My FF fantasy guilt is getting worse

[HungUpGirl]

I'm female 30-something, 2 wild teenagers, very happy with the multi-O's I get with hubby. I'm smart and graduated from college and work professionally. But what I intellectually believe conflicts with what my emotions say are correct behavior and the guilt is growing.

Since I was a teenager, I've used females in my fantasies. The attraction is black and powerful. I "know" that it's wrong for me to be turned on by other females but I can't hold out against them eventually coming into my mind. The strong emotion I need to overcome the aversion to same-sex combines with the strong attraction I have to same-sex, giving me the most, best, and longest orgasms compared to any other way I've found to cum.

I'm always passive, and my FF fantasies always start with sexual contact -- I don't start by imagining that I'm in a specific environment or that she and I talk or even that we know each other. It's just bang and she's kissing me deeply or sucking on my nipples. I will often cum even before I can imagine her going down on me.

When I'm not sexually aroused, I have no problems with gay and lesbians. I work with some and go drinking with another and are friends with a couple from church. I'll swear that there is nothing wrong with two (or more) females loving each other, just as long as I'm not one of them. Still, I feel guilty after my climax for thinking that I, a female, should be attracted to another female.

It's hard for me to change, but I do. Growth often comes in spurts, and I keep wondering what will help me grow past this point. I've talked a bit about it with hubby, who supports me in anything I want to try (not that I'm very experimental). But I can't even bring myself to tell him about the darker things like being bound and taken by other women (though I enjoy it when hubby does tie-and-tease). I even suspect that I'd really get off on being forced to go down on another girl, but I can't quite let that into my fantasies -- it's somehow just too wrong and I don't overcome my aversion to it.

Does this ring any bells with someone? How did you resolve this? Does it ever resolve? Any suggestions?

 

[abbey_kyle]

I'm smart and graduated from college and work professionally. But what I intellectually believe conflicts with what my emotions say are correct behavior and the guilt is growing......I "know" that it's wrong for me to be turned on by other females....

I am not sure I understand the relation between intellect and class here to your arousal. Because you have a college education (thus privilege, really) and hold a professional position in your career, this should make you too smart to be attracted to the same gender? Do you relate homosexuality with ignorance?

I think this is the first step here, realizing that your attraction is not wrong. I don't understand your placing know in quotations. Does this mean you already understand that your attraction is something you see as part of you and that you are struggling with the cultrual idologies that are making it a burden?

Your belief that attraction to the same gender is wrong and equating it with intellect is a covert thread of homophobia. Until you understand that your attraction to women is not "wrong" you will struggle with this and no posting in an online community will offer you any guidance. It is in you to change your own ideology.

How your attraction affects your marriage should really be the issue here and what you may be asking, I just can't see that in your post. Apologies if that is the point of your posting and I missed it. Just trying for clarification here.

 

[HungUpGirl]

Forgive me, please, for coming across as an intellectual snob, and for not explaining clearly.

All that education means is that I understand that homosexuality is a part of nature, is generally intrinsic in a person's makeup, and not some disease or curse. I am not coming from a position of ignorance or superstition. I even understand that my reluctance to accept my FF attraction is some sort of conditioning or training or psychology or the way I was raised.

But intellectually knowing the above at the top level of my brain doesn't stop the lower levels from telling me my attraction is wrong. I put the word "know" in quotes to try to indicate that my reaction to FF in my fantasy is not from intellectual knowledge, but guilt or conscience or whatever you may call it.

Some people just "know" that spiders are icky and scary and some are poisonous and they can and trap you in their web and they run in terror any time they encounter one.

A student of spiders "knows" from book learning and experience watching spiders that there is almost never a reason to be afraid of them and terror at the sight of them is not rational behavior.

To continue the example, most people would agree that fear of spiders is something to be overcome. A person with this phobia might try and find a community of others who have moved past their phobia and are willing to offer support to those who wish to also get past their phobia.

I've come (after lurking a bit) seeking other people who, perhaps from being told all their childhood that FF is wrong, had problems dealing with their attraction to other females.

Intellectually, I realize and understand that I shouldn't feel guilty. Practically, my emotions aren't cooperating with my intellect, and I still feel guilt even when I don't want to, and intellectually know there is nothing to feel guilty about. I look forward to the day when I gain my freedom from this guilt.

I posted here hoping to find people who matched my condition in the past but have advanced further than I have in the journey. I hope to learn what they had to go through before they were liberated, and get some advice (as if there was ever a magic secret!) that could help me move past this.

Thank you for understanding and sharing.

PS: My marriage is fine, and don't see any negative effects from getting past my guilt. In fact, getting past this would probably be a positive thing. In any case, hubby will be beside me as close as I will let him stand.

Do you have any insight about how reducing my guilt would affect my marriage? Are you suggesting that if I stop keeping the attraction below the surface (remember, I've talked to hubby about this so it's not hidden) I'll dump him and my family and run off with another woman?

 

[abbey_kyle]

thank you for clarifying what I was not quite understanding in your original post.

First of all, no, I do not think that your attraction to women is an indication that your marriage is doomed, or that you should (or will) leave your husband. As a bisexual female that has been invoved in many relationships with married couples, I have often seen the honesty (and recognition) of such an attraction enhance the relationship that couples have. So that is not the suggestion I was making, just trying to figure out if that is what you were asking.

I think that what you are asking here is how to emerge from the prejudices of homosexuality that you have been raised with, depsite knowing the damages (and falsities) of such prejudices.

I think surrounding yourself in any queer community is a good start. Like-mindedness sure helps us feel less marginalized, so in this case, visiting such an online community is a good start.

When you meet other bisexual women (or anyone of queer identity) and start to interact, you will discover the freedom of recognizing such passion within yourself and shed the--to be ultra-academic here--compulsory heterosexulity that our ideology (especially a western American ideology) has created.

your guilt most likely comes from this environment and is aided by all the institutions that created it: religion, family structure, politics, social interactions among peers, etc. This is what the queer community faces every single day, finding a place in a culture that continues to marginalize those identitfied as "other". Breaking away from that is the continual struggle.

That you have your husband's support and knowledge is one benefit that many do not have. Be appreciative of that and use your closeness to access such support.

The only advice I can offer is to make the effort to interact in the queer community within your area. I don't know what kind of setting you live in--urban vs. rural--so this will obviously be either really easy or really difficult to find. But the minute you are able to start interacting--in person--with people that recognize and celebrate your passion and desire, the more that guilt will lessen.

good luck.

 

[SweetErika]

I agree with Abbey...interacting with others, especially bi and bi-curious women could be very helpful. There are groups all over the Internet for women exactly like you.

Since you know it's not wrong intellectually, a good technique is to challenge your beliefs and feelings of guilt. Write down one of your negative thoughts about it and then write all the reasons why that thought is invalid. For example:
"Thinking about women sexually is wrong." (try to be more specific though)
-Attraction is biological.
-I was born with this attraction.
-Just because some people think it's wrong doesn't make it wrong.
-Fantasizing is part of a healthy sex life.
-There's nothing bad about being attracted to women or having sex with them.
-If God condemned homosexuality or bi sexuality, he wouldn't have made me or others this way. (Or something like that...the point is to confront every thought with logic).
-Seeing women pleasure eachother is a beautiful thing.
-Fantasizing or having sex with women doesn't hurt anybody.
-Feeling guilty doesn't mean I AM guilty.
etc.

When you come up with a "but" (e.g.There's nothing bad about being attracted to women or having sex with them BUT it's not okay for me to be attracted or have sex with women), challenge it as well. If you do this enough, logic will take over, your beliefs will change, and the guilt will fade.

Is your church generally open and gay-friendly? If not, you might want to look into another church so your negative beliefs aren't being reinforced.

I don't think letting go of your guilt over this will do anything but improve your marriage and your life. Being true to who you are is always a prescription for happiness.

 

[Etoile]

When I'm not sexually aroused, I have no problems with gay and lesbians. I work with some and go drinking with another and are friends with a couple from church. I'll swear that there is nothing wrong with two (or more) females loving each other, just as long as I'm not one of them. Still, I feel guilty after my climax for thinking that I, a female, should be attracted to another female.

Hi HungUpGirl, welcome to Lit! I see that abbey_kyle and SweetErika have already given you great answers, but I wanted to address this part of your post.

It sounds like you are a "gay collector." This is my own term for people who point out how proud they are to have friends who are gay. In decades past there were "collectors" of black people - the mentality was "Look how accepting and non-racist I am! I have a black friend!" and the same thing applies to gay people.

I would counsel you not to look at these people as the token homosexuals among your friends. They are that, and only that: your friends. The fact that they are gay and lesbian is merely incidental. You are welcome to talk to them when you have questions about gay issues, but other than that they are not "collector's items."

Does that make sense? I don't mean to denigrate you for doing this, I'm just trying to point it out.

 

[CJontherocks]

HungUpGirl,

While I'm sure I cannot be as articulate as the three lovely people who have posted before me, I can offer you this:

I have had similar thoughts on one level or another. I denied my sexuality for a very long time, even while enjoying same-gender sex. "Well, I'm not bisexual because blah blah blah." "I dont yadda yadda, so I must be straight" ... ad nauseum. There was guilt involved on many levels. I was surrounded throughout my life by the attitude that MM and FF sex was wrong and unnatural, and believed it. And there I was at certain points in my life engaged in MM sex. Even my own hypocrisy was a source of guilt. I have finally decided for myself that love, physical and emotional, between two people regardless of gender is an absolutely natural and beautiful thing. I am comfortable with my own sexuality, guilt-free and can discuss it here in this forum and with certain people I trust, but I still do not share it with many. I've got a ways to go, I know.

Oh yeah... the point. The point is this: As I contemplate and discuss my sexuality, or desires, I become more and more comfortable. The more I am exposed to people who enjoy wonderful and healthy MM and FF relationships, the less I am apt to feel guilt based on beliefs I should never have had in the first place. It will be a while yet before I'm ready to shout it from the rooftops... but I'm on my way and I'm happy.

I'm not suggesting that any of my story might apply to you. But maybe simple exposure to and interaction with people who have already traveled this road can help free your soul.

 

[HungUpGirl]

Thank you, abbey_kyle, SweetErika, Etoile, and CJontherocks for the warm welcome.

Again, please let me apologize for framing my situation in a way that might offend some of you. I didn't realize just how sensitivitie some can be after patronizing treatment and empty words about acceptance. Forgive me for bringing these things up again.

I became friends with several people who I discovered after a while were quietly gay. They didn't hide it from friends; they just were discreet about their choices being generally know in a conservative community.

Sometimes I go out with a group after work on Fridays. After maybe 6 months, I gave another girl a lift to a club out in the suburbs where several of the group wanted to hear a particular performer. We made a stop at her apartment; here I realized she and her roommate shared a bedroom. The subject has never been mentioned; it's just implicit that she knows that I know that she sleeps with another female. I have no idea how they relate to each other; they don't have any of the attributes you see in the movies.

I will say it took a while to find what might be the most liberal church in town. Even then, most members prefer the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

Hubby first sensed the relationship between a couple of guys when they went out for a couple of beers after a habitat workday. I noticed they seem to be held apart by many in the congregation so I/we made and effort to incorporate them into church related activities, e.g. talking to them over doughnuts and inviting them to our Sunday School class. As our contacts increased so did our friendship.

I'd like to think that we did it just because they are people like any other, but there was also an ulterior motive: trying to make up for the behavior of others in the congregation who preferred to ignore them.

I really try to take people where they are, as they are. My comments were a poor attempt to show this attitude by listing results. I didn't want to send any message that I "kept score" or "collected gays", just that they came into my life the same way and are a part of my like the same way stright people do.

 

[HungUpGirl]

Abbey_kyle,

I'm here looking for a group to share. I have no idea if there is any sort of real life group I could find, especially in my middle sized bible-belt community. Does anyone have a suggestion about how might I go about looking, other than crusing for gay bars and striking up a conversation?


SweetErika,

Thanks for your suggestion. I do a lot of journaling when I'm in turmoil, and I shall try to write down a list of "reasons" my emotional side puts forth. Maybe pinning them down will let me answer them with specifics as you suggest.

It also occurred to me to ask why this problem has been coming up inside me more and more of recent. I don't know the answer yet, but I'm sure it will be interesting.


One thing I can say is that the emotions during my arousal and fantasies are very strong, and seem to be getting stronger. In one way, the sexual tension and release keeps getting more dramatic as I have to work harder to overcome my guilt during my fantasy and wash it out (temporarily) with the FF attraction and satisfaction from feeling another woman (in my fantasy) make love to me.

This ever-increasing high is something that I both crave and dread. The hill I climb to overcome the guilt gets higher each time, but the ride down the other side gets even wilder every time!

And I also admit I'm a bit scared where this is heading. I'd really like to find others who have been in my position before so I can ask them what the future might hold for me, and how they got off the roller-coaster.


CJontherocks,

Thank you for your comments. I'd like to hear from more people who are coming from where you came. Did you have some sort of epiphany? Where there specific events that bumped your thinking and feelings from one track to another?

 

[SweetErika]

SweetErika,

Thanks for your suggestion. I do a lot of journaling when I'm in turmoil, and I shall try to write down a list of "reasons" my emotional side puts forth. Maybe pinning them down will let me answer them with specifics as you suggest.

It also occurred to me to ask why this problem has been coming up inside me more and more of recent. I don't know the answer yet, but I'm sure it will be interesting.


One thing I can say is that the emotions during my arousal and fantasies are very strong, and seem to be getting stronger. In one way, the sexual tension and release keeps getting more dramatic as I have to work harder to overcome my guilt during my fantasy and wash it out (temporarily) with the FF attraction and satisfaction from feeling another woman (in my fantasy) make love to me.

This ever-increasing high is something that I both crave and dread. The hill I climb to overcome the guilt gets higher each time, but the ride down the other side gets even wilder every time!

And I also admit I'm a bit scared where this is heading. I'd really like to find others who have been in my position before so I can ask them what the future might hold for me, and how they got off the roller-coaster.

Check your PMs for some resources. If you're going to challenge your thoughts and beliefs without a therapist (recommended obviously), do some reading on Cognitive Therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and Cognitive Processing Therapy. There are many, many examples of how to go through the process online. I learned the process in battling PTSD, but I've found it applicable to most areas of my life (VERY good for guilt).
http://www.rider.edu/~suler/cogther.html
http://www.habitsmart.com/pin.html

I think a lot of people experience the thoughts coming in stronger and more frequently with time. I wonder if the desires are buried under so many layers of societal conditioning and resulting guilt that it just takes time to reveal them. When you start peeling the layers back, the urges (and resulting guilt) become stronger.

For me, the fact that I was happily married made it worse...why can't I be satisfied with what I have now? Isn't this betraying him and my marriage? Why couldn't I find this out before I was married so he had the choice? But when I confronted those thoughts and my fears, everything worked out. I know you're just fantasizing, but it might be something else to think about challenging individually and as a couple. That takes away a lot of the fear about where this is heading.

 

[Etoile]

I really try to take people where they are, as they are. My comments were a poor attempt to show this attitude by listing results. I didn't want to send any message that I "kept score" or "collected gays", just that they came into my life the same way and are a part of my like the same way stright people do.

I didn't mean to imply that "keeping score" is a negative thing in all cases. I just thought that, based on your earlier comments, you might not realize you were doing it. I don't think it's ever a conscious practice, but it does happen. Your explanation was not needed - that is, I wasn't asking for it - but it does make your earlier comments much clearer! Thank you for filling in the background.

 

[HungUpGirl]

Thank you all, and especially to those who PMed me. I have a lot to process!

PS: If any late viewers went though something like I'm going through, please don't hesitate to post...

 

[CJontherocks]

CJontherocks,

Thank you for your comments. I'd like to hear from more people who are coming from where you came. Did you have some sort of epiphany? Where there specific events that bumped your thinking and feelings from one track to another?

I didn't notice any startling revelation, except that lately I've thought about it much more. Overall, it was gradual for me. As I said in another post somewhere... a series of short stories that seemed to unfold into the novel that was my existence (or words to that effect). The book is not finished, and I'm both excited about the twists and turns and plot shifts, and nervous about the reviews. But mostly I'm just enjoying each new page I write... especially the rewrites. I know that sounds hokey, but the story's starting to get really good.

 

[geishaGirl]

HungUpGirl I can relate, to an extent, with what you are talking about...I don't think I actually ever felt guilty about my attraction to the same sex, just I was VERY confused by it. It didn't make much sense to me, I didn't understand where it would fit in with my marriage and therefore my life, as I had been brought up to believe in the traditional concepts and practices. In all honesty, I still struggle with wholeheartedly accepting my bisexuality...it would be a lie to say I am in a completely comfortable place.

Sweet Erika's idea on challenging your thoughts sounds like a very positive one. It is something I have done and must continue to do until I reach some sort of peace within myself...so that I feel comfortable within my own skin.

I thought I'd add some thoughts here, but if you'd like to know more you're welcome to PM me

 

[HungUpGirl]

A few resources...

A few resources that SweetErika sent me a while back. I thought they were worth sharing with you all.

I know you're not ready to declare yourself as bi or bicurious, but I think talking to like-minded people will help with the guilt immensely.

If you're looking for extra advice/shared experiences, there are a ton of groups online. Here are a few resources:
http://groups.msn.com/OnTheFlipSide/
http://www.binetusa.org/
http://www.shybi.com/
http://dv-8.com/resources/index1.html
http://bitheway.org/
http://www.biallmeans.org/
http://www.bisexual.org/
http://www.bust.com/girlweb/WWWomen...Bisexual_Trans/
http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo...=bicuriousgirls

Also, try doing a search, and you'll come up with all sorts of groups.

Here are listings of Christian GLBT-positive and support resources (I'm guessing you're more likely to encounter people who are dealing with/have dealt with the same guilt issues):
http://www.rainbowbaptists.org/christian.htm
http://lesbiansclick.com/Religion__...y/Christianity/
http://dir.webring.com/rw?d=Religio...__and_Bisexuals
http://www.fmpflag.org/christianlinks.html

 

[SweetErika]

Thanks, I was too lazy to post them earlier! (Bad allergy season and major sinus headache!)

 

[ReadyOne]

wrong forum

 

[HungUpGirl]

This thing has (reading and thinking and doing some exercises) has opened up a real can of worms. I’m down to issues with love, security, marriage, and fidelity. There is a paper at http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html which speaks about changing core beliefs:

1. “If my partner really loved me, (s)he wouldn’t have any desire for a sexual relationship with anyone else.” --> “My partner loves me so much that (s)he trusts our relationship to expand and be enriched by experiencing even more love from others.”

2. "If my partner were happy with me, and if I were a good partner/spouse/lover/etc., my partner would be so satisfied that (s)he wouldn't want to get involved with anyone else." --> "My relationship is so solid and trusting that we can experience other relationships freely. My partner is so satisfied with me and our relationship that having other partners will not threaten the bond we enjoy."

3. "It's just not possible to love more than one person at the same time." --> "There is an abundance of love in the world and there is plenty for everyone. Loving more than one person is a choice that can exponentially expand my potential for giving and receiving love."

It really speaks to the need for me to change my attitude and beliefs. However, my subconscious still keeps insisting:

First, if I have a FF encounter, it's cheating even if I've got permission to do so. By definition, when you're married you have one and only sexual one partner.

Second, the idea of a FF encounter is attractive; (a couple of people keep coming to mind!) and it won't go away. I've now started thinking about it when I'm not sexually aroused.

As you can see, there's a lot of conflict between those two things.

Then, my intellect says that if I have a sexual encounter with someone other than hubby, then it's only fair that hubby gets to have a sexual encounter with someone other than I. Going down that path raises insecurities like "what if he doesn't come back?"

The irony is that I'm the "other women". I was just out of a divorce, he was living with someone else. We met by accident, he lived in the next town over, we started seeing each other socially -- light dating like drinks and movies. After 3 months, one night we went back to my place and fucked, and fucked again the next week.

Then a friend asked me if I'd asked him about his sexual history, was he was sleeping with anyone else? We had a talk, and he left her a few days later. It really hurt him to leave her. And he says that there wasn't anything wrong between them; that they were happy together, and he didn't take up with me because he wanted out of , or to damage, his relationship with the girl he was living with.

He also has had open relationships in his past and says that this was the one and only time he got involved with someone where it was hidden from any other party, and swears that he'll never do anything like it again. And he's been a model as far as I know, and still suffers occasional guilt and anguish over his actions after all these years.

I've been paranoid about him taking up with anyone, even though intellectually I can see he sincerely keeps his word, and that he doesn't try to hide his female friends, and seems to fully and honestly answer all the questions I ask him.

The couple of times I convinced myself he was seeing someone on the side, I snooped and checked and tracked him and finally in desperation confronted him, but he wasn't hiding anything (or he should work for the CIA!). And that really made me feel guilty for doubting him!

Our communication is excellent, he loves me, romantically, intellectually, and emotionally. He has always supported me, he has restricted his conduct to meet my expectations, and he's worked with me to expand my horizons. He almost seems too good to be true!

I'm beginning to wonder that subconsciously trying to pin an affair on him is just so I can give myself permission to explore.

But if his having an affair would give me the motivation to try, I still think the "no other partner while I'm married" thing would haunt me. I can't accept the "another girl isn't cheating" concept so many women seem to have. And I know that in his past life he had no problem with his then partner taking lovers.

Shit.

The more I dig, the more intractable the problem seems to be. Why can't I get past the cheating problem, and let myself go experiment with his blessing?

Edited to fix URL -- thanks Etoile!

 

[Etoile]

First, if I have a FF encounter, it's cheating even if I've got permission to do so. By definition, when you're married you have one and only sexual one partner.

Not necessarily. I know that's a very common belief in some circles, but it is not true in others. My personal belief is that if you have permission, it's not cheating. Cheating is going behind somebody's back. As for the "definition" of married meaning "monogamous," I think that is up to each individual couple. Many people in the United States are conservative, traditional, and/or religious. Their definition of married does include monogamous, but there are millions of others in the country who do not fit into those three categories. Some of them still believe that marriage means monogamy, but I know there are thousands of couples who are happily polygamous. Some of them are equals all around, and others have a primary partner (the person they're married to) and then other relationships as well.

Then, my intellect says that if I have a sexual encounter with someone other than hubby, then it's only fair that hubby gets to have a sexual encounter with someone other than I. Going down that path raises insecurities like "what if he doesn't come back?"

That's a perfectly rational thing to expect, and a perfectly rational insecurity to have. Yes, if you get to have an outside encounter or relationship, your husband does too. But those insecurities are totally appropriate in response, especially given your husband's previous infidelity.

He also has had open relationships in his past and says that this was the one and only time he got involved with someone where it was hidden from any other party, and swears that he'll never do anything like it again. And he's been a model as far as I know, and still suffers occasional guilt and anguish over his actions after all these years.

Cheating is often a pattern, so it's perfectly reasonable for you to be afraid of it. But you mention that you've even confronted him about it in the past, and you haven't been given any reason to believe that he has been unfaithful while you've been together.

But if his having an affair would give me the motivation to try, I still think the "no other partner while I'm married" thing would haunt me. I can't accept the "another girl isn't cheating" concept so many women seem to have. And I know that in his past life he had no problem with his then partner taking lovers.

I hate when people say that! Same sex cheating IS STILL CHEATING! However... that means defining "cheating" in an appropriate way for you. As I mentioned, I personally believe that if your husband is aware of it and has given his approval, then it's not cheating. But that is my belief, and you are perfectly entitled to yours being different.

The more I dig, the more intractable the problem seems to be. Why can't I get past the cheating problem, and let myself go experiment with his blessing?

Well...I think there's a pretty easy solution, actually. Experiment with him: have a threesome. This could work for a number of reasons. You would get to experience being with a woman. You would be fully aware of what he did during the encounter, and he would be fully aware of what you did. And he wouldn't be seeing another woman, you'd be seeing the same woman! You could both even see her more than once if you liked it! (There are personals places online that advertise for "couple seeking F" or "F seeking couple," so this isn't unusual.) And best of all...most straight guys would love to have a threesome with two chicks!

 

[Etoile]

By the way, the link you posted didn't work. Here's the correct link:
http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html

Looks like a good article!

 

[HungUpGirl]

I received a PM full of wisdom, and with permission, I'm sharing a (slightly) edited version with you, and someone who may come after me:



Yes, it’s a can of worms, but it’s completely worth sorting out, not just for this situation, but for your happiness in the future as well.

“First, if I have a FF encounter, it's cheating even if I've got permission to do so. By definition, when you're married you have one and only sexual one partner.”

If you have a FF encounter with your husband’s permission and support, it’s not cheating. SOME people define marriage as only having one sexual partner. Many people have been happily married and in open relationships for decades. Every couple has a different definition of marriage and relationships, and no way is better than any other. It’s what works for the couple that’s important. Plus, apart from the legal aspect, would your relationship be any different if you weren’t married? Do you see where I’m going with this? Essentially, you need to define what marriage means to you and break down your gut reactions to associate marriage with monogamy and monogamy with cheating.

It’s interesting how you’ve started thinking about women when you’re not masturbating. That’s significant and very good because it means you are breaking through the guilt and your negative beliefs are bending. Tell yourself how good it is that you’re a work in progress and are able to change and grow on your path to knowing your true self. Seriously, there’s nothing bad about this or anything to feel guilty about…you didn’t decide to think about women more, right? You can’t help who you were born attracted to.

“Then, my intellect says that if I have a sexual encounter with someone other than hubby, then it's only fair that hubby gets to have a sexual encounter with someone other than I. Going down that path raises insecurities like "what if he doesn't come back?" “

I had this thought too…I still do. Have you talked to him about it? I suppose I rationalized this away by thinking about how it wasn’t just another sexual encounter…sex with women is completely different. For me, it fulfills a different emotional aspect that I’ve never, ever felt with my husband or any other man. If our husbands have sex with other women, it’d just be sex, not anything special or much different than having sex with us. I think a lot of it comes down to replacement…is the sex with another person something you can do with your partner? For example, if my husbund wanted something really strange that I just couldn’t bring myself to do, I’d likely give him my blessing to get it from somewhere else. Neither of our husbands are capable of giving us what women can, so it’s not replacement, it’s a supplement.

Yes, I agree using your notions that he might be cheating is a bad idea, as is using his former relationships as a standard for what yours should be. I think it will go away when you successfully challenge the ideas that having sex with another woman is cheating and that his past will have an impact on your future. Go back to basics…think about using a “cheat sheet” on a test in school…is it really cheating if the teacher tells you to bring one into the test and use it? No, then it’s called an open notes/book test…you’re not cheating if you have the teacher’s blessing, and you’re not cheating on your husband if you have his blessing either.

This might help you get past some of your beliefs (I filled in the examples to give you an idea of how they are applicable):

Faulty Thinking Patterns

Date: _________

Below are listed several types of faulty thinking patterns that people use in different life situations. These patterns often become automatic, habitual thoughts that cause us to engage in self-defeating behavior.

Considering your own stuck points (things that you keep coming back to), find examples for each of the patterns. Write in the stuck point under the appropriate pattern and describe how it fits that pattern. Then, recognize that these thinking patterns are faulty, and challenge them.

1. Drawing conclusions when evidence is lacking or even contradictory:

Example: Having sex with another woman with my husband’s knowledge is cheating.


2. Exaggerating the meaning of an event:

Example: My husband gave me his blessing, so he must be cheating.


3. Disregarding important aspects of the situation:

Example: If I have sex with a woman, it must be cheating (ignoring his blessing)


4. Over simplifying events or beliefs as good/bad, right/wrong:

Example: Having sex with other people is wrong


5. Overgeneralizing from a single incident: You view a negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat or problems.

Example: He started dating me when he was with someone else, so he’s going to leave me.


6. Mind reading: You assume that people are thinking negatively of you when there is no definite evidence for this.

Example:


Sorry that's so long! I hope it helps a little bit, and if it makes you feel any better, we've all had these conflicts with ourselves at some point. That's really my intention...to show you how I was able to find a way through it, not to preach or tell you what you should do or think.

 

[Etoile]

If you have a FF encounter with your husband�s permission and support, it�s not cheating. SOME people define marriage as only having one sexual partner. Many people have been happily married and in open relationships for decades. Every couple has a different definition of marriage and relationships, and no way is better than any other. It�s what works for the couple that�s important. Plus, apart from the legal aspect, would your relationship be any different if you weren�t married? Do you see where I�m going with this? Essentially, you need to define what marriage means to you and break down your gut reactions to associate marriage with monogamy and monogamy with cheating.

Hey, that's pretty much what I said! This person must be somebody smart.

 

[SweetErika]

Hey, that's pretty much what I said! This person must be somebody smart.

Great minds...Etoile.

 

[assister49]

…sex with women is completely different. For me, it fulfills a different emotional aspect that I’ve never, ever felt with my husband or any other man.

I have been reading this thread with some interest...as I too have FF fantasies, but so far have not had the desire to make them real.

In seeing this comment though, I was wondering... How is the emotional aspect between women having sex different than the male-female emotional aspect?

Great discussions so far. Especially the parts about what is considered "cheating".

 

[SweetErika]

quote:
…sex with women is completely different. For me, it fulfills a different emotional aspect that I’ve never, ever felt with my husband or any other man.

I have been reading this thread with some interest...as I too have FF fantasies, but so far have not had the desire to make them real.

In seeing this comment though, I was wondering... How is the emotional aspect between women having sex different than the male-female emotional aspect?

Great discussions so far. Especially the parts about what is considered "cheating".

The connection I feel is difficult to put into words. It just touches me on a different, deeper, almost spiritual level. It's less focused on sex and more focused on total pleasure, expression, exploration, and nurturing eachother. It feels slower and more sensual. It builds on the love, connection, and everything wonderful about true female friendship. It feels like it's the essence of sex and intimacy in a lot of ways. I wish I could describe it better (perhaps I need some more field research? )! Granted, this has just been my experience and a lot depends on the people and relationship, just like it does with men.