National ID Card question

[Todd]

How much info are you willing to have included on a National ID Card {like you'll have a choice, but lets pretend we have real rights anyways}

Name

Picture

Thumb Print

Retenal Scan

Medical History

Financial History

Organizations your part of

Work History.


??? How much would you allow, how much is neccessary ???

 

[tigerjen]

here's what should be on there

name
picture
retinal scan
thumb scan


maybe work history and medical history

but no finanical history (that's why they have credit
records already)

organizations that one is part of could change
over time, that's why I wouldn't want that on there.

just my 2 cents.

TJ

 

[Mischka]

No! Not my name!!

Seriously, I'd like to combine my driver's license and social security card, with a few more pieces of information. I'd include name, social number, blood type, donor information, and thumb print/retinal scan. The FBI already has my finger prints on file - required for law school - so I have no problem with including it on my id card. The medical and financial information & organizations would change too often to make it practical to include, and they do not help in identifying a person as accurately as a finger print.

 

[Todd]

Oh yeah this is for Canucks too. Prime Minister Johnny Crappin wants to gets us a National ID Card by christmas 2002

 

[modest mouse]

Bad Idea(too many reasons to mention)

http://www.aclu.org/




National Identification Cards: 5 Reasons
Why They Should Be Rejected


The terrible events of September 11 have revived proposals for a national identity card system as a
way to verify the identity of airline passengers and prevent terrorists from entering the country. For
example, the Chairman and CEO of Oracle Corp., Larry Ellison, recently called for the creation of
a national ID system and offered to provide the software for it without charge.

The newest calls for a national ID are only the latest in a long series of proposals that have cropped
up repeatedly over the past decade, usually in the context of immigration policy, but also in
connection with gun control or health care reform. But the creation of a national I.D. card remains a
misplaced, superficial "quick fix." It offers only a false sense of security and will not enhance our
security - but will pose serious threats to our civil liberties and civil rights. A National ID will not
keep us safe or free.


FIVE REASONS WHY A NATIONAL ID CARD SHOULD BE REJECTED

Reason #1: A national ID card system would not solve the problem that is inspiring it.
A national ID card system will not prevent terrorism. It would not have thwarted the September 11
hijackers, for example, many of whom reportedly had identification documents on them, and were in
the country legally.

Terrorists and criminals will continue to be able to obtain -- by legal and illegal means -- the
documents needed to get a government ID, such as birth certificates. Yes, these new documents will
have data like digital fingerprints on them, but that won't prove real identity - just that the carrier has
obtained what could easily be a fraudulent document.

And their creation would not justify the cost to American taxpayers, which according to the Social
Security Administration would be at least $2.5 billion just to issue the cards. It is an impractical and
ineffective proposal - a simplistic and naïve attempt to use gee-whiz technology to solve complex
social and economic problems.

Reason #2: An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring
of citizens.
A national ID card system would not protect us from terrorism, but it would create a system of
internal passports that would significantly diminish the freedom and privacy of law-abiding citizens.
Once put in place, it is exceedingly unlikely that such a system would be restricted to its original
purpose. The original Social Security Act contained strict prohibitions against use of Social Security
cards for unrelated purposes, but those strictures have been routinely ignored and steadily
abandoned over the past 50 years. A national ID system would threaten the privacy that Americans
have always enjoyed and gradually increase the control that government and business wields over
everyday citizens.

Reason #3: A national ID card system would require creation of a database of all
Americans
What happens when an ID card is stolen? What proof is used to decide who gets a card? A
national ID would require a governmental database of every person in the U.S. containing continually
updated identifying information. It would likely contain many errors, any one of which could render
someone unemployable and possibly much worse until they get their "file" straightened out. And
once that database was created, its use would almost certainly expand. Law enforcement and other
government agencies would soon ask to link into it, while employers, landlords, credit agencies,
mortgage brokers, direct mailers, landlords, private investigators, civil litigants, and a long list of
other parties would begin seeking access, further eroding the privacy that Americans have always
expected in their personal lives.

Reason #4: ID cards would function as "internal passports" that monitor citizens'
movements
Americans have long had a visceral aversion to building a society in which the authorities could act
like totalitarian sentries and demand, "your papers please!" And that everyday intrusiveness would
be conjoined with the full power of modern computer and database technology. When a police
officer or security guard scans your ID card with his pocket bar-code reader, for example, will a
permanent record be created of that check, including the time and your location? How long before
office buildings, doctors' offices, gas stations, highway tolls, subways and buses incorporate the ID
card into their security or payment systems for greater efficiency? The end result could be a nation
where citizens' movements inside their own country are monitored and recorded through these
"internal passports."

Reason #5: ID cards would foster new forms of discrimination and harassment
Rather than eliminating discrimination, as some have claimed, a national identity card would foster
new forms of discrimination and harassment of anyone perceived as looking or sounding "foreign."
That is what happened after Congress passed the Employer Sanctions provision of the Immigration
Reform and Control Act of 1985: widespread discrimination against foreign-looking American
workers, especially Asians and Hispanics. A 1990 General Accounting Office (GAO) study found
almost 20 percent of employers engaged in such practices. A national ID card would have the same
effect on a massive scale, as Latinos, Asians, Caribbeans and other minorities became subject to
ceaseless status and identity checks from police, banks, merchants and others. Failure to carry a
national I.D. card would likely come to be viewed as a reason for search, detention or arrest of
minorities. The stigma and humiliation of constantly having to prove that they are Americans or legal
immigrants would weigh heavily on such groups.

 

[tigerjen]

blood type/donor info

oohhhhh I didn't even think of blood type and
donor information!! Good idea, esp. if god forbid
something happens to an individual, and that info
is accessible.

 

[Mischka]

A more direct link: http://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy/National_ID_objections.html

We already use two national identification cards in the US (driver's license and social security card), plus a database of finger prints. I understand the concerns of the ACLU, but I would like a more accurate system of identifying a pool of blood & organ donors. Driver's licenses have already started to include that information.

Here's a question - how would a national id card create any greater harassment than our current cards? A person under suspicion by the police already has to identify themselves through their driver's license. What would be different?

 

[Calamity Jane]

How much info are you willing to have included on a National ID Card {like you'll have a choice, but lets pretend we have real rights anyways}

Name

What good is an ID card w/o a name?

Picture

If we're combining the ID card with a DL, I don't have a problem with it. My DL pic is posted on this site, so I obviously don't care who sees it.

Thumb Print

My prints are already on file somewhere, so this is fine too.

Retenal Scan

Seems just a little creepy, but I guess this is ok.

Medical History

Nope. Who's business is it that I missed my annual last year, or that I had xrays taken of my knee 6 years in a row? Absolutely unnecessary info, and a little too Gattica for me. Though it would be nice to have immunization records encoded.

Financial History

Assuming one exists... again, relevance?

Organizations you're part of

Nope. Seems too closely related to 'religion'. And, as I've stated before. In Missouri, in a town with 400 people and 6 churches, I don't need everyone knowing I'm a card carrying witch. For that matter, I don't need everyone knowing that I belong to a foxhunt on a military installation and therefore can make it past the checkpoints with very little trouble.

Work History.

Completely irrelevant. If I wanted to carry a resume around, I would.

??? How much would you allow, how much is neccessary ???

I do like the idea of blood type/donor info. To me, these cards should combine voter reg cards, dl's, ss cards, and birth certificate info. All those annoying little pieces of ID that you have to have access to, but rarely do. Maybe they could function as passports too?

KM DID say dark blue was ok, didn't she? If not, I'll edit.

 

[modest mouse]

A more direct link: http://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy/National_ID_objections.html

We already use two national identification cards in the US (driver's license and social security card), plus a database of finger prints. I understand the concerns of the ACLU, but I would like a more accurate system of identifying a pool of blood & organ donors. Driver's licenses have already started to include that information.

Here's a question - how would a national id card create any greater harassment than our current cards? A person under suspicion by the police already has to identify themselves through their driver's license. What would be different?

Your points are valid Mischka. I bring up the ACLU article as a point of view and maybe some people will check out the rest of their site.

I am always amazed how much information people volunterr about themselves. the best one is the warranty registration cards inside of products. Fill it out and get ready for junk mail, a warranty is validated by a receipt, no card needed. There are also numerous times where organizations ask for SS# and have no right to do so.

I believe you have to fight every step of this kind by our government as it only becomes one more step in a "Big Brother" scenario. The current administration has shown more willingness than nearly any other (in recent times) to play moral police.

As the populace continues to homogenate, it is increasingly criminal to be on the fringe.

 

[Thomas Paine]

The FBI already has my finger prints on file - required for law school

You had to be fingerprinted for law school? When did that start?

I remember putting a thumbprint on my LSAT, but I never got printed for law school.

 

[Mischka]

Don't know when it started, but every student in every accredited law school now gets fully finger printed. It's part of the Intent to Study Law form & background check they run on us.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

how would a national id card create any greater harassment than our current cards? A person under suspicion by the police already has to identify themselves through their driver's license. What would be different?

This is exactly the argument I made to someone the other day when discussing this issue. A national ID would make the jobs of security officials easier by requiring them to be familiar with just one national ID instead of having to recognizing fakes of all the current 50 state ID's (as well as other forms of ID like military ID's, etc.). And you're absolutely right that the card wouldn't necessarily have to carry any more information than our current ID's. This is much ado about nothing.

 

[Myrrdin]

Had to laugh at this thread. Spent last night sorting through a box of identity cards.
Every cow, bull, heifer,calf etc in the UK over 28 days old has to have an identity card .
Carrying all its details.

• Date of birth
• Gender
• Its id number, a 14 digit code it carries in tags in both ears
• It's mother's id number
• It's fathers id number.
• It's genetic breed
• Where first registered
• All other locations it's pased through in it's life. Including adresses and dates. Every movement has to be reported back to the central database. ( All monitored through a bar coding system.)
• Date of issue
• It's present location

This is all stored on a Government run central database. The technology is in place. It's a question of when it will be switched to track the human population , not if.

 

[christophe]

i think a persons state id card or drivers liscense could be modiified to do this same thing. having a national id is not only costly it would require another gov. agency to monitor its function. ergo moer wasteful spending.

if gov want to do something beneficial it would do well to modify current id cards without all the fuss.

whats on my drivers liscence is plenty of info as far as im concerned

 

[SoftPeaches]

I don't think that having an id card would be that big of a deal.....driver's licenses are already getting very difficult to forge (believe me, I've tried, in order to get into better clubs when I was in college; plus when you lose your license, and you get another, your old one becomes invalid), so I would not be concerned with mine getting stolen.
I would want my driver's license and ss card combined.
I would like to see included on them:
Name
SS #
Fingerprints
retinal scan (how ever would one do this, anyway?)
Blood type
Serious medical conditions/allergies (in case of a car accident, or something like that, the hospital would know you are allergic to penicillin), but I think this should be optional.

I would really oppose financial and work history, as well as organizations you are part of. Not necessary, and going too far.

 

[christophe]

soft peaches ...love your av

the only problem i see is most places dont even check your id when writing a check or using a charge card or a travelers check let alone anything else.

id like to see this remedied before they add anything else to them

 

[SoftPeaches]

christophe
I agree that the old ids need to be fixed. I had an error occur to my id, because in ohio, there is a 1 in 20 car insurance check, where you mail in your proof of insurance. I got tagged for it, and did as I was instructed, but it didn't get taken care of in Columbus. I got pulled over by a cop when I wasn't speeding, because they suspended my license and i never knew. Took two months to iron everything out, all because someone else couldn't do their job.
I just feel that if the id thing happens (as it probably will someday), those are the things I would feel comfortable having on it. I also agree that the id cards should be modified driver's licenses. There is no sense in spending any more money on it than necessary making it a federal thing.

BTW thanks I like your av too

 

[Thumper]

National ID vs. Drivers license

Big difference..

You are not required to carry a drivers license or ID right now.

No optical scans
No fingerprints
No medical information
No financial information
No affiliation information

In short....nothing that can be used to track my every move.

And why should we make it easier for the government to keep an eye on us.

I would rather take my chances with a few (relative to the population) idiot terrorists than to give up my pseudo anonymity.

Fear .....fear it.

I can here the sounds of sheep begging for safety...

and then they lead the lambs to the slaughter.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I have a federal ID card. It has name, picture, social security number (which I'd prefer they not have on there), birthdate, issue date, expiration date, hair color, eye color, height, and weight. This is all the information an ID needs to have. Its sole purpose is to identify the card holder. There is no need for finger prints, retinal scans, dna clips, whatever.

The social security number should NOT be on any piece of ID, particularly coupled with name and birthdate. The SSN can be pirated and used by illegals or identity thieves. The SSN should only be used for its requirements. Getting a job and taxes. It should not be used on anything else. In fact, it's illegal to use it in any way that will violate the privacy of the number. It's against the law to put it on the face of your check when you write one, for anyone to ask for it beyond the job and taxation without you signing a privacy act statement, and bunches of other things.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Re: National ID vs. Drivers license

Big difference..

You are not required to carry a drivers license or ID right now.

I know in the state of Michigan you ARE required to carry either a state driver's liscence, or a state issued id card.

From what I understand, it is the same in most states.

When I had my liscence put on restricted driving back around... lord... 6 years ago, I think, they took my photo liscence, gave me a paper one, and I was required to get a MI id card, because they need photo ID still.


Also, I think Medical is a good thing to have on one.

What if you are in an accident? At the hospital, they need medical history of a person. If you are unconscious, and needing something, they need that info, and can't always get it. It can lead to them giving you meds you are allergic to. Thy might not realize you have a condition which prohibts certain medical procedures.

Overall, I would rather they have this then a retnal scan.

What exactly does that do that a normal finger print doesn't?

It would be about 10x easier if they would combine SS card with state id/liscence. One card, more information. Add to it a scan of a finger print that they can use to double check your print. Makes it so the card can't be transfered around. Put brief pertinent medical history on it. Blood type, donor info, and next of kin, as well.

Not something actually printed ON the card, cause that would make it to easily accessible to anyone, but something that when they scan the bar code, or swipe the magnetic strip, it comes up on the computer. MI got new liscences around when I turned 20, so almost 4 years ago. They have the magnetic credit card style swipe strips. All the cops have to do is swipe it, and they have our driving and criminal record, with name, and current address. Makes it alot quicker for them, then if they had to write everything down, and call it in.

Overall, while it does invade a td more on security, it's not like they are implanting coded ID's into everyone's forehead.

It does help curb things like alias's, and handing round ID's to friends, and what not. It helps them to know specifically the name, and address of anyone who boards an airplane. While it's not going to stop them from faking it, it will make it alot harder.


Privacy is not nessicerily a right, but a privlage. When it comes down to it, I would rather feela bit safer, then more private.

My guess is, that if this is even done, it's not going to be something like nazi checks at every corner, they will not be checking your shopping history, they won't even care.

The main uses are for purchasing tickets, whether on an airplane, boat, or train, geting basic info if you are pulled over, identifying you in case of an accident or even death.

If they have all finger prints on record because of this, it also makes it easier to identify people who were at the scene of the crime in what ever crimes may be comitted.

Anyway, overall, for me, I could care less. I don't do anything I feel I need to hide from the government, so my theory is why sweat it?

 

[Thumper]

Re: Re: National ID vs. Drivers license

Anyway, overall, for me, I could care less. I don't do anything I feel I need to hide from the government, so my theory is why sweat it?

This is always the first step into tyranny

As far as I know Ohio doesn't require it.

Curious to know what the penatlty in Michigan is for being caught without your papers...or ID.

Privacy is not a right? Then we can ignore the constitutional guarantees against illegal search and seizure? Then we can allow the police to monitor whoever they want, however they want, whenever they want? Afterall only the criminals need worry about what they are doing. Then it is OK for your employer to investigate everything in your background and fire you for anything they might not like, like maybe your frequenting a rather risque website?

I will not carry any form of ID other than my driver's license which allows me the privilege of driving.

If they need my blood type they can find it out in minutes. Medical history I can give them, if I am unable to then the situation is critical and I am sure whether I had knee surgery 6 years ago matters little. Medical histories could be used against you in employment. What company is going to hire someone with chronic medical problems? They would look at you as a liability and an increased insurance cost.

Do the benefits outweigh the cost? And just what are the benefits? It has been stated before that most of these crimes wouldn't have been prevented by a national ID system.

Orwell may have been prophetic just a bit wrong on the timing.

 

[Todd]

Thumper,

Your scaring me. Your sounding like a rational Logical me.

 

[Thumper]

Santa!

You mean..

There is a rational logical you.

 

[RoamingSpirit]

Re: Bad Idea(too many reasons to mention)

http://www.aclu.org/

I agree, BAD idea!

 

[BlondeBeauty]

Sheesh. Am I the only one wondering how I'm going to lug this billboard-sized ID card around?