My suggestions for writing in second person

[amalgam]

what sort of scenarios are appropriate for that POV?

If you're going to go by my train of thought, then almost anything will work in 2nd that will work in 3rd. The only caveat is when writing about the past, which goes right into the next topic:

In reading a second person POV, is it jarring to read what "you" think?

Absolutely. A 2POV writer may use the word "you," but when he describes all things about me that are clearly wrong, I know that the "you" she's talking about isn't me at all. I say, if the "you' in the story is already defined, why bother writing in 2POV in the first place?

Writing about the past in 2POV works just like assigning qualities and thoughts to the reader, but is different in that the "you" is not actively taking part. You might be able to believe that you had done or thought some things before-- say, went to summer school or liked icecream-- but it can't go too far before it runs into the same problems.

How about secrets that "you" know (in the narrative) and other characters don't?

There's nothing better-- and more dangerous-- than secrets in 2POV. There's no problem with the main character having exclusive knowledge, provided that the story stays with that person. It gets tricky when secondary characters know things that the reader doesn't, since you can't mention these things. But it's great if you're writing something of a mystery that needs to be unraveled. Then the reader can go along with ride and learn as the character does.

Should the story provide options for "you" to be good or bad, virtuous or vicious... or, this being CHYOO, can we just assume various degrees of bad behaviour?

I don't think we should assume what the reader's intentions would be. I'm all for the character deciding whether to take the high road or the low road.

Must the thread end every time there is something the main character says or does? Does a series of decisions in the course of one thread harm the story?

I believe that 2POV is all about giving choices to the reader, but too many chocies can be ridiculous. I don't like the CHYOOs that have you customize a character or situation, such as Create A Fembot because you go through so many options, and it's just not practical for this medium.

I try to give a certain amount of reading before any decisions come up, unless they are important decisions. I mean, I don't want to know whether my reader wants pie or cake at the local bakery, unless, of course, it's actually pertinent to the plot!

I also don't want my reader to have to decide every little thing. There's no need to stop the thread for a single dialog option, for example. Rather, I try to ask the reader general questions, or give options that will lead to a general mood. When I wrote MC Adventure! I had the following situation: a college professor gives a lecture about the oppression of women, and the merits of radical/revolutionary feminism. The reader has three options:

1) Nod silently.
2) Laugh.
3) Ask a critical question.

The results are as follows:

1) I assume that if the reader chooses this, then the reader agrees with the professor's lecture, and all dialog or actions in the following thread are cordial and agreeable.

2) I assume that if the reader thinks the lecture is laughable, then the reader is vehemently opposed to the ideas being presented, and so the following dialog between the professor and the main character is caustic and abusive. The class rightfully turns against the main character, and thereafter descriptions of women tend to be misogynistic and angry.

3) This is the middle-of-the-road choice. The reader speaks his mind but is respectful. In this situation, I wrote that the professor manipulates the class and unfairly turns it against the main character. Thereafter the story is indecisive and has the potential to fall to either extreme, or none at all.

So what this means is that you can use your options to learn about your reader, and thus make small decisions on his behalf...


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I'm probably the only person advocating this stuff, but I hope that it helps you in your writing. Feel free to email/PM me if you want a proofer.

 

[jakelyon]

You scare me!!

You guys all sound so smart about writing in 2nd person I am terrified to ever try it again! I think I will just stick to nice safe easy to deal with 3rd person.

 

[Torg]

You guys all sound so smart about writing in 2nd person I am terrified to ever try it again! I think I will just stick to nice safe easy to deal with 3rd person.

Don't worry, Jakelyon. I ignore at least half to three-quarters of the 'rules' described above. As long as the editor approves it, I'm not too concerned about 2nd person. If they make a comment about my second person threads putting thoughts and emotions into them, then I'll make adjustments. But I see nothing wrong with ascribing things to the 'you', such as physical attributes and feelings.

I also somtimes break threads at points where the main character is not making a decision, but where another actor in the story is, and ask the reader to choose. I think of the choices being for the reader to determine what happens in the story, not just choosing what the character does.

 

[gizmoo69]

While I agree with the rules in principle, to use them can be quite difficult and potentially have an impact on the quality of the story. When I wrote Vampire Fledgling I was very careful to not impose thoughts or feelings on the reader. The trouble with that is that sometimes it's unavoidable without spoiling the flow of the story. For instance, There are several points in the story where 'you' are having a conversation with someone. There are probably plenty of points where the reader could ask "Would I really say that?" but to include an option of what to say for each piece of dialogue when it is irrelevant to the bigger picture would ruin the flow of the story.

There's also a risk of making a very 2-dimensional character. Look at Tolkien. He had a fantastic imagination, but was rubbish at character devlopment because he never really delved into what each character was thinking at any given point. The same is true for any story. To create a well-rounded charater, you need to sometimes discuss reactions to situations: thoughts, feelings, etc., and there is only so much the writer can "read" from the reader's choices.

The way I see it, 2nd POV is a role play. The POV is just that: the point of view. It may say 'you' but it's not always you. You're just looking through the protagonist's eyes. Going back to Vampire Fledgling, you play a vampire in London. You're probably not a vampire, and you probably don't live in London, but it's still (hopefully) possible to become immersed in the story.

Well, that's my two cents.

 

[amalgam]

Yes, it is a lot harder to write the way I preach, and it doesn't cover all the bases. No, you can't let the reader decide everything. It's a very, very, fine touch. What I am ultimately encouraging is the diversification of the writing styles, because the difference between them is not simply choice of pronoun. But this is exactly how most people write: some kind of uber-POV taken from the 3rd-person textbook. I just don't see a reason to write in 2POV if you're going to write it the same way as a 3POV, no matter the weaknesses of 2nd person. What about the strengths? The potential?

Now, I swear-- unless someone wants to ask me something, seeing as I'm the jackass that started all this-- this is the last you'll have to read from me on the subject ever again! That's a promise.

Let us celebrate by...

 

[24ward]

I think I see where you are going, amalgam. 2POV is the "classic choose your own adventure" pronoun. The protaganist is a blank slate, because the 'you' reading it could be a male or female, good or evil, from any culture in the world.

However, there is always a mission, something that propels the plot forward. "You always wanted to be a super hero." "You can't believe your eyes." I seem to recall those books containing any number of those sorts of... characterization.

With CHYOO, in my opinion, there should be some constraint on the 2POV in terms of character or ahem... content of the site []. Is it jarring to assume the protaganist is a man, for example? Because that would irk female readers, but is the sort of assumption probably integral to the sort of plot developed on CHYOO. Also, how could there be a domestic setting in a 2POV, when each of us lives in different circumstances in different cities around the world?

How about a 2POV that starts with a 1-page "backstory" that says: look, for the purposes of this story, you are a man, you are attractive, and you are a pervert. AND you're from here, this is your past, and now you live here, and this is what is happening in your life right now. Sign up with that, and away we go...

Or blank slates only?

amalgam, please come back for one more reply! []

 

[TJChurch]

My PPPs (personl pet peeves) are the 2P stories that say (under the title) they are M-or-F, & then all the choices, pronouns, etc. are only one gender.

 

[gizmoo69]

My PPPs (personl pet peeves) are the 2P stories that say (under the title) they are M-or-F, & then all the choices, pronouns, etc. are only one gender.

Surely that's where you come in as a CHYOOster. You can simply write a new thread tree in the other gender.

The same applies to you, 24ward. If you are concerned that a story is getting too set in a certain type of character, or want it to feel more like yourself, simply add a new thread and inlcude your own idiosyncracies. Of course, for the sake of continuity in the story, you couldn't jump from living in the 'burbs to living in a country manor, but there is always some leeway in CHYOO. To add a cheesy kids' TV spin to it, you're only limited by your imagination.

I think the whole worry that writing a story as a specific gender might upset the other gender is unfounded. If you read the story summary, you can always find out the gender of the protagonist. You can even search for stories written only in one gender. However, it is true that there are a disproportionate amount of stories written from a male perspective. I think that's just a byproduct of the disproportionately high male presence in CHYOO.

As for the backstory idea, surely that's what the guidelines on the story summary page are for?

 

[TJChurch]

Surely that's where you come in as a CHYOOster. You can simply write a new thread tree in the other gender.

Except that you probably would/might have to do so early in the story, or some other place where there isn't an "Add New Thread" option... Or it may not get approved by the author/editor.

 

[amalgam]

Is it jarring to assume the protaganist is a man, for example? Because that would irk female readers, but is the sort of assumption probably integral to the sort of plot developed on CHYOO. Also, how could there be a domestic setting in a 2POV, when each of us lives in different circumstances in different cities around the world?

How about a 2POV that starts with a 1-page "backstory" that says: look, for the purposes of this story, you are a man, you are attractive, and you are a pervert. AND you're from here, this is your past, and now you live here, and this is what is happening in your life right now. Sign up with that, and away we go...

It's certainly unreasonable to write for a 100% blank slate, so naturally we should find certain assumptions fair, like the gender of the reader. Chyoo is, at heart, an erotica site, so it's necessary that the gender is defined. The reader has to know these things, and does, because Chyoo allows us to specify a gender for the POV.

And what about the fact that I'm not a superhero, or a woman, or a skilled, high-priced courtesan? I think it's pretty silly when people think my philosophy precludes stories outside the realm of reality or an individual reader's reality. How could you write at all? It's impossible, unless the only person meant to read it is yourself.

There's a difference between the situation we drop our readers into and the thoughts and feelings we drop into their brains. 2POV should transform the reader's surroundings and superficial identity, but it shouldn't alter who the reader is inside. Life situations can and do change, but personalities are not as plastic. When an author writes too much about what "I" am thinking or feeling, my opportunity to interpret the story with my own head is stolen.

When you read my story, I want you to play who you want to play. You are not 24ward, nor are you a superhero, you are 24ward with super powers; and the variable called "24ward" is defined by none other than you, 24ward, my reader. I won't interfere with the persona you've adopted by telling you what your persona is. If I do, I'll do so in as artful a way as I can, to reduce and variegate the utility of the ubiquitous pronoun "you," to create as immersive a read as possible, to differentiate the second-person POV from the other POVs.

How about a 2POV that starts with a 1-page "backstory" that says: look, for the purposes of this story, you are a man, you are attractive, and you are a pervert. AND you're from here, this is your past, and now you live here, and this is what is happening in your life right now. Sign up with that, and away we go...

I'm sure background synopses work fine, but even then, they'd have to be written well; you still wouldn't want to fill that with "You blabla..." sentences.

Thanks for your interest. I hope that this will help you learn something in one direction or the other.

 

[amalgam]

If you are concerned that a story is getting too set in a certain type of character, or want it to feel more like yourself, simply add a new thread and inlcude your own idiosyncracies. Of course, for the sake of continuity in the story, you couldn't jump from living in the 'burbs to living in a country manor, but there is always some leeway in CHYOO.

This could work, but the matter of continuity is a bigger concern than that. If you add a thread that doesn't line up personality-wise to the previous passage, your submission may be rejected. If it is not, future readers will go down the path that has been created and note the (probably unrationalized) discrepency between "you-earlier" and "you-later." This is one reason that I advocate more neutral tellings of second-person stories.

As for the backstory idea, surely that's what the guidelines on the story summary page are for?

Yah, that makes sense to me.