, mostly to explain or remove observations from the text. I use the semicolon too, and the em dash and semicolon serve entirely different functions in a sentence. Per the Chicago Manual of Style, I use ellipses for faltering speech or dialogue where what the character says just peters out at the end. The em dash is used when the speech is cut off abruptly, as when another character overrides what one character is saying with their own dialogue. The parentheses are used mainly in nonfiction, not fiction--and never in dialogue. (It doesn't work in what is meant to have been spoken--use the em dash instead.)

SR would you write a sentence using each item you mention? em dash, dots, etc. I get confused a lot with them, drives my editors bonkers.
Tanks
DG

 

[colddiesel]

Just to educate an old fart will someone please tell me how to do an em dash. I can see the hyphen on the keyboard and can do a -- double one no trouble at all but how can I leave out that annoying little gap in the middle?

I'm using a keyboard with the American rather than the British layout.

And whilst we are at it where did the name em originate? -- the world needs to know.

 

[sr71plt]

SR would you write a sentence using each item you mention? em dash, dots, etc. I get confused a lot with them, drives my editors bonkers.
Tanks
DG

Using the em dash (for interrupted sentenses}:

"Ooo, it's so hot in here I think I'll take off--"

"Why just the skirt? Why not the panties too?"

(the dialogue was interrupted)



Using the ellipses:

"It's so hot in here, I think I will . . . I think I just might . . ."

"That's nice, but why just stop at the skirt?"

The dialogue just peters off into indecisiveness on how to end the sentence.

 

[DG Hear]

Using the em dash (for interrupted sentenses}:

"Ooo, it's so hot in here I think I'll take off--"

"Why just the skirt? Why not the panties too?"

(the dialogue was interrupted)



Using the ellipses:

"It's so hot in here, I think I will . . . I think I just might . . ."

"That's nice, but why just stop at the skirt?"

The dialogue just peters off into indecisiveness on how to end the sentence.

Thanks SR, I really do appreciate it. Now all I have to do is remember it.
with respect
DG

 

[Handley_Page]

I think the name of the spaces (en and em) is from the world of printing; if I recall aright, an em is worth 2 ens.

And thank you, SR, for the guidance.

 

[oggbashan]

I think the name of the spaces (en and em) is from the world of printing; if I recall aright, an em is worth 2 ens.

And thank you, SR, for the guidance.

My Dictionary defines an em as the space that would be filled by a printer's capital (upper case) M, an en is half that space and was originally a printer's capital N before being standardised as half an em.

Og

 

[sr71plt]

My Dictionary defines an em as the space that would be filled by a printer's capital (upper case) M, an en is half that space and was originally a printer's capital N before being standardised as half an em.

Og

Yep, that's the origin of the terms.

 

[Weird Harold]

Just to educate an old fart will someone please tell me how to do an em dash.

Your word processer program should change the '--' to an em-dash, but a true em-dash in the forum is more work than it's worth. If you want true em-dashes in your stories, then replace '--' with '&emdash;' (That's '&' + 'emdash' + ';' if your browser decides to recognise it and display the em-dash.)

 

[Xelebes]

Language settings also vary. Using US International or Canadian Multilingual, typing → [Right CTRL] + [,] → ― .

 

[trysail]

Just to educate an old fart will someone please tell me how to do an em dash. I can see the hyphen on the keyboard and can do a -- double one no trouble at all but how can I leave out that annoying little gap in the middle?

I'm using a keyboard with the American rather than the British layout.

And whilst we are at it where did the name em originate? -- the world needs to know.

Whilst holding down the "Alt" key, simultaneously enter the numbers "0151" to get —.


Voila!

 

[oggbashan]

Whilst holding down the "Alt" key, simultaneously enter the numbers "0151" to get —.


Voila!

But these expedients don't always work if the reader has the system set to another language as normal. My French accents such as é, â etc. can get distorted.

Og

 

[Bebeslut]

Always put the punctuation inside the quote marks -- see Strunk and White.
I use the em dash as a kind of aside.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Punctuation porn...

 

[sr71plt]

Always put the punctuation inside the quote marks -- see Strunk and White.
I use the em dash as a kind of aside.

If writing for the U.S. market, yes. If writing for the U.K. market, it's not that simple (or correct), as guidance.

 

[Xelebes]

Always put the punctuation inside the quote marks -- see Strunk and White.
I use the em dash as a kind of aside.

Never use the Strunk & White - use Chicago Manual, 16th Edition if you live in the US. Canadians use The Canadian Style, 4th Edition and I forget what the Brits use.

 

[sr71plt]

Never use the Strunk & White - use Chicago Manual, 16th Edition if you live in the US. Canadians use The Canadian Style, 4th Edition and I forget what the Brits use.

The British publishers I've worked with also used the Chicago Manual of Style.

My eyes bugged out at your mention of the 16th edition, but you're right. I new edition came out in August. Damn, another $40 to pay.