My first story is up

[imarrja]

I'm open for comments on all aspects, from how does it look on your monitor to what to do differently next time.

On the Eiffel Tower

Thanks!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Hey imarjja,

Copngratulations on your story, but if you're looking for feedback, you'd probably do better posting a link to your story in the "Story Feedback" board. Around here we're mostly fighting about when to use a semi-colon versus a comma.

---dr.M.

 

[imarrja]

When do we get to argue about whether or not to use a comma between the next-to-last item in a list and "and"?
EX:
bread, milk, and eggs
or
bread, milk and eggs

 

[cantdog]

Any time! That's the beauty of a bulletin board.

How 'bout a cheat?

Milk, bread, eggs-- all these things are unimportant compared to pussy!

Leave out the "and" altogether! Liberate yourself!

 

[snooper]

When do we get to argue about whether or not to use a comma between the next-to-last item in a list and "and"?
EX:
bread, milk, and eggs
or
bread, milk and eggs

Only the context can tell you whether a comma is needed there.

If the elements of the list are all equal then a comma is needed, otherwise not.

EG:

They ate jam, bread and butter.
They ate jam, clotted cream, and scones.

"Bread and butter" are inseparable, in the sense that they constitute a single element, and thus the comma is not needed. "Clotted cream" and "scones" are not inseparable, in that either can be eaten without the other.

 

[upfront]

Only the context can tell you whether a comma is needed there.

If the elements of the list are all equal then a comma is needed, otherwise not.

EG:

They ate jam, bread and butter.
They ate jam, clotted cream, and scones.

"Bread and butter" are inseparable, in the sense that they constitute a single element, and thus the comma is not needed. "Clotted cream" and "scones" are not inseparable, in that either can be eaten without the other. [/QUOTE

Actually, assuming they are all single elements (rather than, say, "bread and butter"), there is a discrepancy here between English and American usage. In England the convention is usually to omit the final comma in such a list - "Bach, Brahms and Beethoven" - unless the comma clarifies the meaning. Conventional American usage is always to include it - "Goethe, Schiller, and Heine". If "bread and butter" are inseperable and constitute a single element then "jam and bread and butter" (or "jam, and bread and butter", which has the advantage of breaking up the two "and"s) is correct.

 

[cantdog]

ooh, punctuation!

Don't you just revel in it?

I really prefer the British comma usage for that one; I have to clamp my teeth and force myself in order to indite the comma. This is cool; I can just turn British for a moment every time.

Knowledge is power!

I think the trick with any punctuation is to keep it below the level of the reader's notice. Give the words enough grouping to make them swiftly intelligible.

That's why it's so important to be as dead conventional as you can.

cantdog

 

[HawaiiBill]

Punctuation is vital but word selection urgent

This thread demonstrates a variety of superfluous words. Since you are all paying such close attention, I'll dig through and sample a few. Names will be omitted to avoid embarrassment of the guilty.

NOT "whether or not" but "whether." Redundant.

NOT "bread, milk, and eggs" because the commas subsitute for the word 'and.' To use it in this way curdles the eggs.

NOT "They ate jam, clotted cream, and scones." Clumsy attempts at logic clot the cream and spoil the scones. Clarity is the only goal. Brevity is its faithful lover.

NOT SO: "Conventional American usage is always to include it - 'Goethe, Schiller, and Heine'" This is as good a reason as any to not attribute authorship in editing criticism. Try research, preferably The Chicago Manual of Style. In a pinch, Strunk will do nicely.

NOT "I can just turn British." Try "I can turn British." The word 'just' must have a place where it is utterly necessary. Please find just one sample and forward. Similar comment appropos for 'I think' here: "I think the trick..".Simply "The trick" is so much better in every way.

NOT "If the elements of the list are all equal..." Try "If the elements of rhe list are equal..." and breathe the pure air.

I only peek in here because this is, after all, the Editor's Forum! Should it be Editors' Forum, however?

Tough love and aloha,

Hawai`i Bill

 

[snooper]

Re: Punctuation is vital but word selection urgent

... Try research, preferably The Chicago Manual of Style. In a pinch, Strunk will do nicely. ...

As has been pointed out before, both of these were written as advice to journalists and the forms of language recommended are those producing the best newspaper writing.

I would hope that the standard of writing to which Literotica authors aspire is a little more erudite than journalism.

 

[upfront]

NOT SO: "Conventional American usage is always to include it - 'Goethe, Schiller, and Heine'" This is as good a reason as any to not attribute authorship in editing criticism. Try research, preferably The Chicago Manual of Style. In a pinch, Strunk will do nicely.

Maybe you should try humility.

I do my research, and I have worked on American dictionaries. However, I am English, so I come to American as a foreigner with a different but related language. Nevertheless, my understanding from every style guide I've read (and I freely acknowledge I've not read them all; life's too short) is that American convention is to include the comma after the penultimate item in a list, while English convention is to omit it (unless this creates ambiguity).

It should be borne in mind that style guides are designed partly to provide a prescriptive "house style", to ensure internal consistency where more than one editor is involved, such as in a newspaper.

Incidentally, in the name of "research", since I don't have The Chicago Manual of Style to hand, I looked at the Q&A section on their website and found the following:

Q. In the sentence “I went to the store to buy eggs, milk and cheese” do you put a comma after “milk”? What is the standard now for comma usage after the second-to-last item? I have seen such sentences both with and without the comma.

A. Chicago style is to put a comma there (it’s called a “serial” comma). There are times when that comma is necessary to avoid awkwardness or ambiguity: “My favorite combinations are green and yellow, blue and purple and black and red.” Since it is sometimes needed, and is never wrong, the simplest way to impose consistency without having to stop and think about each instance is to form a habit of adding the serial comma.

So much for your own research.

I'm all for discussing the finer points of grammar and punctuation, but the spirit of one-upmanship exuded in some quarters on this forum is nauseating and pathetic. You don't have a monopoly on wisdom any more than you do on style. If you wish to share knowledge, insight and understanding, I suggest you do so in a manner less likely to get people's backs up.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Re: Re: Punctuation is vital but word selection urgent

As has been pointed out before, both of these were written as advice to journalists and the forms of language recommended are those producing the best newspaper writing.

I would hope that the standard of writing to which Literotica authors aspire is a little more erudite than journalism.

Snooper, NEITHER The Chicago Manual of Style Nor William Strunk's The Elements of Style are meant for journalists though, I am certain, many do make good use of their advice.

As a matter of fact, Strunk's very popular guide is one of the resources listed by Literotica for it's writers or you can find it here -- the link Literotica uses! -- http://www.bartleby.com/141/

Why do you enter these discussions from such obvious lack of interest, at least insufficient interest to make you check out your rash opinions?

Clearly you do not take editing seriously or you would know those volumes for what they are. Have you ever read the list of Writer's Resources on this site?

 

[HawaiiBill]

Chicago style is to put a comma there (it’s called a “serial” comma). There are times when that comma is necessary to avoid awkwardness or ambiguity: “My favorite combinations are green and yellow, blue and purple and black and red.” Since it is sometimes needed, and is never wrong, the simplest way to impose consistency without having to stop and think about each instance is to form a habit of adding the serial comma.

Your example -- taken from The Chicago Manual of Style web site is valuable. They are becoming defensive of the comma before the terminal conjunction, however, and you can read that in the line, "Since it is sometimes needed, and is never wrong, the simplest way to impose consistency without having to stop and think about each instance..." allows that the comma is not always needed. The printed manual is slightly more strict.

Not to get Snooper on the journalism case again, but you will see commas in news headlines frequently subsituting for 'and.' Thus: "War, Hunger Identified as:Scourges."

My entry was terse because there were so many redundant or unnecessary words in a single string in this forum on editing.

If you don't like my manner of entry, so be it. The point was to get all our friends thinking and, in your case, that seems to have worked. It's clear to me that you were already thoughtful, by the way, and I appreciated your response.

 

[upfront]

My entry was terse because there were so many redundant or unnecessary words in a single string in this forum on editing.

If you don't like my manner of entry, so be it. The point was to get all our friends thinking and, in your case, that seems to have worked. It's clear to me that you were already thoughtful, by the way, and I appreciated your response.

Just to be clear, the terseness of your entry didn't bother me at all; what did bother me was that it was deeply patronizing. ("Try research ..." - who do you think you are?) Moreover, from your own writing on this forum it's clear that you are in no position to patronize the rest of us. Setting yourself the aim of getting "all our friends thinking" merely reveals your arrogance.

I've said all I want to say on this subject. I like this forum for its possibilities of exchanging ideas and viewpoints among, broadly speaking, like-minded people; let's keep it that way.

 

[HawaiiBill]

I thought this was the Editor's Forum

Just to be clear, the terseness of your entry didn't bother me at all; what did bother me was that it was deeply patronizing. ("Try research ..." - who do you think you are?)

Look. This is the Editor's Forum You have exhibited that you know your way around the tools of the trade. So what's your problem? Editors take on a special responsibility both to the writers they seek to help and the readers who eventually see the product.

To me, being an editor is an obligation to do the best job possible. You seem to suggest that can be done on the fly. Are you telling me that the incidents I mentioned in my first post in this thread -- on the Editor's Forum[/b, keep in mind -- didn't need some thought? This is not a venue used gently for those on literary training wheels.

Writers ask for my help, by the way, and I've yet to have an author who doesn't appreciate candid correction and what you seem to think are tough standards.There is a growing stable of loyal writers who tell me they have advanced into writing for paying publications. I have written professionally for 50 years and 30 of those have also seen me in editing posts. Paid. Problem?

You write: "I like this forum for its possibilities of exchanging ideas and viewpoints among, broadly speaking, like-minded people; let's keep it that way."

How convenient. exchanges among like-minded people Are you kidding?

This isn't your forum to 'keep' in any way at all merely because you think your concept is how the forum should be. We have a perfectly capable moderator who does a great job.

If you don't like the entries of a person -- me being a fine example at hand -- just use your ignore list. That's why it's there.

 

[upfront]

Re: I thought this was the Editor's Forum

Look. This is the Editor's Forum You have exhibited that you know your way around the tools of the trade. So what's your problem? Editors take on a special responsibility both to the writers they seek to help and the readers who eventually see the product.

To me, being an editor is an obligation to do the best job possible. You seem to suggest that can be done on the fly. Are you telling me that the incidents I mentioned in my first post in this thread -- on the Editor's Forum[/b, keep in mind -- didn't need some thought? This is not a venue used gently for those on literary training wheels.

Writers ask for my help, by the way, and I've yet to have an author who doesn't appreciate candid correction and what you seem to think are tough standards.There is a growing stable of loyal writers who tell me they have advanced into writing for paying publications. I have written professionally for 50 years and 30 of those have also seen me in editing posts. Paid. Problem?

You write: "I like this forum for its possibilities of exchanging ideas and viewpoints among, broadly speaking, like-minded people; let's keep it that way."

How convenient. exchanges among like-minded people Are you kidding?

This isn't your forum to 'keep' in any way at all merely because you think your concept is how the forum should be. We have a perfectly capable moderator who does a great job.

If you don't like the entries of a person -- me being a fine example at hand -- just use your ignore list. That's why it's there.

I'm genuinely not clear how your misrepresentations (or misunderstandings) arise. I never claimed this was my forum; I wouldn't be so presumptuous. Neither is it yours.

You seem for some reason to feel the need to exert your editorial credentials (I've noticed you do this rather a lot). I have no reason to doubt that you're a fine and obviously experienced editor. As it happens, I too earn my living as both an editor and a writer. If we were simply having a discussion about different editors' approaches to an editorial issue there would be no problem. It should be perfectly apparent that what I reacted to was your patronizing presumption that I took editorial responsibilites lightly (which, for reasons I can't fathom, you reiterate by saying "you seem to suggest [doing a good job of editing] can be done on the fly" - where on earth did I suggest that?).

Yes, this is the Editor's Forum; it would be appreciated therefore if editors spoke to one another with a modicum of professional respect. That, in essence, is all I asked for in the first place.

 

[HawaiiBill]

End of story

There are those who are excellent writers and editors and such but they can't read. It was never my intention ot hijack the thread but there was a curious set of occurrences in the responses and I pointed them out. One seemed to stick in a British craw.

As I said in my first post in this thread, when those who know me best could still find my usual humor in that post....

Tough love and aloha. And I meant it.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I find myself moving away from the final-comma-in-a-list convention especialy when listing qualities. That's probably because such lists rarely include more than 3 items and the final comma seems superfluous.

"She was trembling, shaking and unsteady" reads better to me than "She was trembling, shaking, and unsteady."

"He was lost, dazed and confused" is better than "He was lost, dazed, and confused."

I'll leave out "reeling, rocking and a' rollin'" because as every Chuck Berry fan knows, the "rocking" and "a'rollin'" just have to go together.

---dr.M.

 

[spyro1123]

I hate commas in general although my sentences tend to need them. I do use one before the and in a list because that is where i would put a pause in if i were talking. The hell with the rest of it lol.

Actually i have my own little grammer things that bug the crap out of me, commas just aren't one of them. but if you say something needs fixed it will annoy the snot out of me.

I know there are a ton of errors in this post and i dont realy care.

 

[spyro1123]

I hate commas in general although my sentences tend to need them. I do use one before the and in a list because that is where i would put a pause in if i were talking. The hell with the rest of it lol.

Actually i have my own little grammer things that bug the crap out of me, commas just aren't one of them. but if you say something needs fixed it will annoy the snot out of me.

I know there are a ton of errors in this post and i dont realy care.