My Life, My Land, My Home, My Wife, My Children, My Family!

[amicus]

With apologies to Kev H, who inspired this by responding to my well wishes for ‘you and yours’, that I amended, with humor, to note, ‘that may imply possession’, oops.

Kev replied to my well wishing, with ‘my companion does well, thank you…’.

I would recommend a reading of Ayn Rand’s “Anthem”, for a better understanding of the ‘meat’ of this post in terms of personal, individual identification.

Collectivist philosophy, such as it is, has a problem with the words, “I”, ‘me’, or ‘mine’, and much prefer, for all reasons, the collective, ‘we’ or, ‘ours’, eliminating individual identification. “Anthem” takes this to an extreme, but an illustrative extreme, as the word, “I” has disappeared from the language.

The sad psychological imperative included, is the replacement of personal ambition and responsibility, honor and values, with a ‘collective’ or group identification and an absence of individual values.

Even the concept of feeling ‘pride’, or being proud, of one’s accomplishments or acquisitions in life has been denigrated and disdained to be a collective effort, without which no one would achieve anything as an individual.

There is comfort in numbers, I suppose, when one identifies oneself as a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Socialist, even as a Democrat or a Republican, and adopts the rules, regulations, mantra or scripture of the group. It does relieve one of the burden of making individual choices and decisions about all matters; one just follows the crowd.

It also relieves one from acknowledging personal failure in any endeavor and places the blame on society or some opposing belief.

And yes, this concept, this thread, is intended to make you feel uncomfortable each time you say, ‘my car’, ‘my job’, ‘my dog’, with the ‘my’ implying personal possession or ownership.

So…this is MY thread, I created it, it is mine, not yours.

AmIcus

 

[TxRad]

This is possible your biggest load of crap yet.

We just love your politics on our Porn site. But then again, you already know that. Why don't you take this manure pile to a political thread somewhere? Obvious answer to everyone but you would be, They would laugh their collective asses off at you.


On a finer note, do you know what the old southern saying, "My, Oh, My" means?

It a persons polite way of saying "Fuck you and the little pink pony you rode in on."

You get more boring and predictable every day.

 

[cloudy]

On a finer note, do you know what the old southern saying, "My, Oh, My" means?

It a persons polite way of saying "Fuck you and the little pink pony you rode in on."

I like "bless your heart" better.

 

[Miss_Pixie]

Amicus, I agree with some of the things you post but this isn't one of them.

 

[SeaCat]

What is scary is I can understand where this is coming from. It is just being taken to the potential extreme.

If you are of the mindset that is being taught by too many, (just look at the advertisements on T.V. for Lawyers and the litany of lawsuits in the news.)

You have smoked all your life even though you have seen the scientific and medical reports that smoking increases your chances of Cancer. Now you are diagnosed with Cancer. Well it's not your fault, the Tobacco Companies have somehow forced you to continue smoking.

You try to stop a saw with your hand. Oops, there wasn't a warning on the saw not to do this. You can sue.

Your mother took Thalidomide while pregnant with you. You were born with Birth Defects. You can sue the company that made Thalidomide.

You got drunk at a local bar then climbed into a car and wiped out a family. It isn't your fault, it's the Bar's fault. They didn't stop you from driving drunk.

We even see this in things like school and sub league sports. We can't have winners and losers as this will make someone feel bad. We can't have blow outs for the same reason. We even had this in education for a while.

Now here is where the fear comes in. Take this to the extreme. (In Sci-Fi they call this Forwardism or Forward thinking.) There are those who feel this will be taken to the point where if you have something your neighbor doesn't then he can legally take it without repurcussions. The people who feel this way fear that humans will fall into a type of socialism where you will own nothing and mediocrity is the norm.

Me? I personaly don't think this will happen although I do see where some of our societal trends do point towards that end. I feel that people will only put up with this to a certain point and then they will back off. The pendulum does swing both ways.

I'm not going to prognosticate on what is going to happen, but I do think that there will be a balance struck between Controll and Uncontrolled actions by both individuals and groups.

Cat

 

[amicus]

You can't know, of course, SeaCat, but I read all of your threads although I don't respond to each one, and from reading what you write, I can tell you that we have lived a similar life. I have lived as you describe your living and even quite near where you are located.

It is to and for people such as you and I that I write what I do and the why, is to provide an alternative to the broad consensus on this forum concerning collective values.

You and I both know the pride in accomplishment that one feels after replacing the flooring in a double-wide, standing back and smiling at a job well done.

After a 16 hour day of work, I can climb down off a tractor/bailer and look happily upon ten acres of bailed hay that this morning was a field of waving grass.

That sense of accomplishment, pride, gives value to a man's labor and the success of his efforts.

You will notice that the hard left, the usual suspects won't even touch the meat or the content of my OP; instead they stick out their slimy tongues and display their IQ with a middle finger.

Most people born with common sense, add to that ability by actually thinking as they live and appreciating those who show excellence in their work, whatever it may be. All work has value if it is done well and with pride and a sense of achievement.

I am not fond of honey bee's, but upon observation, they seem a happy and dedicated lot, always busy drinking nectar and looking for more. Pursuing that, they manage to find home, store the nectar, which becomes honey, a sustaining food for more baby bee's.

Our collectivist friends here have a passion for hive life, where their daily actions are genetically programmed and they need not think to fulfill their life's destinies. Such a natural, wonderful existence; no decisions to make, ample food and shelter, no need for education, genetic imperatives handle all you need to know, what a wonderful life!

SeaCat; thank you!

Amicus

 

[bronzeage]

I love a post that has an entire novel for a foot note.

 

[TE999]

As said above, it is fashionable today to 'be' something or a part of something instead of 'someone'. The use of hyphenated identification of oneself is encouraged, eg; Hispanic-American, Cuban-American, African-American, etc. Being a hyphenated American places one as part of a group and discourages thinking of oneself as an individual (or an American).

The wily pols in Washington discovered a long time ago the principle of divide and conquer, pitting ethnic groups, economic classes, business vs. labor and such as a way to garner votes in a bloc and reduce the prospect of a united front against a virtual totalitarian regime of career politicians and bureaucrats.

That's one big reason why the inside the beltway types are so quick to dismiss such things as Freedom, Not Government rallies and the Tea Party phenomenon. Americans of all ages, races and party affiliations uniting in a common goal to reduce the spread of government and burgeoning deficit spending gives Empire builders in Washington fits...so they unlimber the guns and attempt to denigrate the movement via their lap dogs in the Lamestream Media.

One can remain an individual, however that requires thinking for oneself and not succumbing to groupthink...the intellectually lazy, the uncertain, the frightened, the frustrated, the angry, the meek and the perennial victim groups all find solace and affirmation in groupthink.

It takes fortitude and courage to chart ones own course...it's rigorous and demanding...but it can be done...and the pleasure of being ones own person instead of just another sheep is immeasurable.

 

[amicus]

This is possible your biggest load of crap yet.

We just love your politics on our Porn site. But then again, you already know that. Why don't you take this manure pile to a political thread somewhere? Obvious answer to everyone but you would be, They would laugh their collective asses off at you.


On a finer note, do you know what the old southern saying, "My, Oh, My" means?

It a persons polite way of saying "Fuck you and the little pink pony you rode in on."

You get more boring and predictable every day.

~~~

Typical evasion, 'roll eyes', we just love your cynical trololing on our Author's Hangout at Literotica, but then one assumes you are aware of your failings and perhaps should just sit on the sidelines and abuse yourself?

I am always polite, but perhaps you are not quite ready to play with the big boys just yet.


ami

 

[amicus]

Excerpt from Ayn Rand “The Anthem”

We look ahead, we beg our heart for guidance in answering this call no voice has spoken, yet we have heard. We look upon our hands. We see the dust of centuries, the dust which hid the great secrets and perhaps great evils. And yet it stirs no fear within our heart, but only silent reverence and pity.

May knowledge come to us! What is the secret our heart has understood and yet will not reveal to us, although it seems to beat as if it were endeavoring to tell it?

I am. I think. I will.

My hands . . . My spirit . . . My sky . . . My forest . . . This earth of mine. . . . What must I say besides? These are the words. This is the answer.

I stand here on the summit of the mountain. I lift my head and I spread my arms. This, my body and spirit, this is the end of the quest. I wished to know the meaning of things. I am the meaning. I wished to find a warrant for being. I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.

~~~

A precio9us little book, about a hundred pages or so...you should read it.

Amicus

 

[Handley_Page]

Isn't there a part of speech where there is no "I", but "one".

"One really should try harder."

Perhaps someone can put my errors right ?

 

[TxRad]

~~~

Typical evasion, 'roll eyes', we just love your cynical trololing on our Author's Hangout at Literotica, but then one assumes you are aware of your failings and perhaps should just sit on the sidelines and abuse yourself?

I am always polite, but perhaps you are not quite ready to play with the big boys just yet.


ami

No evasion. Just fed up with your political crap on a porn site. Why don't you grow a set of balls and go post this on a political site.

Me cynical? After reading some of your posts, no, make that most of your posts, you're calling me cynical. Now, there is the laugh of the day. By the way, troll is spelled this way.

Being polite has noting to do with anything. In your case, it's politely silly and stupid. As for playing with the big boys, why don't you try it. Oh yeah, they laughed you out of the building the last time you did it.

Ami the ridiculous. Yeah, you'd get laughed at.

 

[CeriseNoire]

As said above, it is fashionable today to 'be' something or a part of something instead of 'someone'. The use of hyphenated identification of oneself is encouraged, eg; Hispanic-American, Cuban-American, African-American, etc. Being a hyphenated American places one as part of a group and discourages thinking of oneself as an individual (or an American).

Interesting. I'm just wondering though, isn't thinking of oneself as an American just as much defining the self in terms of membership in a group as any hyphenated identity? They may be different or overlapping groups, but they are groups nonetheless.

While the hyphenated nationality thing isn't my preference, it strikes me more as people wanting to acknowledge different pieces of who they are.

 

[Kev H]

Heh, interesting thread, but I take no credit for its inspiration (whereas a misunderstanding is the apparent cause). The excerpt from Rand sounds like an individualism manifesto to me, and I am certainly not contra to that--I love and revel in the individual, in the personal. I think group experiences are good only in the ways they add unique substance to the individual journey.

Initially, my distinction about possession (of loved ones) came from lack of need to own others, but it is in no means a shirking of self. I am an individual ("We are, too," shouts the Monty Python crowd), and because I have reached a particular point of sentience, I deserve to own certain important-to-me things. I own myself, including my attitudes, my fortune, my responsibilities, my mistakes, and with effort, my ability to correct my mistakes. I love owning them, and I, too, like Ayn, celebrate this fact and am wary of those who cannot identify with this earned aspect of my life.

But notice even she does not say, "Therefore, I can also own you." When this is done (even with the best intentions), this erroneously places oneself above someone else, and creates a false/superficial/at-best-temporary relation, attempting to take their individuality (or perhaps their chance to grow into an individual). So, I'd not claim a loved one as mine in any possessive sense. When I say "my <insert specific loved one here>" I mean it as an identifier only, that I have the fortune of relating to this person, hence I clarified in our PMs and named them as "companions" rather than "possessions." Hopefully, that is clearer (though probably not since I'm rushing so I can get back to work).

Not taking ownership is a whole other can of worms (opened in this thread). All reasonable people will understand how important personal responsibility is, hopefully, for I sure as hell won't take ownership for them.

PS: When Ayn talks about "this earth of mine", she isn't making an assumption of ownership, but of companionship. It influenced and nurtured and helped her grow into who she became, so she identified it as hers (hers to enjoy/appreciate/be a companion to/be a part of). That's my take, at any rate.

 

[TE999]

Interesting. I'm just wondering though, isn't thinking of oneself as an American just as much defining the self in terms of membership in a group as any hyphenated identity? They may be different or overlapping groups, but they are groups nonetheless.

While the hyphenated nationality thing isn't my preference, it strikes me more as people wanting to acknowledge different pieces of who they are.

Good point, cerise.

(Long time no see BTW )

It wasn't my intent to denigrate ethnic pride or impugn a lack of patriotism...and I neglected to include Italian-American,Polish-American and German-American in my examples... My bad. ...but rather to illustrate the human proclivity to be part of a group in order to fit in...which oft times leads to intellectual laziness and group think...'yellow dog' Democrats are another example...'extreme right' Republicans as well.

It's difficult sometimes to think for oneself...especially contending with group or 'peer' pressure, but that's what we all must do if we wish to retain our freedoms. A basic tenet of Communisim is the suppression of individual identity in favor of the group and it's collective needs.

 

[Liar]

So…this is MY thread, I created it, it is mine, not yours.

It's Kitty Mama's thread. Cause it's Kitty Mama's site. You may claim the text you write on her site as your Intellectual Property though.

ETA: Kitty Mama's and her partner in crime's, that is.

 

[Liar]

There is comfort in numbers, I suppose, when one identifies oneself as a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Socialist, even as a Democrat or a Republican, and adopts the rules, regulations, mantra or scripture of the group. It does relieve one of the burden of making individual choices and decisions about all matters; one just follows the crowd.

...or an Objectivist.

 

[amicus]

...or a human...

 

[TxRad]

...or a human...

Or an idiot posting politics on a porn site.

 

[bronzeage]

The cult of individualism is fine as long as no one confuses it with self sufficiency.

Today's standard of living so high and life has become so soft, it's easy to imagine ourselves removed from society. All we have really done is insulate ourselves from other people and the "collective" effort which makes our plush life possible.

"The sad psychological imperative included, is the replacement of personal ambition and responsibility, honor and values, with a ‘collective’ or group identification and an absence of individual values."

Ambition to do or be what? Responsibility to do what?

Honor and values? Do "individual" values of honor spring spontaneously from the unformed mind? Could a child be locked in a closet for the first eighteen years of his life, then when set free, walk out and say, "I will not cheat, lie or steal."

We are born naked and from the first day to our last, we are given things.

I can chop down a tree, saw it into lumber and build a house. I can call it mine and tell others to stay out of it. I can all it mine, because I built it, but I didn't build the tree. I didn't create the land on which the tree grew. It was all there before I was born. This idea of "mine" is my own creation. Philosophers have labeled this the "Daffy Duck" fallacy.

If someone else wants my house, they might try to throw me out of it. I could fight them and maybe win. I could call a few other individuals to help, but what is their interest in my house, or my comfort? We could band together for mutual benefit, but then we are in danger of becoming a collective.

The problem is there are so many collectives from which to choose. I can stand up and declare myself entitled to whatever I want, by virtue of my individual honor code. There are collectives which think this is a good value, but many others would brand me a dishonorable thief.

The problem arises when someone looks around and decides everybody else is in the wrong collective.

 

[Liar]

...or a human...

God damn collectivists all of us.

 

[amicus]

Bronzeage...let us, for the sake of discussion, presume sinerity on your part about not understanding the quest for individual freedom and liberty that has been the epitome of human struggles since the beginning of time.

Your words:

The cult of individualism is fine as long as no one confuses it with self sufficiency.

The human quest for individualism is not a 'cult', it is the essential defining characteristic of what it means to be human as opposed to a hive insect.

Today's standard of living so high and life has become so soft, it's easy to imagine ourselves removed from society. All we have really done is insulate ourselves from other people and the "collective" effort which makes our plush life possible.

Read your own words. You speak of that ntellectual minority that sustains itself by mental effort only. For you and they, yes, I can see how your insular existence might cause one to 'feel' they are part of a grand collective that sustains them. Most people have to work for a living and are well aware of the importance of individual values.

Quote: Amicus:

"The sad psychological imperative included, is the replacement of personal ambition and responsibility, honor and values, with a ‘collective’ or group identification and an absence of individual values."

Ambition to do or be what? Responsibility to do what?

Honor and values? Do "individual" values of honor spring spontaneously from the unformed mind? Could a child be locked in a closet for the first eighteen years of his life, then when set free, walk out and say, "I will not cheat, lie or steal."

We are born naked and from the first day to our last, we are given things.

That human children are born helpless does not give you grounds to state that each human is dependent upon others. Although the 'life' of that infant, is a value, some say at birth, some say at conception, each child is born with a blank slate and must use its' mind to perceive reality and then begin to form to concepts and abstractions that define values. Because of the size and complexity of the human brain, nature provides the unconditional love of that child by its' parents, to care for it and nurture it and help it learn that fire is hot and dangerous, that one cannot breathe under water, and that falling from high place can kill you. An infant has none of that knowledge and must learn it all.

Eighteen years is an abitrary age as some mature before that age and others never reach a state of self sufficiency. To lock a child away for most of its' young life is an act of human cruelty an aspect of 'libeboat ethics' and does not serve to illustrate the dependence of any individual upon others.

I can chop down a tree, saw it into lumber and build a house. I can call it mine and tell others to stay out of it. I can all it mine, because I built it, but I didn't build the tree. I didn't create the land on which the tree grew. It was all there before I was born. This idea of "mine" is my own creation. Philosophers have labeled this the "Daffy Duck" fallacy.

You didn't create the earth or the universe at large, Bronzeage, but one of your forefathers, individually discovered what it took to create 'Bronze', a mixture of Copper, Tin and perhaps Lead or other metals, was the product of one man's mind and no other. That he benefited from that discovery and that others did as well, makes no one 'dependent' on anyone else. Quite the same with the discovery that 'fire' could be controlled and used to benefit the individual man or a group of men; none of that implies that man is naturally dependent on others, only that man may mutually associate with others for mutual benefit.

If someone else wants my house, they might try to throw me out of it. I could fight them and maybe win. I could call a few other individuals to help, but what is their interest in my house, or my comfort? We could band together for mutual benefit, but then we are in danger of becoming a collective.

That is why, every society, large and small, recognized, to one degree or another, the efficacy of property rights and the individual ownership of the means to survive. There are always thieves and crooks among us, those who would take by force that which they did not earn or create. Societies since the beginning of time have always chosen the biggest and the meanest of the individuals to act as 'guards' against the use of force and, by mutual free agreement, have agreed to support those 'guards' by giving a portion of what they own rather than act as their own protective force.


The problem is there are so many collectives from which to choose. I can stand up and declare myself entitled to whatever I want, by virtue of my individual honor code. There are collectives which think this is a good value, but many others would brand me a dishonorable thief.

The problem arises when someone looks around and decides everybody else is in the wrong collective.

There is some truth in what you say, but very little...throughout most of man's history, there was no choice in which ruler/chief/priest/dictator, you were forced to become part or die. It is only when the individual freedom of man was recognized and then protected, that the matter of 'choice' between competing groups became an option. I tend to observe that it is those individuals with an intelligent quotient of less than 100, that seek a 'communal' existence as they are mentally incapable of independent judgment. The Church comes to mind first, then the Guilds, or Unions, and political parties.

~~~

Again, presuming your sincerity and for the benefit of others:

***
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/individual_rights.html


Individual Rights

A “right” is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context. There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man’s right to his own life. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action—which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life. (Such is the meaning of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.)

The concept of a “right” pertains only to action—specifically, to freedom of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by other men.Thus, for every individual, a right is the moral sanction of a positive—of his freedom to act on his own judgment, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, uncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.

The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible.

Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.

Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values.

“Man’s Rights,” The Virtue of Selfishness, 93


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/fascism-nazism.html

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/human_rights_and_property_rights.html

Perhaps in another Post I will address the psychological necessity of adherence to individual values as a prerequisite to a healthy mind, or, sanity.

Amicus

 

[CeriseNoire]

Good point, cerise.

(Long time no see BTW )

It wasn't my intent to denigrate ethnic pride or impugn a lack of patriotism...and I neglected to include Italian-American,Polish-American and German-American in my examples... My bad. ...but rather to illustrate the human proclivity to be part of a group in order to fit in...which oft times leads to intellectual laziness and group think...'yellow dog' Democrats are another example...'extreme right' Republicans as well.

It's difficult sometimes to think for oneself...especially contending with group or 'peer' pressure, but that's what we all must do if we wish to retain our freedoms. A basic tenet of Communisim is the suppression of individual identity in favor of the group and it's collective needs.

(Yeah, wedding stuff had me busy, and being a newlywed means a whole lot of getting busy, er... I mean being busy, too )

Don't worry, I didn't take offense; I was just noticing. I always found the hyphenation phenomenon interesting as it didn't exist where I grew up.

As for the original topic, I'm not sure how this is supposed to make anyone uncomfortable with claiming possession. I'm quite comfortable with having my thoughts, my achievements and my opinions, which sometimes align with those of a larger group, and sometimes don't.

 

[TE999]

(Yeah, wedding stuff had me busy, and being a newlywed means a whole lot of getting busy, er... I mean being busy, too )

Don't worry, I didn't take offense; I was just noticing. I always found the hyphenation phenomenon interesting as it didn't exist where I grew up.

As for the original topic, I'm not sure how this is supposed to make anyone uncomfortable with claiming possession. I'm quite comfortable with having my thoughts, my achievements and my opinions, which sometimes align with those of a larger group, and sometimes don't.

Spoken as a true independent thinker.

(Congrats on your new married life.)

 

[bronzeage]

./..
That human children are born helpless does not give you grounds to state that each human is dependent upon others.
...

Amicus

If you cannot see that you are dependent on others, it is only your own conceit, which at this point borders on silliness. If the collective "us" has failed to recognize your talents, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Just enjoy the soft life the world has put in place for you and rejoice that you have the early part of the 21st century for the next couple decades, or however long you have.