Muslim Gender Equality

[Pure]

for rr,

the tired topic of suicide bombing is really a diversion for this thread.
(let someone set that up as a separate thread, and i'll re post).

the question was: is there anything special about Islam that tends to produce/reinforce gender inequality.

there are women's movements in lots of muslim countries, from Egypt, to Iran, to Jordan, indeed those groups or some individual women have been active for 50 years or more.

 

[R. Richard]

Pure: You say:
P: The points made against islam by rr, coulter, pat robertson etc., are declarations of faith (and hatred). specific facts etc. are largely irrelevant.

If 1000 imams strung up Osama by the thumbs, rr would say, "Did you notice several thousand were missing?"
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My point was, that Islam has certain problems adapting to the modern world because it is extemely decentralized. Any Ayatollah/Imam can issue a fatwa. Said fatwa only affects his followers. If you will read the fatwas you cite, said fatwas say it is not good to kill innocents, bad boy! Said fatwas accomplish nothing, except to give those who want to believe that something is being done examples to point to. Said fatwas are beaux gestes, beatiful in form, lacking any real substance.

You say:
Incidentally it's hardly surprising if the top Saudi clerics denounce Osama's methods. he's a direct threat to them.
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In general, the Saudi's complaint is that Osama wants to overthrow the King.

You say:
the condemnation of any suicidal act, in a war, is probably not forthcoming, since Xtians support such acts. and Jews (Masasa).
US war stories always glorify the fellow who 'falls on a grenade' for his buddies. and perhaps they should. it's not a simple issue to decide which acts of 'self-sacrifice' are glorious but fatal, and which are just stupid or immoral.
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A suicide that saves the lives of others is a turly noble gesture. One that deliberately takes the lives of others is a barbaric act.

You say:
the condemnation of killing civilians as 'ancillary losses' during a war, is not ever going to come either, since American Xtian leaders, political and religious support that, in some circumstances (e.g., Hiroshima; Dresden). i'm afraid civilians are 'fair game,' since at least WWII, if not a few centuries or millennia before (read Deuteronomy
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The atomic bombings of Hiroshima [and Nagasaki] SAVED lives! Said bombings made it obvious that the Japanese could not resist and they surrendered, rather
than fight a bloody, hopeless war against the allies.

The only person who can tell you why Dresden was fire bombed is Winston Churchill. Unfortunately, Winston is suffering from a medical condition that precludes his answering the question.

OK, tell me, what are civilians? Hizb'Allah and Hamas use "civilians" as shields for their operations. In many cases the "civilians are volunteers who hope that world opinion will save them. I don't support the killing of civilians, except as a last resort. I prefer to sell the "civilians" into slavery. That last helps defray the costs of war and makes it damn difficult to recruit civilian shields. If the UN has problems with my methods, I would sell them into slavery also and let them follow the whole process from beginning to end.

During the Viernam war, the North Vietnamese would locate military facilities in civilian areas, a direct violation of the laws of war. Now, Hizb'Allah and Hamas, et al do the same thing. The UN does nothing. Don't tell me the UN can do nothing, all they have to do is cut the flow of civilian supplies to said dual use areas and support areas.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

the tired topic of suicide bombing is really a diversion for this thread.
(let someone set that up as a separate thread, and i'll re post).

the question was: is there anything special about Islam that tends to produce/reinforce gender inequality.

there are women's movements in lots of muslim countries, from Egypt, to Iran, to Jordan, indeed those groups or some individual women have been active for 50 years or more.

Polygamous marriages and the ease of divorce for men certainly has something to do with it.

 

[Pure]

well, judaism worked that [polygamy] through, so why not islam?

there is a polygamy new website, with these stories about Egypt. i gather only 4% of Egyptian males have 2 or more wives.

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/world_news.htm

Reuters, Jan 24, 02

Egyptian Jailed for Marrying Too Many Wives

CAIRO (Reuters) - A court sentenced an Egyptian businessman to seven years
in jail with hard labor Tuesday for having more than the legally allowed number
of four wives at the same time, court officials said.

They said Sayed Ragab al-Sawirki, owner of a chain of stores selling clothes and
home appliances, was sentenced along with six others who played a role in
Sawirki's complicated marital situation.

The investigation showed that Sawirki had five wives at once and had married
19 women, although not all at the same time, the officials said.

Under Islamic law, men can be married to as many as four wives. But polygamy
is not widely practiced in Egypt and a recent television comedy series in which
the main character married four women sparked heated debate about the
practice.

The Koran, the Muslim holy book, says a man can have four wives as long as he
treats them equally. It then makes the observation that this task is impossible. Some schools of Islamic thought believe the passage shows polygamy is not allowed.

The other people sentenced by the court included two clerks. One received a one-month jail sentence and the other a two-year prison term, both for forgery.

Fayez Saad, the father of the fifth wife, Salwa, was fined $43 for forging the birth certificate of his daughter, then 14, so she could marry below the legal age of 16.

Another of the wives, Dina Shukri, received a three-year jail term with hard labor for illegally marrying Sawirki a fourth time after previously divorcing him three times.

Under Islamic law, a woman who divorces the same man three times cannot remarry him again unless she has married a different man in the intervening period.

Shukri's two brothers also received three years each for signing the marriage certificate.

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Down With Polygamy


Feminists were up in arms against the makers of Ramadan serial A’ailet El Hag Metwally (Hag Metwally’s Family) which aired in Ramadan of 2002. What started out as a regular rags-to-riches plot starring the illustrious Nour El-Sherif turned into a diatribe against women when lead character, El-Hag Metwally, took a third wife.

Women’s rights activists attacked the way polygamy was portrayed as ‘normal’ (and perhaps even entertaining) in this unusual family setting where the wives actually got along. The hugely popular series spawned dozens of seminars and was a favorite media topic both at home and abroad. It was also a turning point in the careers of young actresses Ghada Abdel Moneim and Somaya Khashaab.

===
From India:

Hindu News

July 12, 2003
Muslim polygamy a mere myth: Survey

by Rathin Das Ahmedabad

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi may have jibed at Muslims during his 'Gaurav Yatra' last year by saying the fruits of development are neutralised by those who believe in 'hum paanch, hamare pachchis' (we five, our 25). Perhaps he didn't know what he had said is pure myth.

A survey conducted in Muslim-dominated areas of Ahmedabad stands contrary to the general belief surrounding the community's alleged polygamous tendencies, the staple diet of the Sangh Parivar's diatribe.

The survey, conducted in 1993, found that only two persons had four wives, two others had three wives and 279 had two wives. The survey covered eight blocks in the old city and some other areas, which together account for almost the entire Muslim population of Ahmedabad.

While Muslims have often been jeered, that fact is that Hindus are also involved in polygamous practices. As many as 29,951 cases of 'Maitri Karar? (friendship contract) were found officially registered at the District Collectorate at that time. The Maitri Karar was a pact between a married Hindu man and his 'other woman' to circumvent provisions of the Hindu Marriage Act that prohibits another marriage while the wife is still alive, said sources in the legal fraternity.

"It was not legally enforceable, but the Maitri Karar was meant to give a sense of security to the married man's 'other woman'," said lawyer Girish Patel.

Among the Muslims too, the survey? conducted by the Gujarat affiliate of MARG? found that most of the second marriages could be attributed basically to extra-marital affairs, which were legitimised taking advantage of the Shariat laws.

In few cases, the second marriage was solemnised as the first wife was unable to bear a child, said former corporator J.V. Momin. Momin had ordered the survey in the wake of intense criticism from the Sangh on this score soon after the Babri Masjid demolition.

Some cases of second marriage among the Muslims emanated from the need to provide security to widowed sister-in-laws.

 

[R. Richard]

Polygamous marriages were actually and advantage for women, back in the seventh century. The Arabians were mainly nomads who existed in a sort of permanent state of desert warfare. As a result of the warfare, there were many more women than men. Polygamy allowed a successful Muslim man to support more than one wife.

However, the curent situation is not the same as in the seventh century. There are no longer many more women than men and it seems to be that most Muslim men have one wife. However, polygamy is still allowed. [One of the disadvantages of having a daily life regulated by rules over a millenium old.]

 

[Pure]

Two countries have officially outlawed polygamy--Turkey and Tunisia

[New York Times]
By DAN BILEFSKY
Published: July 10, 2006

ISIKLAR, Turkey, July 6 — With his 5 wives, 55 children and 80 grandchildren, 400 sheep, 1,200 acres of land and a small army of servants, Aga Mehmet Arslan would seem an unlikely defender of monogamy.


Though banned, polygamy is widespread in the Isiklar region.
Yet if he were young again, said Mr. Arslan, a sprightly, potbellied, 64-year-old Kurdish village chieftain, he would happily trade in his five wives for one.

"Marrying five wives is not sinful, and I did so because to have many wives is a sign of power," he said, perched on a divan in a large cushion-filled room at his house, where a portrait of Turkey's first president, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who outlawed polygamy in 1926, is prominently displayed.

"But I wouldn't do it again," he added, listing the challenges of having so many kin — like the need to build each wife a house away from the others to prevent friction and his struggle to remember all of his children's names. "I was uneducated back then, and God commands us to be fruitful and multiply."

Though banned by Ataturk as part of an effort to modernize the Turkish republic and empower women, polygamy remains widespread in this deeply religious and rural Kurdish region of southeastern Anatolia, home to one-third of Turkey's 71 million people. The practice is generally accepted under the Koran.

Polygamy is creating cultural clashes in a country struggling to reconcile the secularism of the republic with its Muslim traditions. It also risks undermining Turkey's drive to gain entry into the European Union.

"The E.U. is looking for any excuse not to let Turkey in, and polygamy reinforces the stereotype of Turkey as a backward country," said Handan Coskun, director of a women's center.

Because polygamous marriages are not recognized by the state — imams who conduct them are subject to punishment — the wives have no legal status, making them vulnerable when marriages turn violent. Yet the local authorities here typically turn a blind eye because the practice is viewed as a tradition.

Two years ago, Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan tried to attack polygamy by criminalizing adultery, after prominent members of his Justice and Development Party were rumored to have taken second wives. The European Union, even though it condemns polygamy, criticized him for intervening in the nation's bedrooms, leading him to back down.

In Turkey, polygamy experts explain the practice as a hangover from the Ottoman period, when harem culture abounded and having several wives was viewed as a symbol of influence, sexual prowess and wealth.

Remzi Otto, a sociology professor at Dicle University in Diyarbakir, who conducted a survey of 50 polygamous families, said some men took second wives if their first wives could not conceive sons. Some also take widowed women and orphan girls as second wives to give them a social safety net. Love, he added, can also play a role.

"Many men in this region are forced into marriages when they are as young as 13, so finding their own wife is a way to rebel and express their independence," he said.

Isiklar, the remote village where Mr. Arslan is the aga, or chief, can be found at the end of a long dirt road, surrounded by sweeping verdant fields. Most of the local residents share the surname Arslan, which means lion in Turkish and connotes virility.

Mr. Arslan said he regretted his multiple marriages and had forbidden his sons to take more than one wife. He is also educating his daughters.

"I have done nothing shameful," he said. "I don't drink. I treat everyone with respect. But having so many wives can create problems."

His biggest headache, he said, stems from jealousy among the wives, the first of whom he married out of love. "My rule is to behave equally toward all of my wives," he said. "But the first wife was very, very jealous when the second wife came. When the third arrived, the first two created an alliance against her. So I have to be a good diplomat."

Mr. Arslan, who owns land, real estate and shops throughout the region, said the financial burden of so many offspring could be overwhelming. "When I go to the shoe shop, I buy 100 pairs of shoes at a time," he said. "The clerk at the store thinks I'm a shoe salesman and tells me to go visit a wholesaler."

He also has trouble keeping track of his children. He recently saw two boys fighting in the street and told them they would bring shame on their families. "Do you not recognize me?" one replied. "I am your son."

Religious leaders in the region are beginning to question polygamy. On a recent day at the Ulu Mosque in Diyarbakir, a group of Islamic scholars washed their feet as they debated the merits of a second marriage.

Imam Camisab Ozbek said Islam permitted a man to take up to four wives, but only on the condition that each wife had her own property, assets and dowry. He said some local polygamous men were distorting the Koran's teachings.

"If a husband takes a second wife and doesn't behave equally toward her, when he dies he will be handicapped in the hereafter and go to hell," he said.

Women's groups say polygamy is putting women at risk. "These women can be abused, raped, mistreated, and because their marriages are not legal, they have nowhere to turn," said Ms. Coskun, the director of the women's center, which has opened bread-making factories in poor rural areas where women can work and take classes on women's rights.

 

[R. Richard]

The life of Aga Mehmet Arslan is not really relevant to this thread, since Mr. Arslan is in violation of both Turkish and Islamic law. He violated Turkish law when he took his second wife and Islamic law when he took his fifth wife.

It would appear that Mr. Arslan has reduced the concept of wife down to equivalent with the concept of potato chip: "You can't stop with just one!"