National Guard; preservation of order

[Pure]

National Guard; preservation of order; where should they be?

Guarding one's state versus working in Iraq? Both?

CNN, 6 pm Aug 28, says 7500 Guardsmen are deployed in the hardest hit states.
My guess is that one or two times that (guardsmen from those states) are in Iraq 'guarding democracy.'

This thread is about the wisdom of the present division.



Division of tasks as of Aug 30 morning.

Iraq 1500-3000 Mississippi Guardmen (est.)
Mississippi (for Katrina) 850 Mississippi Guardsmen

Iraq 1500-3000 Louisiana Guardsmen (est.)
Louisiana (for Katrina) 3500 Louisiana Guardsmen

Iraq 1200 Alabama Guardsmen
Alabama (for Katrina) 350 Alabama Guardsmen



HURRICANE KATRINA

National Guard steps in to help handle hurricane

Knight Ridder/Tribune
Published August 30, 2005

WASHINGTON -- About 35 percent of Louisiana's National Guardsmen and 37 percent of Mississippi's have been deployed to Iraq or to support the war, but there are still enough troops to respond to Hurricane Katrina, a National Guard spokesman said Monday.

About 3,500 Army National Guardsmen in Louisiana have been activated to help with security, shelter, removing debris and distributing water and food, said spokesman Jack Harrison of the National Guard Bureau. That's about half the 6,500 troops who are available for the crisis.

More than 850 National Guardsmen in Mississippi have been activated for the hurricane. More than 7,000 are available, Harrison said.

About 134 Guardsmen in Alabama have positioned trucks, generators and other equipment in anticipation of being called to assist. More than 9,800 Guardsmen, about 70 percent of the state's total, are available, Harrison said.

In Alabama, Lt. Col. Robert Horton said 350 Guardsmen had been called up for duty and another 400 had been requested for state duty in the coming days.

Alabama has about 1,200 troops deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, but has 9,000 Guardsmen available for the emergency.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I've always been confused about this. I thought the Guard couldn't be called out unless there were an officially declared State of Emergency. I guess not, huh?

 

[Pure]

The National Guard and the Coast Guard--the latter a success story

two articles, updating
Strained US National Guard has hurricane relief role
30 Aug 2005 22:29:04 GMT

Source: Reuters

By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON, Aug 30 (Reuters) - National Guard troops played a leading role responding to Hurricane Katrina's destruction along the U.S. Gulf Coast on Tuesday, but thousands more who might have been part of the effort are deployed in Iraq.

About 7,500 National Guard soldiers and airmen have been mobilized by state governors for disaster relief in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

They were assisting in law enforcement, helping at shelters and in medical efforts, removing debris, providing power generation and other missions.

The Pentagon has sent about 40 percent of Mississippi's National Guard force to Iraq and 35 percent of Louisiana's -- a combined total of about 6,000 troops. But officials maintained this had not hurt the relief effort in those states, hardest hit by the hurricane.

The Army National Guard was formed as a part-time force, with its members living civilian lives while doing periodic military training. But the Pentagon has relied heavily on these troops in combat roles in Iraq.

Unlike soldiers in the part-time Army Reserve, made up of federal troops, those in the National Guard serve under the control of state governors usually for roles like disaster relief in their home states. They can be summoned to active-duty Army service in times of national need.

Some state governors have worried that the Pentagon's deployment of so many Guard troops has eroded their states' abilities to respond to disasters like wildfires and hurricanes. The Pentagon has promised never to deploy more than half of a state's guard force at any given time.

"It certainly means that they (the states) don't have the level of personnel that they might desire to handle some of these situations. They're doing with the minimum, not what might be optimal," said Cato Institute defense analyst Ted Carpenter.

The Pentagon said 78,000 of the roughly 440,000 National Guard troops nationwide are deployed overseas. Some troops and families have complained about the overseas combat duty and the Army National Guard is poised to miss its recruiting goals for a third straight year.

Two other states affected by the hurricane also have large numbers of their National Guard troops overseas; 23 percent of Alabama's and 26 percent of Florida's are deployed.

"None of the states impacted are stretched thin at all," said Jack Harrison, a National Guard Bureau spokesman at the Pentagon, noting there are about 31,500 guardsmen either activated or available to be activated in the four states.

Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, a Pentagon spokeswoman, said an interstate agreement allows states voluntarily to provide personnel and equipment to neighboring states in emergencies.

For example, the Arkansas National Guard has activated 350 troops to assist in Mississippi.

A number of Western states that rely on the National Guard to fight forest fires and handle other disasters have expressed concern about the impact of having a large number of those troops in Iraq.

Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer, a Democrat, has criticized the Bush administration's reliance on the National Guard, saying 44 percent of his state's guard was mobilized in Iraq, far above the 21 percent national average.

"The state of Montana does not have that many assets outside the National Guard," he said earlier this month. (Additional reporting by Adam Tanner)

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http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0536,ridgewayweb,67412,2.html
Mondo Washington

Leisurely Bush, Bumbling Feds
Only the Coast Guard looks good after Hurricane Katrina

by James Ridgeway
August 31st, 2005 12:54 PM


WASHINGTON, D.C. At his usual leisurely pace, George Bush has returned here to take a look at what's been going on down South. With dire warnings all over the news a good day before Hurricane Katrina struck, this former Texas governor, who ought to know firsthand what the weather can do to the oil industry, let alone human beings, remained on vacation until a day after the storm struck. Only after the levees in New Orleans were breached, inundating the city with floodwaters and stranding desperate people atop their houses, did the president return from his Crawford ranch to take up the reins of government.

Just as on 9-11 itself, the president preferred to wait until he achieved what his administration sometimes refers to as 'situational awareness' before taking any rash action, like sending a lot of drinking water to the stricken Gulf Coast, for example.

CNN showed him peering out of the window of Air Force One on Wednesday as the plane circled the flooded streets. Below, people bumped along on inner tubes or waved white sheets from their balconies. Overall, it's the same old story with federal agencies?too little too late. After all the talk and money spent on homeland security, the government is nowhere in handling the situation in this most strategically exposed part of the United States.

It?s a notorious cancer alley, that stretch of polluted lower Mississippi where oil and petrochemical plants are bunched together.The most disgraceful of all federal agencies is the Army Corps of Engineers, which methodically has worked to destroy the Mississippi wetlands, building dikes that have turned the river into a gushing sewer.

Now the engineers are left to drop piles of concrete into the breached dikes.Thanks to the Corps, most of nature?s own defense against storms, especially the wetlands, have been torn to pieces for landfill to provide for suburban development along the river?s shores, and along the Gulf.

In this hurricane, the one government agency on the ball is the Coast Guard, a highly decentralized agency now stuck within the Homeland Security maze. With only 40 aircraft, it pulled off over 1,000 rescues yesterday. The state-run National Guard is meant to be on call for such dire emergencies. And 7,500 members of the Guard were dispatched to help out in the aftermath of the hurricane.

But 35 percent of Louisiana?s Guard and 40 percent of Mississippi?s Guard are in Iraq. About a quarter of the Florida and Alabama Guard are in Iraq. The Pentagon said 78,000 of the roughly 440,000 National Guard troops nationwide are deployed overseas. Because of the lengthy hardship service and rising death tolls, Guard recruitement has declined, meaning among other things that units responding to disasters will be filled at lower numbers than now.

"None of the states impacted are stretched thin at all," Jack Harrison, a National Guard Bureau spokesman at the Pentagon, told Reuters. He said there are some 31,500 guardsmen either activated or available to be activated in the four states. But Western governors who depend on Guard units to fight forest fires already have complained about reduced strength.

Diverted from its original function of maritime safety to such tasks as the war on drugs and lately the war on terror, the Coast Guard has shined. Remember, it was the Coast Guard commander in New York who organized one of the most extraordinary operations maritime rescues since Dunkirk on 9-11, pulling together,ferries,tugs, yachts, and all sorts of other boats to evacuate half a million people from downtow New York. "I have long thought the Coast Guard was a good model of how you can have devolution within the federal government," said Sam Smith, editor of the online daily Progressive Review and himself a former operations officer on a cutter. "The National Park Service has something of the same quality. Interestingly, they are two of the best regarded federal agencies."

Additional reporting: Isabel Huacuga, David Botti go to next article in news ->



Copyright © 2005 Village Voice Media, Inc., 36 Cooper Square, New York, NY 10003 The Village Voice and Voice are registered trademarks. All rights reserved. View our privacy policy.

 

[Weird Harold]

...
Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer, a Democrat, has criticized the Bush administration's reliance on the National Guard, saying 44 percent of his state's guard was mobilized in Iraq, far above the 21 percent national average....

FWIW, Gov Schweitzer should be blaming Pres. Carter for giving all of his sucessors, including Pres. Bush, no choice but to to rely heavily on the national guard. The military realignment program named "Total Force" took a lot of functions away from the active duty forces and gave them entirelyto the National Guard and Reserve to save money and reduce the size of the active duty components.

For example, almost all military transportation units are in the national guard and reserve components because those functions are filled by civilian commercial carriers within the US during peacetime and aren't needed on a full-time basis.

The second article is so biased that it isn't really worth commenting on.

Both articles do accurately report the numbers, but conveniently don't highlight that the numbers being activated for disaster relief are still far short of the numbers available.

Also, neither article mentions that the Coast Guard has roughly the same percentage of it's forces deployed in the middle east as the National Guard does.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The problem with Katrina isn't lack of man power. Or lack of equiptment. It's simply the scope and scale are overwhelming.

In Mississippi, you have power out to 80% of the state. Cell towers down. Communications are at the very best hit and miss. It gets progressively worse as you move south, with trees down, roads blocked, creeks and strams swollen to over flowing, bridges out, etc. Were all of our guardsmen ome, simply calling them up would be a nightmare. Units located on the coast wouldn't be able to respond, units located in the northern part of the state might take days to get the word and assemble. I stopped in the little town of Montipilier on my way to my grandmother's old place to see what the damage was. Folks there didn't even know levees had been breached in New orleans. It was like walking back in time. Their last news was before the hurricane came ashore. After that? The world might as well have ceased to exist. People are back to a preindustrial agrarian society again, going to bed withthe sun because there isn't much you can do by lantern light and fuel is scarce. People are running generators, but they are generally only using them to keep freezers & fridges running. TV, radio, Ac are out because they hog energy and all the local gas stations are closed, either from lack of electricty or simply because they sold out of gas. Wlamarts are empty, as are gorceries, not neccissarily because of runs on the commodoties, but because deliveries aren't coming in.

I imagine Louisianna is in better shape in the north but in worse shape in its southern parishes.

Throughout this state, the words you can't get there from here are literally true. Guardsmen, relief supplies, aide workers, volunteers are meeting the same frustration. You can't cross where the bridge is out and while locals have used their own chainsaws to clear roads, it takes time and effort to ford a swollen stream when the bridge is gone.

 

[Huckleman2000]

The problem with Katrina isn't lack of man power. Or lack of equiptment. It's simply the scope and scale are overwhelming...

So more manpower and equipment doesn't address the overwhelming scope and scale? What, then, are they lacking in terms of resources to deal with this? If not manpower and equipment, what is supposed to address this overwhelming disaster?

I would imagine that the men (trained to deal with natural disasters) and equipment (including high-wheel vehicles and generators) would be very welcome at this point, or certainly within the next several days. Maybe they would make it seem less overwhelming.

 

[Pure]

Unimaginable and unplanned

In Mississippi, you have power out to 80% of the state. Cell towers down. Communications are at the very best hit and miss. It gets progressively worse as you move south, with trees down, roads blocked, creeks and strams swollen to over flowing, bridges out, etc. Were all of our guardsmen [h]ome, simply calling them up would be a nightmare.

So we are talking about a group for disaster relief that must be called on homephones. That must coordinate efforts, using payphones and cellphones.

Colleen, maybe you can tell how an army unit in Iraq communicates within itself and to its command?

----

Harold, those sound like good points; I know the role of the Guard has changed since Vietnam, but I think few are aware of the weird integration of national guard with the Army that has occurred. (I say weird, because as Colly implies, it seems like Guard units at home, are not really formed or even formable; its guys with some training, at home (in normal cases) waiting for phone calls to tell them where to go and what to do. Assuming the process started under Carter [in the 1970s], I wonder why you don't mention steps taken or not taken by all successors, starting with RR and including, one might think the "Homeland Security" folks with supposedly cabinet level organization.

FWIW, Gov Schweitzer should be blaming Pres. Carter for giving all of his sucessors, including Pres. Bush, no choice but to to rely heavily on the national guard. The military realignment program named "Total Force" took a lot of functions away from the active duty forces and gave them entirelyto the National Guard and Reserve to save money and reduce the size of the active duty components.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

In Mississippi, you have power out to 80% of the state. Cell towers down. Communications are at the very best hit and miss. It gets progressively worse as you move south, with trees down, roads blocked, creeks and strams swollen to over flowing, bridges out, etc. Were all of our guardsmen [h]ome, simply calling them up would be a nightmare.

So we are talking about a group for disaster relief that must be called on homephones. That must coordinate efforts, using payphones and cellphones.

Colleen, maybe you can tell how an army unit in Iraq communicates within itself and to its command?

----

Harold, those sound like good points; I know the role of the Guard has changed since Vietnam, but I think few are aware of the weird integration of national guard with the Army that has occurred. (I say weird, because as Colly implies, it seems like Guard units at home, are not really formed or even formable; its guys with some training, at home (in normal cases) waiting for phone calls to tell them where to go and what to do. Assuming the process started under Carter [in the 1970s], I wonder why you don't mention steps taken or not taken by all successors, starting with RR and including, one might think the "Homeland Security" folks with supposedly cabinet level organization.

FWIW, Gov Schweitzer should be blaming Pres. Carter for giving all of his sucessors, including Pres. Bush, no choice but to to rely heavily on the national guard. The military realignment program named "Total Force" took a lot of functions away from the active duty forces and gave them entirelyto the National Guard and Reserve to save money and reduce the size of the active duty components.

If I understand what I have been hearing, even satellite phones are having problems here.

All I am saying J, is that manpower isn't the main issue to getting aide in. A 150 man bridge building battallion will take a certain amount of time to get a bridge over a stream done. 1500 men will take the same amount of time because only so many can be working on it, the rest are just sitting there waiting. If manpower were the problem, they could call up more guardsmen. there are men avialable, both in this state and neighboring states. Similarly, clearing a downed tree or power line, or part of a house from the roadway is time intensive.

It's going to take time to get into the hardest hit areas. I know people are frustrated and angry who are in those areas. But overland is really the only way to bring in and distribute bulk supplies. If you consider for just a moment that power is out throught much of mississippi, you will see that moving supplies westward overland requires not only opening roads, but bringing your own supplies of fuel. There are still aide workers in B'ham who were brought there before the storm, champing at the bit to get to helping, but short of vtol transport, isolated from those in need. the logistical nightmare is mind boggling. Adding more people o be moved in, simply expands how many supplies you have to bring with you to be self sustaining, with ever man's consuption needs taking away from the total of relief supplies you are able to move in with the initial convoys.

 

[Weird Harold]

So we are talking about a group for disaster relief that must be called on homephones. That must coordinate efforts, using payphones and cellphones.

Colleen, maybe you can tell how an army unit in Iraq communicates within itself and to its command?

Pure, the Recall plan for a guard unit or for an active duty unit overseas in places like Germany, England, or Korea (where unit members don't all live on the base) is supposed to be designed to work even if normal communications channels are out with each person notified being responsible for calling or physically notifiying two or more people in the recall chain. In addition, the normal Guard recall plan relies to some extent on mass-media announcements.

The problem the Guard units in the affected areas face is a disruption normal communications channels AND a disruption of normal tranportation routes. It's not an insurmountable problem, but since 99% of the recall process has to revert to the technology Paul Revere used, it takes a while to get the word out.

The Units in Iraq don't have or need a recall plan, because there are no troops living on the economy so communications with off-duty troops isn't a problem, so how they communicate within a unit isn't relevant to the problem of assembling a unit that is spread throughthe civilian infrastructure.

Harold, those sound like good points; I know the role of the Guard has changed since Vietnam, but I think few are aware of the weird integration of national guard with the Army that has occurred. (I say weird, because as Colly implies, it seems like Guard units at home, are not really formed or even formable; its guys with some training, at home (in normal cases) waiting for phone calls to tell them where to go and what to do. Assuming the process started under Carter [in the 1970s], I wonder why you don't mention steps taken or not taken by all successors, starting with RR and including, one might think the "Homeland Security" folks with supposedly cabinet level organization.[/i]

Total Force isn't really "Weird" situation, because it actually makes a lot of sense and works well for the most part. It's just the fact that a governor and nominal commander of a portion of those integrated units doesn't understand how they fit into the Total Force concept that irks me.

I don't really expect the man-on-the-street to understand how integrated the Guard and Reserve forces are, or even the average media hack -- although an average media hack should do a bit of research if they're going to write about the way the Guard and Reserve are being used.

All of Pres Carter's successors have tinkered with the balance to some extent but their tinkering didn't change the essential nature of the Total Force re-organization -- although military budgets tend to treat the National Guard and Reserve as a poor step-relations by shifting costs to the States from the national budget.

Total Force is a good idea for the most part, but the execution and support of the concept leaves a lot to be desired because so few polititicians at any level understand how it's supposed to work. Reagan and GHWB understood the concept and re-equipped the Guard and Reserves. Clinton didn't understand the concept and short-changed the Guard and Reserve in his military budgets (more so than he short-changed the active duty forces, that is.)

To complicate matters, the National Guard is largely funded and controlled by the individual States and that results in political "turf wars" -- like the current controversy over base closings and realignments involving Guard units.

The integration of the National Guard and Reserves into the "Total Force" is Pres Carter's idea and legacy; his successors have simply dealt with the organization they inherited from him. His successors are responsible for the failings in Guard readiness and equipment, but only as an adjunct to their policies on military readiness and equipment as a whole.

I didn't mention any Pres Carter's successors influence on the integration of the National Guard into the Total Force, because they really are not relevant to the reasons that 40% of the National Guard troops and equipment are in Iraq and not available for disaster relief -- that the National Guard is deployed to Iraq at all is solely because of Pres Carter's Total Force reorganization of the military and people who should know that are blaming Pres Bush for something he had no choice about.

 

[R. Richard]

One thing that you "throw more manpower at the problem" people are overlooking is that the additional manpower has to be transported fed, housed and latrined. All of this in an area where there are severe fuel shortages, food and water shortages and destroyed housing. Adding a lot more manpower simply exacerbates the existing shortages.

 

[LadyJeanne]

If I understand what I have been hearing, even satellite phones are having problems here.

All I am saying J, is that manpower isn't the main issue to getting aide in. A 150 man bridge building battallion will take a certain amount of time to get a bridge over a stream done. 1500 men will take the same amount of time because only so many can be working on it, the rest are just sitting there waiting. If manpower were the problem, they could call up more guardsmen. there are men avialable, both in this state and neighboring states. Similarly, clearing a downed tree or power line, or part of a house from the roadway is time intensive.

It's going to take time to get into the hardest hit areas. I know people are frustrated and angry who are in those areas. But overland is really the only way to bring in and distribute bulk supplies. If you consider for just a moment that power is out throught much of mississippi, you will see that moving supplies westward overland requires not only opening roads, but bringing your own supplies of fuel. There are still aide workers in B'ham who were brought there before the storm, champing at the bit to get to helping, but short of vtol transport, isolated from those in need. the logistical nightmare is mind boggling. Adding more people o be moved in, simply expands how many supplies you have to bring with you to be self sustaining, with ever man's consuption needs taking away from the total of relief supplies you are able to move in with the initial convoys.

I'm sure there's a flaw in my thinking, but are the waterways being used? Float a few ships down the Mississippi River with people and supplies? Send a few cruise ships from Florida, across the Gulf, and give people temporary shelter inside? They are floating hotels designed to carry lots of food...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I'm sure there's a flaw in my thinking, but are the waterways being used? Float a few ships down the Mississippi River with people and supplies? Send a few cruise ships from Florida, across the Gulf, and give people temporary shelter inside? They are floating hotels designed to carry lots of food...

Floating down the mississippi sounds good, until you ask, where are you going to offload? Who is going to do the stevadoring? Once it is off loaded, how will you get it to the people in need? Basically, you are back to using vtol's to move supplies and while some of them are designed to do just that, most have a pretty meagre hauling capacity.

Cruise ships would face an even more daunting task, as they would have to come up the Mississippi. Assuming you could get them into the port of New orleans, you still have to get the people to the ships and again, you are basically talking air lift.

I'll also say that after the vandalisim in the super dome, rioting, lawlessness, looting and pretty wanton destruction going on, you would have to provide a lot of security or a bond for damages before most cruise lines would put a luxury ship like say the Conquest at your disposal.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Floating down the mississippi sounds good, until you ask, where are you going to offload? Who is going to do the stevadoring? Once it is off loaded, how will you get it to the people in need? Basically, you are back to using vtol's to move supplies and while some of them are designed to do just that, most have a pretty meagre hauling capacity.

Cruise ships would face an even more daunting task, as they would have to come up the Mississippi. Assuming you could get them into the port of New orleans, you still have to get the people to the ships and again, you are basically talking air lift.

I'll also say that after the vandalisim in the super dome, rioting, lawlessness, looting and pretty wanton destruction going on, you would have to provide a lot of security or a bond for damages before most cruise lines would put a luxury ship like say the Conquest at your disposal.

It's always the 'last mile' that is the problem. As this is going to get worse before it gets better for the victims, I was trying to think of every possibility. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Weird Harold]

I'm sure there's a flaw in my thinking, but are the waterways being used? Float a few ships down the Mississippi River with people and supplies? Send a few cruise ships from Florida, across the Gulf, and give people temporary shelter inside? They are floating hotels designed to carry lots of food...

The flaw in your thinking is that the government doesn't own any of those kind of assets -- what assests they do have, hospitial ships and helicopter carriers are either already at work or on the way -- and the government can't commandeer assets outside of the disaster area.

Another problem with using waterways is the damage to the port facilities. I'm sure that they're a priority for repair once the search and rescue phase is under control. Likewise, the rail system is probably not being used at the moment because the rail yards are under water.

Perhaps suggesting to the Cruise lines that they donate a liner or two each might get some voluntary action on your excellent suggestion, but it's not something that the government can just order to happen.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It's always the 'last mile' that is the problem. As this is going to get worse before it gets better for the victims, I was trying to think of every possibility. Back to the drawing board.

In this case, you run smack up against it. Even if you can arrange bulk delivery of goods, getting it into places where roads are out drags you back to using aircraft. And once you are there, you are just stuck with the limited capacity to haul and deliver you get from craft not designed to do that. Even those craft designed to haul, aren't big enough or numerous enough to make a dent in the misery.

Basically, we are just going to have to clear the roads, repair the bridges and get the supplies in overland. And as heart wrenching as it is, that's going to take time.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Where are the heavy-lift helicopters that could ferry in large containers of potable water (in bottles) and MRE’s?

They should have positioned some loads in the dry places around the Superdome yesterday, at the latest.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Where are the heavy-lift helicopters that could ferry in large containers of potable water (in bottles) and MRE’s?

They should have positioned some loads in the dry places around the Superdome yesterday, at the latest.

Well, Mississippi has two major air bases, keesler in the south and Columbus afb in the north. Keesler got pummeled and columbus is set up for a jet fighter air national guard unit IIRC. The air base with heavy lift choppers isn't a major one, but a national guard facility. Unfortuneately it's located at Meridian and from what I've seen it got hammered almost as badly as Keesler.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

From where did the helicopters that the ACE was using to drop huge sand bags into the levee come?

Since they say it will take up to six months before the water subsides, don't you think their priorities are a bit skewed, if not to say screwed

 

[Colleen Thomas]

From where did the helicopters that the ACE was using to drop huge sand bags into the levee come?

Since they say it will take up to six months before the water subsides, don't you think their priorities are a bit skewed, if not to say screwed

I would guess they were out of Texas or Arkansas. I'm really not up on the disposition of air national guard units. I doubt the unit at Meridian is air worthy, but they could be.

You have to get the levees shored up. From what I see, the water level has now equaled with that in Ponchutrain. If, however, it rains, and the lake level rises, so too will the water in the city. I don't see that as a skewed priority. A raised water level will cause more destruction and possibly cost more lives.

Edited to add: The footage I just saw was of Chinooks. That would make them most likely a Marine Corps. reserve unit. Since the one at Jackson is artillery, I'm going to hazard a guess those are from the Northern Alabama. I think there is a Marine Corps reserve unit at Muscle Shoales or huntsville maybe?

 

[Wildcard Ky]

They're talking about breaking other levees that are still in tact to lower the water level.

Another consideration that no one has mentioned yet is that engineers still aren't sure what to do in a lot of areas. Time needs to be given for plans to be formulated.

The area of catastrophic damage covers something like 90,000 square miles. Most of this 90,000 square miles is inaccessible at the moment. We could call up every able body in every guard and reserve unit in America and still not be able to get everyone everything they need when they need it. There are only so many helicopters to go around. You have to have places to land and refuel the helicopters. Nevermind the supplies, how do you get that much fuel into a place that is inaccessible and has no power?

The sheer logistics in a disaster this big are nearly incomprehensible. Time needs to be taken for planning, prioritizing, getting equipment into place and implementing the plan.

Everyone agrees that the total effort in restoration may take a decade. We're only a few days into it. It will take time.

 

[Couture]

Where are the heavy-lift helicopters that could ferry in large containers of potable water (in bottles) and MRE’s?

They should have positioned some loads in the dry places around the Superdome yesterday, at the latest.

One of these?

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048354537235_2003/03/24/dayfive06,0.jpg

 

[Pure]

Updates

From CNN around 10 pm EDT, Thurs.

NOrleans, LA: Police defending a station, with snipers on a the roof; 20-50% not reporting for duty. Other stations under assault (for the guns and supplies?). Armed gangs robbing and raping.

Governor calling for 30-40,000 troops. Generally, the problem of order is being addressed on an ad hoc basis.

Some busses making way to Houston. Generally there seem to be no clear organized plans for evacuation of the people from the worst hit areas

Some Medivac helicopters getting sniper fire. I dont' have a sense of any coordinated medical evacuation to say, the hundreds of hospitals in the adjacent unaffected areas and states.

As some asked in this thread, in the secure areas, like the Dome, why can't helicopters bring in water and basic foods.

I believe it was the Gov of Texas who commandeered the Astrodome and got that set up. I don't see much other evidence of leadership, state or national.

Newspaper headline, this morn: CHAOS

 

[Huckleman2000]

I'm sorry to point this out, but like an internet graphic that gets progressively less blurry as more information arrives to complete the picture, each passing hour reveals deeper incompetence in the planning and execution of Federal assistance, and willful ignorance of preventative measures that could have been taken to ameliorate this disaster.

Major sorties flown over Iraq and Afghanistan originated in the continental U.S.! To imply that damage to bases in the immediate damaged area presents an insurmountable barrier to airlift basic supplies into the city is ludicrous. The problem isn't that damage is so great that no one can do anything - CNN and all major networks have crews broadcasting from there! TUCKER FREAKIN' CARLSON IS THERE WITH BIG RUBBER BOOTS! AND HE'S ON MSNBC!

The Federal response to this point has been abyssmal, and to argue otherwise is clinging to a pitiful illusion. Thousands of people made their way through the flood to the Superdome and the Convention Center. Some buses have been able to transport people from those points to the Astrodome. Obviously, a few people have been saved. How can more resources not help this situation?

 

[Weird Harold]

Major sorties flown over Iraq and Afghanistan originated in the continental U.S.! To imply that damage to bases in the immediate damaged area presents an insurmountable barrier to airlift basic supplies into the city is ludicrous.

I don't think NO needs anything B1's and B52's can deliver and anything else needs some place to land and refuel close enough that they can fly into NO and return on one load of fuel.

Supplies ARE being airlifted into the area, but assholes keep shooting at the helicopters trying to deliver them and/or hijacking the trucks.

Disaster relief plans in the US aren't supposed to have to account for snipers and hijackers so plans have to change on the fly to deal with them.

FWIW, as far as I can tell, relief efforts outside of New Orleans are proceeding relatively smoothly if slower than might be hoped for.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I don’t know the type, make, or model, but I saw a lot of helicopters picking people off the roofs of houses (as well as that big honking one ferrying that sandbag.)

Perhaps I am backward about military equipment, but it seems to me that it would be as easy to lower few big loads of bottled water and MRE down to the people at the Superdome as it is to pick people off roofs.

Perhaps, as I am beginning to suspect, taxpayers with houses have a greater intrinsic value than indigent renters, but how many trips would it take to ensure that the infants, children, old people and invalids had water and a little food?

After all, it was to the Superdome that the local government evacuated them, since they could not evacuate themselves.