moratorium on abortion

[WriterDom]

Liberals would rather see 10,000 murderers go free than to execute an innocent man. But why not put a moratorium on abortion until the question of when life begins can be answered?

Isn't it state sanctioned murder when the fetus gets his little brain sucked out through a tube? Wouldn't it be more humane to bring the child to term and then kill it by lethal injection?

 

[lavender]

 

[WriterDom]

The prolife answer to Viability


Viability (the point when an unborn baby could survive outside of the womb) is an arbitrary concept. Why isn’t personhood associated with heartbeat (begins just 21 days after conception), or brainwaves (43 days after conception), or something else? The actual point of viability constantly changes because it depends on technology, not on the unborn baby.

Based on the same viability logic, many "born" people are not viable because they cannot survive on their own without the aid of others. Should we abort them too?

http://www.abortiontv.com/AnswersToProChoice.htm#It is uncertain when

 

[lavender]

 

[Laurel]

If they try to escape, I say we amuptate their arms and legs.

 

[bluntforcemama]

The choice of terminating unborn life is left, and should be left always, to the mother. If she is willing to listen to her own morals and beliefs, than so be it. She is the only one who can decide. It's not the place of the government to say that she must have that baby.

It's a very private matter, and I'm not ashamed to say that I have been in that situation, where I had to make a decision.
I know that if the disguised miracle of a miscarriage that hadn't decided for me, I would have lived the rest of my life in guilt. That would be the choice I made, and the consequences that I lived with. It was a choice that I did not let be influenced by anyone else's pressured thoughts and forced upon by morals that were not my own.

You all know that I'm not necessarily a bad person because of my decisions, that they don't always define who I am, but we constantly recreate ourselves throughout our lives, and if you know how old I am, than you know that I was nothing more than a child when I was forced to decide, and then had that decision made for me by my own body. It was a spontaneous abortion, isn't that what a miscarriage is? If I had had that baby, I would be 22 with a 5 year old, not that it would be an impossible task, but I'm glad that the decision came down to my body's own desires.

This does not make me a "slut," either, for many of those who harbor their own stereotypical faults. Most of you also know that I have only had one partner with which I made a clean break from only a bit ago after 5 years. So judge me for my decisions, but remember that you don't have the right to judge until you've been there yourself; laying in bed with morning sickness at the age of 17, knowing that the cramps you're feeling in your womb are the sure signs of a dying life inside of you, and knowing that feeling relief might be blasphemous, but you can't help yourself, knowing that in some twisted manner, you've been given a reprieve.

So to all of you who think what only you and I know what you're thoughts are on my moral flexibilities: Fuck you, you don't know the half of it. It's such an intimate part of the human that has to bear that life, that you might not even conceive of the notion, the emotions that reign in your mind, the most primitive parts that spell out your future in terms of survival, and not God-fearing masses. I was an atheist until I had that miscarriage.

 

[Texan]

First of all, I don't think men really have much of a right to discuss this topic. They don't have to deal with a pregnancy the way a woman does.

I'm not going to argue the abortion issue. I am pro-choice, but not because I think it's right to abort a fetus, but rather because I think the government needs to stay out of what is essentially a religious or moral issue, to be dealt with individually....

But lavender..... your statement above finds its way to my short list of the most SEXIST things I have ever heard. Men have EVERY right to discuss ANY topic. And besides, men have to deal with pregnancy at a high level also. I know this from very painful experience. Parents also have to deal with pregnancy and the abortion issue related to their teen-age sons and daughters.... and an awful lot of us parents are men.....

 

[bluntforcemama]

I'm not going to argue the abortion issue. I am pro-choice, but not because I think it's right to abort a fetus, but rather because I think the government needs to stay out of what is essentially a religious or moral issue, to be dealt with individually....

But lavender..... your statement above finds its way to my short list of the most SEXIST things I have ever heard. Men have EVERY right to discuss ANY topic. And besides, men have to deal with pregnancy at a high level also. I know this from very painful experience. Parents also have to deal with pregnancy and the abortion issue related to their teen-age sons and daughters.... and an awful lot of us parents are men.....

Then let me repeat myself:

You don't have the right to judge until you've been there yourself; laying in bed with morning sickness at the age of 17, knowing that the cramps you're feeling in your womb are the sure signs of a dying life inside of you, and knowing that feeling relief might be blasphemous, but you can't help yourself, knowing that in some twisted manner, you've been given a reprieve.



Now show me a man who has been through that.

 

[lavender]

 

[unusuallyconfused]

This is purely non-judgemental. I have been on both ends of this debate. I just know that no one ever, ever forgets that they have had an abortion. There are many late abortions at 20 plus weeks and those babies are viable now. Also, If you see what they look like you may change your mind because they do look like a baby. If It was nothing, then why do people remember that they have had one. Why do I hear women say they won't give the baby up for adoption because they could never do that... once they saw it they couldn't give it up......I just think that is very selfish... Its like if I don't want it, no one else can have it.......I have seen babies in the womb at the 12 week period and they respond to movement outside of the womb and move when bothered........I don't know, I just think there is a lot more to this than a womans choice.

I also believe it sucks that a fathers only rights to a kid are child support. There is something very wrong with that.

We all make mistakes and we all do stupid things........I'm not judging any one for their beliefs since for a long time I felt the same way..........I don't feel that way anymore.......

 

[ChaoticLil]

I have been in that situation twice (the pill doesn't work for me). Both times I briefly considered abortion, but couldn't do it. I carried both children for 9 months only to give them up without even seeing them. For someone to say that adoption is less traumatic than abortion, well, they have NO idea.

My daughter would have been 20 last January. I met her finally in June of 2000, only to lose her a month later through a car accident. I even found out that I am techically a grandmother. My son will be 18 in October, and I have yet to meet him.

Personally I believe that the father/parents have a right to discuss the alternatives with the pregnant girl, but the decision ultimantly should be the girl's. We also have to be aware that not all parents or father's would take the news of a pregnancy very well. My own father tried to kick me out of the house (his mother wouldn't allow it), and my oldest son's girlfriend was scared to death once because she thought she was pregnant. He dad would have thrown her out if she was. This is why it needs to be the pregnant girl's decision. She is the only one who knows what is right for her .

 

[Texan]

Then let me repeat myself:

You don't have the right to judge until you've been there yourself; laying in bed with morning sickness at the age of 17, knowing that the cramps you're feeling in your womb are the sure signs of a dying life inside of you, and knowing that feeling relief might be blasphemous, but you can't help yourself, knowing that in some twisted manner, you've been given a reprieve.

Now show me a man who has been through that.

Myst, you don't have to repeat yourself, but your post wasn't even there when I posted mine.

However, my argument is with ANYONE who believes that it takes two people to conceive a child but only one becomes a parent. Twice in my life, I have been told by someone I was only dating, that she was pregnant. Many nights, I have lain awake trying to decide what options I was willing to offer to a woman, who had this terrible decision to make. Twice I have offered marriage knowing the relationship was not ready for that step. Twice I have have honored a woman's decision and been there before, wiated during, and took the woman home to provide comfort. And for more than 15 years, I have wondered if my complicity and support was the right decision. And for the rest of my life, I will wonder.

I feel sincere sympathy for you, and everyone faced with this decision, and I have a lot of trouble making this a political argument. My argument is with anyone who feels that a caring man has no business discussing this topic...

 

[Laurel]

I'm not going to argue the abortion issue. I am pro-choice, but not because I think it's right to abort a fetus, but rather because I think the government needs to stay out of what is essentially a religious or moral issue, to be dealt with individually....

That's kind of my feeling about it. I understand WD's point, and I agree to some extent. I think the majority of abortions could have been avoided with a little common sense. It's a procedure that - no matter what your opinions on the fetus may be - can be VERY harmful to the woman. It's a serious procedure that should not be used as birth control. I do believe a fetus is a life. I would not abort a child. But I respect the right of others to believe otherwise.

The big difference is that the Death Penalty is a legislative issue while abortion is a personal issue. I don't believe the government should use my money to kill people, guilty or not. I also don't believe the government has the right to tell its citizens how to handle their pregnancies. I think China's one-child policy is abhorrent. I think an anti-abortion policy in the US would be similiarly invasive.

Criminalizing an act simply because a fraction of the population may abuse it is bad law. Should we bring back Prohibition because some people become alcoholics, even if the majority are able to drink responsibly? Shoudl we ban guns because some people use them irresponsibly? Should we ban cars because some people are shitty drivers? Freedom involves trusting the populace, and allowing them to be idiots. When they're idiocy affects others, they should be punished. Otherwise, get the eff out of my business.

 

[bluntforcemama]

True, abortion should never be used as birth control, it's just plain stupid, and far too dangerous. But there are times when birth control fails.

 

[doctor_insanus]

My mother got pregnant with me during her junior year of high school. She dropped out for a year to care for me, then returned to school. Despite the urging of my grandparents, she decided to skip college and get a job to help raise me.

This was during a time when abortions were much rarer than they are today. She had little choice in the matter. Since then, she has led a very successful life, and has never expressed anything but happiness in giving birth to me.

Despite this, I always wondered: if the option had been there for her, would she have taken it? It certainly would have made her life easier.

It is, of course, every woman's right to choose. I just think the attitude that "men have no say in the matter" is just a little bit short-sighted.

 

[WriterDom]

That's kind of my feeling about it. I understand WD's point, and I agree to some extent.

My belief is that the soul enters around the time of birth. So to me a ban on abortion could only be justified if we were running out of people. I know there are a few pro choice republican organizations. Out of curiosity, do the democrats include any pro life views under their tent?

 

[Pyper]

WD, I believe, as some of the other democrats on the board have expressed, that you can be pro-life AND pro-choice. I am a leftist democrat, but I would never have an abortion. I don't believe in a soul, nor do I believe a fetus is a person, but I still wouldn't terminate my potential offspring (can you tell I've been studying too much biology?) However, I am also pro-choice, because I believe no matter what my views on what I should do with my body are, I have no right to try to impose those views on other women. I believe in life, but I also believe in CHOICE. Abortion is a private decision, and it doesn't belong in the hands on the government.

Tangent political statement: How come Republicans are so adamant about their private rights to keep guns and not be taxed, but think it is okay to legislate morality?

 

[Laurel]

My belief is that the soul enters around the time of birth. So to me a ban on abortion could only be justified if we were running out of people.

Which we're definitely not...That's an interesting concept, btw. Since politics are so played out here at Lit, it might be cool to start a thread about people's views on the soul & the spirit.

I know there are a few pro choice republican organizations. Out of curiosity, do the democrats include any pro life views under their tent?

Oh, definitely. There are many pro-life Dems, just like there are pro-choice Republicans. Their logic is, how can you be anti-death penalty and be pro-abortion? Obviously, those are two entirely separate issues. The death of a fetus is not the same as a that of a murderer.

Off topic, my opposition to the death penalty isn't based in some warm fuzzy feeling I have for criminals (though I do try my best to have compassion for all living things, and it's not always easy, lol). It's based on my belief that our government should not murder its citizens. It's based on the fact that the death penalty is expensive, ineffective as a deterrent, and promotes the kind of feelings in its populace that we despise in those criminals we execute. How can we say we're any better than Ted Bundy when we're drooling over the prospect of watching another person die?

 

[bluntforcemama]

Tangent political statement: How come Republicans are so adamant about their private rights to keep guns and not be taxed, but think it is okay to legislate morality?

Oh God, Pyper, I LOVE you!

 

[unusuallyconfused]

WD, How come Republicans are so adamant about their private rights to keep guns and not be taxed, but think it is okay to legislate morality?

Isn't murder, rape and incest legislating morality? Isn't stealing immoral, or what about white collar crimes. It is all about legislating morality, I think. Damn I quake every time I go up against the extremely intelligent lol.

 

[Laurel]

Isn't murder, rape and incest legislating morality

I'm not sure...I think laws against murder and rape can be justified on other than moral grounds. If you assume (as I do) that the main purpose of government is to allow its citizens the greatest freedom, then laws against activities in which one person harms another would make sense. Murder and rape are acts in which one person interferes with the liberty of another. Same applies to laws against theft, arson, etc.

Incest is an example of a moral law. If two cousins want to date, why should they be stopped? However, parent-child incest - in which the power balance is tipped hard to one side - should be illegal because a child's liberties could be violated.

Truly moral laws are like those against prostitution and drugs. If I want to pay a man to have sex with me, and he agrees, whose liberties are being violated? If I wanted to smoke pot at my house, who am I harming? "But Laurel, what if you get stoned and go driving and kill someone with your car?" Well, that's why DUI laws are sensible laws - because if I'm intoxicated behind the wheel, then I can potentially kill someone, thereby violating their liberties. However, the act of smoking pot on my private property harms no one but possibly myself. The same can be said of alcohol and tobacco, which are legal.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Laurel, were those some of the arguments that you use that you don't really believe in?

 

[Laurel]

Are you picking on me again, OC? Didn't you and I do the abortion thing already?

 

[Laurel]

Clarification: I didn't mean to imply that OC or myself had an abortion. So we're all clear.

 

[Pyper]

Belated joke:

OC had an abortion?!