My Second Gangbang - Nov. 30, 2001

[Mickie]

Now back to the regular scheduled day

The story for this week is REDWAVE's My Second Gangbang . It can be found in the Group Sex category.

The link -- http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=25524


*** a note -- this story was miscategorized, in my opinion. It should have been listed under 'Gay Male'.

Mickie

 

[REDWAVE]

GB2

Oh, boy-- I'm so excited! My story's finally up! This one is my "problem child." I'm satisfied with the success of "My First Gangbang" and "Slutty Cockpig." My other two stories both have low ratings, but "A Kinky Valentine" has gotten a lot of views, and I understand why these two stories aren't popular with Literotica readers. Neither one is a good "stroke story." They both have some sex in them, but they were written more to appeal to the intellect than the libido. But "My Second Gangbang" has got me totally puzzled. It's gotten the fewest views of any of my stories here (barely over 3000 now), and very few votes. After the success of "My First Gangbang," I thought this follow-up story would also be popular, maybe even more popular, because the action is nastier. Instead, it's been a total flop. Why?

The only thing I can think of is it was buried way down the list when it was first put on, and nobody bothered scrolling down that far to even see it. I've noticed that stories tend to get read the most right after they're first put on-- when they're "fresh meat," so to speak-- and after a few days, the number of readers dwindles to a trickle.

Anyway, to begin the discussion, this story isn't everyone's cup of tea, I realize-- most people aren't into gay gangbangs. But for those who do find that kind of sex exciting, it's a hot, nasty stroke story. It begins with a little one-on-one action, lulls for a while, and then gets hotter at the end with the gangbang, culminating in-- well, I won't spoil it for those who haven't read it.

To the extent this story has any literary merit, I think it lies in the character of Red, and the interaction between him and Steve, the narrator. In fact, this story is part of a trilogy of stories-- "Slutty Cockpig," "My First Gangbang," and this one. I don't expect anyone to read all three, so I'll briefly summarize the other two.

"Slutty Cockpig" is a character study of a single gay male whose only sexual outlet is casual, anonymous sex in places like bathhouses and adult theaters. His true despair and anguish only come out in the last line: "I can get dick anytime I want, but I'm starved for affection." In the next story (GB1), he meets Red and finds some of that affection he's starving for-- but it's mixed with domination and abuse-- or, at least, what some people would call abuse.

The core of this story, in my opinion, is the part in the middle where Steve and Red are just talking. That's where the subversive element comes in the most strongly, although the whole story's meant to be subversive. By bringing out that Steve is a lawyer-- a professional-- and thus much better off than most people, and his work situation still stinks, I'm trying to bring home to people just how shitty their jobs are, how badly they're treated at work, how much they resent that treatment, and how they dare not express that resentment (at least, not at work) because then their employers will retaliate against them, likely fire them. I like my smut served up with a little subversion!

So let me know everything you think is wrong with this story. Feel free to fire at will! As you know from reading some of my BB posts, I'm pretty fuckin' thick-skinned!

REDWAVE

 

[Jocund Day]

Well done, Comrade. My bourgeois sensibilities have been thoroughly and indelibly offended by this disgusting bit of sexual subversion. Please accept my congratulations and my assurance that no further exposure to your work will be necessary. I leave my desk now to heave every tall cocktail glass in the pantry directly and forcefully into the fireplace.

Das Vidanya,
JD

A note for both Redwave and Mickie: This story is incorrectly categorized (as are many others). It obviously belongs under "Gay Male" (perhaps even "Extreme"). There are topics portrayed on this site that users should be allowed to shield themselves from via the category list. The author who surprises his reader with non-catagoric subject matter under the banner of "subversion" betrays only contempt for his audience. The administrator who allows such mis-catagorization in the interests of traffic count betrays only his own avarice.
____________________________
"First coffee. Then a bowel movement. Then the muse joins me." Gore Vidal

 

[Mickie]

Okay, I've read it. I have a tendency to agree with JD, it's over the top for even myself, but then, I prefer something a little less meant to shock merely for shock's sake. The intent of the work was to what?

If it was supposed to produce arousal, it failed in me. That's my taste. I prefer more romance, even in gay stories. It should have been listed under extreme, in my opinion. In fact, Redwave, I'd see if I couldn't have that changed at least to gay stories, since group sex implies a mixture of sexes in my mind, and in most people's mind, I think.

A slight note here (simply because I feel like defending myself) I don't read the stories before they're picked. I pick them based on how much the author has contributed to this forum. Redwave has contributed quite a bit. If I'd read it before, I would have put a warning on it. In fact, I'm going to do this now.

I'll be back with a true crit of it, since I did read it all, and I hate to waste my time by not going through with the purpose of the reading.

Mickie

 

[Mickie]

Let's see, now... for the purpose of creating something as disgusting as you could make it, I think you managed admirably. The grammar was appropriate to the situation. The amount of exposition could have been cut, but I know you were trying to tie it in with the first part, and give any reader who had read the first a remembrance of what it was about.

Okay, getting past my own aversion to things like drinking piss and doing crystal meth -- I don't really know if I can, but I'll try here -- You definitely don't keep the characters on the fence about anything. They're well-rounded in terms of personality, and I don't really see any problems with characterization.

There is a lack of setting, though. It's mentioned, but not really described. Could add a little more for that ultra-perversion atmosphere, but that's a fine point.

For pure disgusting porn, you've accomplished your goal. The writing itself isn't all that bad. Editing might help the style, but then, with this kind of piece, I don't think it matters as long as you can spell.

If I was going to write this (God Forbid) I'd pull out a couple of nasty scenes going on in the orgy and tell them in a more detailed fashion, giving sideline glimpses of the rest that's going on. I think you wanted to point out how overwhelmed he was and that he liked it. (obviously) but I think you lost the trees in the forest. Too much at once. Need to slow it down.

Okay, that's enough. I'm heading out for dinner with the family now. I think I'll go brush my teeth.

Mickie

 

[REDWAVE]

Hilarious!

O, Mickie, you crack me up. You're a funny guy. I hope you feel better after brushing your teeth-- I bet that was one of the most thorough brushings in history!


But you failed to grasp the real point of this story-- or if you did, you failed to express it. To throw your own question back at you-- what was I trying to do here?


JD's post, on the other hand, is not a critique, but a politically motivated attack. Offending bourgeois sensibilities is my very highest priority. In that, I see I have succeeded admirably with this story.



I note that Mickie and JD both used the word "disgusting" to describe my story. I'm not going to respond to that at this point, except to note it.


But I would like to address the issue of what category this story belongs in. Like some others stories on LE, this one could be classed under any one of three categories: gay male, group sex, and extreme. I chose "group sex" because that was the category GB1 was under, & this is a follow-up to that. And I put in GB1 under GS because I thought it would get more views that way. But it sure didn't work out that way for this story-- it has my lowest view count of any of my stories. (Poems, of course, are a different thing altogether.) And this story can be classified under GS legitimately-- a gangbang is definitely "group sex." There nothing in the term "group sex," or the concept of group sex, that says it has to involve members of both sexes. Anyone who has such a preconceived notion is merely revealing the limitations of his/her bourgeois conventionality.


One final comment-- Mickie, this story wasn't as "disgusting" as I could make it. I could have made it a lot more disgusting! I was trying to strike just the right balance-- to be just disgusting enough, but not too disgusting!

 

[Mickie]

Okay, yes, it was quite a thorough brushing.

The lower viewing might just mean people have read the first one and don't want to read the second. I agree that most people are too far into the conservative viewpoint, but this is skewed too far the other way. I try to tread a middle road, myself. I'm not offended by men with men, or even with the slave status. Drinking piss and doing meth is over my line, though. I didn't do meth when I was into the drug scene. I prefer mellow, not hyped out. And drinking piss? Isn't there some health reason you shouldn't, aside from the taste and thought of it? However, I suppose there are people who would be turned on by this, just as there are people who are aroused by a woman getting fucked by a dog. (Another one of those things I don't find pleasant) To each his own.

What I find the most distasteful is that there is no warning as to the subject matter in this story. I know I categorized it as gay male in the edit above, but my true feelings are that this belongs in the extreme category. Yes, we can all put stuff where an unsuspecting person would click on it, and then laugh because we KNOW it's going to be considered disgusting or perverted. I'm surprised Laurel put it in Group Sex. She's usually got more sense. Technically, yes, it does fit there, because it's more than a couple. It fits better in Extreme, though.

All right, now this forms a question. Shock value. Does it have true merit? Is this any worse than the other story up for discussion (Laurel's pick -- A Secret Inside)? The author of that story lured the reader in with an arousing incest story and then hit them below the belt by portraying the author's version of how it negatively affected the child's life in adulthood. This has no such pretentions as to luring, except the category its under, but it does hit the unsuspecting reader below the belt (or in the stomach, perhaps )

And my question to Redwave is -- do you want more readers? Or do you want more readers who actually like this kind of stuff?

Mickie

 

[REDWAVE]

Categories, schmategories!

Once again with the category thing! What's with all the meshugge stuff about categories, already?


I really have to come to Laurel's defense here, Mickie. (Not that she needs any defending-- I'm sure she's capable of taking care of herself.) When I submitted this story, I categorized it as "group sex." Laurel could have changed that, but she didn't-- she respected my choice of category. And it definitely involves group sex-- my characterization was not misleading. As far as warnings, all the readers here are adults, as far as I know, and have minds of their own. If they don't like a story, or are offended by it-- well, there's plenty of other stories on this very site, not to mention plenty of other sites! They don't have to read my story.

And, by the guidelines I've read, I don't think my story falls under "extreme." There's no bestiality, no scat. It's not even a non-consent story-- I make it very clear that Steve fully and enthusiastically consents to everything that takes place! (And as I'm sure you know, not all non-consent stories get classified as extreme-- only those where there's no enjoyment for the victim.) It does contain drug use-- non-sexual-- and watersports, which some may consider extreme. But (in case you haven't noticed) watersports is very popular with porndogs right now, and probably will only become more popular. And here's my Tip for Perverts for the day-- as long as you do like Steve does in the story and only swallow a little of the piss, but take most of it externally (on the body, or drool it out of your mouth), it probably won't harm your health at all! Habitual consumption of enormous amounts of urine, on the other hand, I don't recommend.


And hey, Mick-- remember, this is just a story. I'm not necessarily advocating either drug use or drinking piss (and I get the feeling you're more upset over the drug use than the pee), I'm just depicting it in a story. And it's an incontrovertible fact that there are people who like to do either one, or both.

As far as what kind of readers I want-- any kind I can get! I don't discriminate!

 

[Mickie]

Just my personal taste. And my own thoughts. I won't apologize for them any more than you apologize for yours. I agree with you in a lot of ways, Redwave, but I have my own quirks and lines I draw.

Drug use? Well, I suppose that is one of the sore points for me. Bad scene, no need to give you the history.

Don't know about the rise of popularity of piss drinking in porn. Never thought to research it, and certainly, with my obvious feelings about it, don't read it on a normal basis.

As for categories, I have my opinion. You have yours. Laurel has hers. I'll agree to disagree. Doesn't matter much, in the long run, now does it. It'll be where it is.

I'll give you the nonconsent thing. I never suggested it had anything nonconsentual in it. Just the opposite, in fact. And yes, it is group sex in a techical sense. Okay. I thought I said that.

Or, is it not all right to dislike a story simply because my tastes are different than yours? I'm out to arouse my audience. I write erotica, not porn. The only thing my writing has in common with yours is that they both deal with sexual situations. There was no real passion in your story, just sexual games. Great if you're a sports nut. I'm not. I disliked your main character. That has nothing to do with reality except I dislike anyone, man or woman, who enjoys being treated like an animal. I'm not saying you don't have the right to write this kind of stuff. I'm just saying I, personally, dislike it. And you have a perfect right to dislike my stories.

But, if you wanted writing tips, and how to improve the effect of your writing, I'm willing to read it and tell you that, along with my own opinion of the subject matter. Take it or leave it. I'll state again -- It could use more setting, more description of the atmosphere. You could make it even more nasty than it is.

Or would you rather just debate the validity of the category for two more pages? I've given you my opinion. Do with it what you want.

I do know that it's just a story. I know you aren't advocating anything. I'm not accusing you of that. This one just caught me by surprise. Yes, the meth thing did send shivers up my spine. Some subjects do that. I did try to get beyond that. Gotta give me some credit here. Not much, maybe, but some.

As for gaining readers -- okay. In other words you don't care whether they like the story or not. I suppose that's a valid way to look at it, but most people would rather the reader LIKED the story. *shrugs*

Yes, there are some people who would think this story is the hottest thing around. I won't dispute that. I won't dispute that there are people who will do anything to anyone and get a sexual kick out of it. I won't debate the right and wrong issue, because it really doesn't exist in this context. It's a matter of taste, alone. My taste is different.

But I can still tell you how to make this a better story (and I wouldn't even mention changing the actual subject matter)

Mickie

 

[mudlnthru]

Actually, Redwave, reading this story was kind of like reading some of the literature they forced us to write book reports about in high school.

I finally got through it, primarily by getting to that "clinical" stage where I wouldn't be shocked or turned totally off by anything. The whole thing starts without an intro (for the benefit of those who won't be reading chapter 1) and ends kind of leaving me feeling depressed. Certainly not turned on. Is that really what you want?

I recall the attempts to define porn in California many years ago. The legislature finally settled on the following: "Pornography is something with no redeeming social value."

Frankly, I'd read that to include your story, so if you want to live with that definition, you have truly succeeded. On the other hand, I began to feel like I was being introduced to some really bad dream filled with skinheads all practicing the one thing that they are truly good at.... abuse.

Sorry, I just didn't like it. Not much in the way of character, no plot development (what about this guy who was "out for a bit taking care of bidness"?) and certainly no breaks from what I just have to say is disgusting at best?

I tend to agree with Mickie on that. Time for the tooth brush.

 

[REDWAVE]

Shocking the bourgeois

Really, mudlnthru, they had you read stories like this one in high school? That must have been a real interesting high school!


It was you who kept bringing up the category thing, Mickie. I certainly don't want to debate it any more-- I find the whole topic of what category a story belongs under a pretty boring one and not really germane to a discussion of the story. (Actually, I think Laurel should create a new category for watersports.)

I do note the constructive criticisms which have been made, and I thank you for them. Also, in re-reading the story myself, I spotted a typo I had missed.


But I really have to disagree with mudlnthru's statement that the story has no redeeming social value. I think it clearly has that, in the social commentary it delivers. The conversation in the middle brings out just how shabbily most people are treated in the workplace. And the whole underlying premise of the story is the total rejection of mainstream society. To me, Red is a heroic figure-- an outlaw who breaks all the rules and gets away with it, who openly thumbs his nose at society's conventions. Steve is completely swept off his feet by Red because of his own alienation from society, which Red offers an escape from. (O no, I ended a sentence with a preposition!)

Let me close (for now) just by saying if you think GB2 is disgusting, you should try reading "The 120 Days of Sodom" by the Marquis de Sade. Why, my stuff is extremely tame by comparison!

 

[abashed-dreamer]

On My 2nd GB.

Redwave, I'm sorry to see the discussion go off track. As far as I know, a story in two categories can be placed in either; it seems like it might be the gay content that is the issue, but I see no reason that category should 'override'--that would be to put all gay stories in a slot. Also I don't quite see the need for protection. The story has gang bang in the title and shows its gay leaning in the first sentences; could things be any clearer??

Tovaritch, you've done well; the bourgeiousie are busy brushing their teeth and disavowing drugs. How odd!! Suppose a story here had included a nice het blowjob by a large boobed blonde who swallowed loads of cum; suppose a woman poster in this circle had said, 'Disgusting, i had to brush my teeth after.' She'd be told she was perhaps at the wrong site. And maybe some reading on the joys of oral sex would be recommended.

As to the story. It's well written, generally. The characters are OK, though 'of a type.' I did read ch 1 quickly and it has a little more narrative quality. This chapter is a bit static. The issue is, we know pretty much the outlines of what will happen, so the interest in in 'how it unfolds.' Comparing your writing, to, say
P. Califia, I think a little more imagination is called for. It's too easy just to have numbers--another troup of naked men showing up.

If I have a main complaint, it's in the failure to explore this 'sub'
character. We see him saying 'yes sir' 'no sir' 'that's wonderful'
We hardly ever see fear or disgust, and he's pushed pretty far, I think you'll agree. OK, in ch 1, he's decided to give himself over, but I have the feeling that wouldn't be so easy to do all at once, and it's not a matter of novacaine to the throat. He's suddenly the complete, relaxed sub, sucking or getting butt fucked 10 ways from Tues. with scarcely a murmur.

I find he's too agreeable, and surely a dom like you describe could find the limits and push them and really make the guy squirm, or suck cum till he vomited, or get fucked in the ass until it bled. Since the issue of 'disgust' has been brought up (so to speak), that approach I described would do more to grab the reader, than meek compliance, 'thanks for the assful of come, sirs.'

As to reader reactions; I'd point out that hitting at emotions of disgust or distaste is pretty common in lit stories, as in rapes, cum eating, etc. And this apparent disgust is part of what gives the stories their arousal. I think you are simply going for disgust in a slightly different set of acts, ones which might appeal to a section of the gay community. So criticism on that basis does not go anywhere, however heartfelt; as you've said, it's kind of a compliment.

In closing, you give a lot of importance to the discussion of the sub's job as a faceless lawyer in a big firm. Perhaps that could have been exploited a bit better. Again, he's too eager to say, 'I have a boring job' and 'i'm nobody at work.' More interesting would be for him to have a little pride, however misplaced. Then have that pride undermined. E.g., if he's so damn articulate and poised, have him get fucked till he's a blubbering mass of jello.

'Jack'
abashed-dreamer
lfmn2x@hotmail.com

 

[Mickie]

DeSade was a better writer, Redwave. He used a lot of long explanations to explain his position on society's lacks, as well, so it made a better commentary on the social structure than it did pornography. I dislike a lot of exposition in a story, but his work was more of a commentary than a true story. Yours, on the other hand, attempts to make that commentary through its shock value. No real explanation is made, aside from a few comments by Red. DeSade's characters were mostly pretty intelligent, and he used that to define Libertinism in their words. Red strikes me as neither intelligent nor unintelligent, merely a vehicle to engender more shock value.

I'd have to disagree with the legislature's definition of porn, Mudlinthru. If the legislature wants to get into moral judgements, then it can define porn as something with no redeemable social value. It does have social value, just not a lot of morality as defined by Redwave's burgeois society. It puts money into the pockets of the producers of porn, and it thus helps the economy as those producers spend it elsewhere.

As for the message Redwind tried to send through the conversations in the story, I think it fell short of making it's point. As a social commentary it lacks depth and thought. You can still use shock value and make your point, but the action has to be balanced with more than a line or two of thoughtful conversation. That kind of thought has to reflect throughout the entire story, not just in specific sections designed for it.

If you want people to feel sympathetic toward the characters because of the way they've been treated, you have to find something the reader can grasp as a 'good' quality. It doesn't have much to do with the action. It has to do with the inner dialogue. It has to do with how the pov character thinks, and no one has any respect for someone who refuses to think for himself. That might be the main problem with your pov character. He's a follower, and that's probably why he couldn't do well in society. He finds Red, and has someone new to follow. Red's doing well as an outlaw. Society will push him under sooner or later and then where will his slave bitch be? Hunting for someone else to follow. Pretty hopeless. Sad. Not terribly arousing because I have no sympathy for the little twerp. Nor do I think Red is going to do him any good in the long run.

Red as a hero type? I know what you mean, but Red doesn't seem to have the qualities a hero needs. He doesn't try to help his little bitch, nor does he really seem to care, aside from a few loving touches. It has a few moments in it where Red seems to become a little more human, but mostly he's just an abusive ass. It isn't enough to qualify him as a hero to an adult. Give him a little more compassion and I might buy it. Right now, the only thing he's got going is that rebel with an attitude thing that might appeal to an adolescent teen with an identity crisis.

Mickie

 

[Maquinna]

The categorization of this story doesn't concern me (although I think it might have done better elsewhere), nor do the individual acts themselves. Not my cup of tea, but I didn't have to gargle. Redwave's question focuses more on the appeal of the story (or lack thereof), so I think it's most useful to discuss that.

Frankly, I think it comes down to market demand and demographics. I wonder if literotica has any statistics on its readers vis-a-vis their sexual orientation or list of turn-ons and turn-offs (yes, I'm in marketing and I can be hired for this kind of work...lol...). I'd hate to make a rash assumption, but I'm guessing that most of the people cruising the GS pages are looking for hetero encounters. There's certainly no reason why this story shouldn't be in this category, except for the possibility that more readers who enjoy this type of material might be found looking at the Gay Male pages. It might not be so overshadowed there. My initial reaction to Redwave's query, then, is consider your audience when you select the category, not just the material you've covered. Bear in mind what the reader thinks as he or she looks at those categories, no matter what you think yourself.

I dealt with a similar dilemma when I posted my first story - should it go in the anal section or in voyeurism? I ultimately decided on anal because I thought it would get more reads there, but I would have liked to have had it in both places. I wonder if it would be possible to cross-list stories so they can reach more people? (Psst...Laurel...what do you think?). Yeah, I can just see the next contest...write a story that fits every category...

In terms of the story itself - I think this piece would benefit from greater character development. The narrator seems rather two-dimensional to me. He's little more than a giddy queen in cock heaven, but his psychological motivation and evolution as a sub could be explored to make him more interesting. Right now it's all pretty mechanical.

Others have been pretty vocal about the aspects of this story that most bothered them. Here is mine: I have never once in my life heard an adult seriously utter "Oh, goody!"

Maybe that's something gay men do?

 

[REDWAVE]

Thanks

Some good comments, Maquinna (and abashed dreamer & Mickie). Thanks. That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Since I consider the character of Red to be the key element of this story (and GB1), I'd appreciate it if future posts would address the topic of Red. Does the character work for you? Why or why not? Existential anti-hero-- or just abusive ass?

 

[mudlnthru]

Red

It's tough to get an actual handle on Red from the story. He is definitely anti-society norms, although plenty of people are that. I don't get a true feel for what he is, though. He just doesn't seem to fit into "normal" society. Perhaps more description would help. What does he actually do? Is it illegal, in which case, I can't consider him to be an anti-hero, just a criminal, no matter how unusual the criminal activity is.

He needs an income. He has extreme desires sexually. He really doesn't fill out very well in the story. Just a basic description and the fact that he disappears during the party. I'd like to know where he went when he left and what he was doing. Was he earning an income?

And I agree regarding the legislature, Redwave. The truth is that they can't define "social value" let alone what is "redeeming" within a context. Unfortunately, this has always been left up to the censure and moving ratings groups. And we all know that they have no idea what they're doing.

 

[REDWAVE]

Double standard?

abashed dreamer made an intriguing point. There's a lot of stories on this site about women being very submissive to men, and I doubt if any of them would bother the reviewers very much. But this story struck a nerve because it's a man being totally submissive to other men. That completely goes against the grain of what this society teaches men they're supposed to be, doesn't it? Men are supposed to compete with other men, even fight with them-- but a "man" is not supposed to suck other men's dicks and allow himself to be used as a sexual plaything by them. It's like the old saying: "They gave me a medal for killing a man-- then they took it away for kissing a man!"

 

[KillerMuffin]

There were two things that seriously bothered me. One of them to the point of chewing on one of my grammar manuals. Hyphens abounded. There were too many and they were misused. Hyphens don't replace commas, periods, semi-colons or conjunctions. Hyphens indicate a complete change of thought from the subject of the sentence. Usually the complete change of thought is when one speaker cuts off another.

The Presidio of Monterey flies no less than four national flags-- down at the bottom of the hill-- because it's been possessed by those four countries at one time.

The other thing is the speech tags. I said, I cried, I blah blah. You've got two people talking through most of it. The reader knows who is talking when someone is saying "O Master!" I said is redundant and unnecessary. Tagging speech with anything but said or asked generally shows an inadequacy with dialogue that should be fixed. The use of body language, description of tone, and props should not be ignored. WS has a whole thing dedicated to dialogue.

Dialogue makes or breaks a story, generally. It's where the action happens that makes us feel something for the characters beyond a hard-on.

As far as content, I've seen worse. I read a story at Whiteshadows once, it inured me to this one. If there is any biting social commentary in it, I missed it. The joyful enslavement of the "establishment" by the cruel "anarchist?" perhaps? It didn't come through. Usually social commentary of this nature works better in satire than it does in any other form of prose. This isn't satire. Satire is one of the most difficult things to master because you must mock what you're revelling in. Jonothan Swift's satire regarding the other white meat is a perfect example of biting social commentary.

I didn't find this disgusting because I've read worse. You should see Joni's thread at the amateur feedback board, you can see it illustrated.

Whatever the content aimed to do wasn't backed up by the writing itself. Quality of writing shouldn't suffer because the message in the story takes precedence. I'm pretty sure Redwave can write better, but I've only read the Kinky Valentine so I'm not so sure. Even so, practice always makes better. Good writing is the foundation that any message is built on. If the foundation is shaky, then the message collapses.

If you haven't read Swift's "A Modest Proposal," you really should.
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~benjamin/316kfall/316kunit2/studentprojects/group1/modestproposal.html

Don't confuse satire and sarcasm.

 

[Whispersecret]

FYI

Er, my thing on dialogue really only discusses proper punctuation, not style.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

[KM] 'hyphens indicate a complete change of thought...' NOT!!!

Oxford Dictionary of Current English
hyphen n. sign (-) used to join words semantically or syntactically
(e.g. fruit-tree, pick-me-up) (1993, p. 433)

Get with the program!!

 

[Mickie]

I think Whisper meant a dash, which the keyboard translates from two adjacent hyphens. It does indicate a break in thought, and is frequently used by those who want to replace a wrongly used ellipsis. However, this should be used as infrequently as possible or it loses its effect, just like any other more advanced form of puctuation, from the exclamation point on up.

Mickie

 

[KillerMuffin]

[KM] 'hyphens indicate a complete change of thought...' NOT!!!

Oxford Dictionary of Current English
hyphen n. sign (-) used to join words semantically or syntactically
(e.g. fruit-tree, pick-me-up) (1993, p. 433)

Get with the program!!

LOL. And exactly how would you use a hyphen in a sentence? He was using hyphens as punctuation, not to join words together. I didn't buy a program, I figured that a symphony is a symphony no matter how many people play the flute. Redwave has a handle on the "fruit-tree" business, I saw no need to fill that out-- isn't it odd how fruit tree can be hyphenated but isn't always-- or belabor what's not only obvious but not relevant.

From Webster's Grammar Guide: The dash (--) is used to indicate an abrupt change of ideas, but should be used sparingly. Excessive use of the dash usually indicates that the writer does not know what puncuation mark to use.

A dash isn't a hyphen, but ain't ain't in the dictionary either. Popular usage bites.

 

[REDWAVE]

Summing up

Well, it's almost Friday again, so I guess it's getting about time to sum up. It's been nice being the center of attention all week-- sort of a literary gangbang, you know-- but it'll soon be someone else's turn.

The price of toothpaste stock soared over the last few days, as sales went through the roof. I even received a letter of thanks from the toothpaste industry.


I appreciate all the good constructive criticism I got, especially from abashed dreamer, Maquinna, and KillerMuffin. Mickie tried hard, but I think I freaked him out with this story just a little. I've outdone myself this time-- I've written a story that offended and grossed out a professional smut writer. I'm so proud of myself!


(BTW, Laurel, wudda fuk's up wid takin out my fav smiley?)

From reading the posts, I get the impression that I didn't get my character conception of Red across as well as I thought I did. And although I don't expect anyone here to read all three stories of the trilogy (unless they really want to), and I designed each story to stand alone, but also be part of a larger whole, it probably does help to read all three in order to get a full sense of the two main characters.

Steve's evolution as a sub, I think, is very clear. He starts out lonely, "starved for affection," condemned to unsatisfying fleeting, anonymous encounters. ("Slutty Cockpig.") Then he meets Red, and falls for him totally, because although Red is rough and dominant, that's what Steve wants-- and Steve also feels Red has some genuine affection for him. A key revealing point in GB2 is where Steve talks about Red giving him a lot of affection in the limo, which Steve (in his own words) "sucked up like a sponge." Steve is incredibly needy, and can't get enough attention and affection-- and is even willing to accept abuse and degradation (or at least what most people think of as such) to get some affection.

Red, as I've mentioned, I conceive as an existential anti-hero, an outlaw who breaks all the rules and gets away with it, arrogantly thumbing his nose at society and its conventions. He has totally freed his mind from bourgeois conventionality and sentimentality. From various hints I give in the story, the astute reader will infer that he is very affluent, even rich, and makes his living from a mix of illegal (selling drugs-- on a large scale, not street level) and legal (making and distributing porn movies) activities. Yet he breaks the code in another way, too-- living an outwardly not particularly affluent existence. He takes Steve to a shabby apartment in a bad part of town, but later a chauffered limo pulls up in front to whisk them away.

Maquinna commented on Steve's saying "oh, goody," at one point. You're right, Maquinna, not many people say that-- not many adults anyway-- and no, it's not a gay thing. I had Steve use that expression there to indicate that he had given himself over to Red so completely, and become so totally dependent upon him psychologically, that he had regressed into childhood to some extent. Some will say Steve's personality is sick. Maybe it is, and I'm certainly not holding him up as an example of great mental health. But I do think he's a very believable character, since there are quite a few people like that (gay and straight) in real life.