"Mom Comes To" by burgwad

[burgwad]

Hey, you.

My new incest (mom/daughter) story Mom Comes To is off to a classic start: ~2 out of 5 stars, after 30+ votes. [bows]

I really do try my dangedest to prioritize fun-factor over style/weirdness, but I always wind up putting off a large swath of I/T readers. Still, it's a creatively energizing goal of mine to strive to bridge this divide. If you've read Mom Comes To and have thoughts, please share them! Gentle thoughts, hard thoughts, I'm here for all of it so long as it means well.

 

[alohadave]

It's really hard to read. After a few lines, I skimmed through and it's all the same. The short lines really don't work. And being 7 pages long, I noped out of it.

The lack of quotes drives me crazy. I know it's a trendy thing to do, but it takes a lot more effort to parse it when reading.

 

[burgwad]

Thank you, dave, and aloha. I hear you.

But if you've got it in you, I have a follow-up Q: Are you saying you feel that I've made a mistake before I've even begun, because short lines are an inherently bad idea? Or that the short lines could have worked, but I've used them clumsily in Mom Comes To? If you think short lines could work, please share how you might use them differently than I have here.

If it's in good sport, please let me challenge something you've said. Mom's prose goes through a few, gradual, but conspicuous shifts in rhythm, tone, and purpleness. Mom, too, changes substantially (or learns a lot about herself) as her story trudges relentlessly on, and the ways the short lines of her narrative flow/rhyme/"feel" change to reflect this personal development.

And if it's in sporty sport, please let me defend my honor in one way: I don't do what's trendy. I do what feels right for each story on its own terms. Dropping quotes was a no-brainer for this piece. I want the dialog to grate. I especially want it to feel tedious and effortful in the early-going, as Mom is having to navigate all these stupid fucking conversations while her life falls apart. I want the relative non-communicativeness of speech to exhaust readers like it exhausts Mom, and I want the catharsis of non-talking, of decision, of communication by any way but speech to stand out to readers like it does to Mom.

Apologies for my swift and probably sort of emotional response. I've tried to keep it about the craft.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Huh... I am sorry but I must second @alohadave 's opinion. Your story is unreadable to me. The writing style doesn't work at all.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

But if you've got it in you, I have a follow-up Q: Are you saying you feel that I've made a mistake before I've even begun, because short lines are an inherently bad idea? Or that the short lines could have worked, but I've used them clumsily in Mom Comes To? If you think short lines could work, please share how you might use them differently than I have here.

There's a difference between short lines and short paragraphs. You have the latter. And it makes the whole story appear like a script for a screenplay. Like, this would work perfectly if you had some guy holding it while reading those lines out as instructions to his actors, so they know what they're supposed to do. It's just... it doesn't feel like a story to me.

Also, I don't have any hard data on that since I never published my stories here, but I always had the strong impression that the I/T category is mainly used by people looking for either wholesome stories or quick stroke material. Now, your story is tagged with "questionable consent", which goes against the wholesome aspect, and with "slow-burn", which goes against the stroking aspect.

Also, you start out with this:
"I have written "Mother Comes To" to be unsettling. More attention than normal is paid to stressful, disturbing, and anxiety-producing aspects of incest."

That's not something that'll garner great ratings unless it's a literary masterpiece.

 

[alohadave]

Or that the short lines could have worked, but I've used them clumsily in Mom Comes To?

It could work to show her state of mind if it wasn't most of the text.

And if it's in sporty sport, please let me defend my honor in one way: I don't do what's trendy. I do what feels right for each story on its own terms. Dropping quotes was a no-brainer for this piece. I want the dialog to grate. I especially want it to feel tedious and effortful in the early-going, as Mom is having to navigate all these stupid fucking conversations while her life falls apart. I want the relative non-communicativeness of speech to exhaust readers like it exhausts Mom, and I want the catharsis of non-talking, of decision, of communication by any way but speech to stand out to readers like it does to Mom.

Fair enough, you accomplished your goal. And I don't mean that sarcastically. What it means is that your audience who will appreciate what you've attempted will be pretty small.

If it's in good sport, please let me challenge something you've said. Mom's prose goes through a few, gradual, but conspicuous shifts in rhythm, tone, and purpleness. Mom, too, changes substantially (or learns a lot about herself) as her story trudges relentlessly on, and the ways the short lines of her narrative flow/rhyme/"feel" change to reflect this personal development.

I'll accept that this is the case. I couldn't get past the first page, so I'll take your word on it.

Apologies for my swift and probably sort of emotional response. I've tried to keep it about the craft.

No apology needed, you defended and explained your work in a calm manner.

 

[burgwad]

@OverconfidentSarcasm

Okay! I really appreciate the thought you've put into the whole reader engagement puzzle.

I'm intrigued to hear that Mom Comes To doesn't "feel like a story to [you]." It's abstract but useful information to me. I broke a convention that, to your eye, is lethally important to storytelling.

Coincidentally, I do love reading screenplays. I've also been reading a lot of graphic novels, which can have a similarly clippy pace. Granted, screenplays are not often viewed as standalone works but as just one part of a bigger production. And graphic novels get away with "clippy" storytelling by letting the visuals do a lot of legwork. Would you say Mom Comes To feels to you like a screenplay for a graphic novel that hasn't been illustrated yet?

@alohadave

Civility appreciates civility. I really am trying to do my own thing, but better and more approachably. With you and Awk and OS, I've failed the "approachability" clause, and that's on me.

@WhoeverMightYetPost

I am excited to engage with someone who's read all the way through my piece. If that turns out to be no one, then shucks. But I'll be eagerly refreshing my inbox all day today.

 

[burgwad]

@alohadave

You've got me wondering, what could I be doing to broaden the appeal of something as deliberately strange as Mom Comes To? Let's say theoretically I've written a version of it that sticks the landing, even while superficially resembling its failed former self. How did I do that? Or if that thought experiment just feels like too big an ask, maybe I can zoom out to the bigger Q here: How can I grow from That Guy Who Writes Weird Shit into That Guy Who Writes Weird Shit But We Wouldn't Have It Any Other Way? As much as it might seem like I just want to flex my unique special wonderfulness, I'm really not trying to bother anybody who isn't interested. Does this make sense? I guess I just mean I want to be good at what I do.

@everybody

This thread is for shoptalk. I'm here to learn how to connect my style with its potential fan-base, bonus points for figuring out how to broaden my appeal while we're at it. Telling me my writing style sucks, while it does put a little extra fire in my belly (hence my genuine thanks), doesn't contribute much in terms of helping anyone to solve the puzzle of self-growth.

Also, hey. I'm not above admitting I feel a little insulted by how casually we are admitting we have not read my work before deciding it isn't worth reading. I get if you're not hungry for my Green Eggs & Ham, that's fine. But where I come from, it's considered in poor form to participate when you haven't read the piece being workshopped. The worse the piece, the more you should relish completing it, so that you can more comprehensively destroy it. Sorry for making this about feelings. But I like my writing.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Well, one must respect your ability to take criticism. I was in a bit of a hurry so I didn't have time to expand on my thoughts properly. I am not familiar with many modern writing styles, so you should take my post with a grain of salt. That being said, I truly couldn't make myself read the story after the first 1k words. The short sentences that cut off abruptly felt like a slap in the face for me. I am not sure you would be able to convey any emotion in such a sentence style, but more than anything, the writing style is breaking immersion in an absolutely indomitable way.
I must applaud your bravery in trying to write a story in such a style, but I believe that the average reader will find it as unreadable as I did. You could maybe try this writing style in some specialized forum that promotes such styles, but I think that if you keep pursuing such a style here, you are setting yourself up for failure.
All the best.

 

[alohadave]

I'll give it another try and see if I have useful suggestions.

 

[alohadave]

Thoughts:

This reads like a poem. Not a rhyming poem, but it has a rhythm to it.

The incest as a serious crime doesn't really hit home. Sure it's a crime, but I feel that public reaction wouldn't be as severe as made out. The reactions of disgust by people watching the videos felt over the top. Plus everyone having cell phones on in the court room really pulled me out of immersion.

The conversations have a lot of weight to them, and the way they seem to talk past each other and not look at each other feels realistic of people having trouble saying what they are feeling.

One thing that struck me is that some of the reaction from outside the family is that it comes across that Daughter is underage. I know you explicitly state that she's over 18, but I don't see the reaction being as intense when Daughter is over 18. Plus with the numerous videos, it comes across as something Father and Daughter have been doing for a good amount of time.

The lack of quotes didn't bother me during this read. You have formatted it consistently so that you know where the dialog is.

The head hopping was a little much at times, with no transition between viewpoints. I was able to follow, but each one is a little shock.

I wonder what was going on with the cell phone, and Mom's mental state. I wonder how much of this was real, and what was only in her head.

I've never read anything like this. I'm glad I put the effort in, but it's something I don't think I could read again. It was raw and you've distilled a story to it's absolute bare bones, so for that I salute what you've made. I think that people who put in the effort to read it will be rewarded, but you will likely find that those people are a rarity.

 

[burgwad]

Thoughts:

This reads like a poem. Not a rhyming poem, but it has a rhythm to it.

The incest as a serious crime doesn't really hit home. Sure it's a crime, but I feel that public reaction wouldn't be as severe as made out. The reactions of disgust by people watching the videos felt over the top. Plus everyone having cell phones on in the court room really pulled me out of immersion.

The conversations have a lot of weight to them, and the way they seem to talk past each other and not look at each other feels realistic of people having trouble saying what they are feeling.

One thing that struck me is that some of the reaction from outside the family is that it comes across that Daughter is underage. I know you explicitly state that she's over 18, but I don't see the reaction being as intense when Daughter is over 18. Plus with the numerous videos, it comes across as something Father and Daughter have been doing for a good amount of time.

The lack of quotes didn't bother me during this read. You have formatted it consistently so that you know where the dialog is.

The head hopping was a little much at times, with no transition between viewpoints. I was able to follow, but each one is a little shock.

I wonder what was going on with the cell phone, and Mom's mental state. I wonder how much of this was real, and what was only in her head.

I've never read anything like this. I'm glad I put the effort in, but it's something I don't think I could read again. It was raw and you've distilled a story to it's absolute bare bones, so for that I salute what you've made. I think that people who put in the effort to read it will be rewarded, but you will likely find that those people are a rarity.

Mom Comes To is technically a prose poem. I wonder if branding it as poetry would help its reception? Could it help the format seem less gimmicky to unsuspecting readers? I’d only have to worry about misleading readers in the poetry camp; to my mind, poems tend to foreground their poets’ inner lives, and so typically only employ story where it serves to help make bigger more abstract points, on top of employing all the mechanical shenanicals we associate with poetry, e.g., artful use of enjambment, rhyme, meter, etc.; none of which is quite what Mom Comes To is doing. To me, a more accurate label would be experimental fiction, but then even that connotes hugh-falutin’ meta-mechanical stuff I’m really not trying to mess with. So: hm. At least you’ve got me thinking about this now.

I appreciate that you read Mom
Comes To. That is awesome of you. If ever you find yourself hankering for a piece of feedback, I feel like I owe you one.

To address one of your notes: Mom is two different unreliable narrators. The first has an untreated anxiety/panic disorder that goes haywire following her husband’s arrest, and her narration is disjointed, dissociative, and unpleasant. The second arises following her diagnosis (off-screen but explicitly referenced) and subsequent prescription of anxiety meds, and this version of Mom is markedly more stable, even upbeat, so long as she’s steering clear of major triggers (e.g., coming home to a suspiciously quiet house).

 

[burgwad]

I’m in the middle of trying to re-categorize this story from I/T to Poetry. I’ve also retitled her (“Momscrolling”) and changed up the disclaimer at the top to better warn readers what is in store. I removed the questionable consent tag, as it was never all that necessary. And I added a smidge more polish to the opening, since we all seemed to agree it was tedious to a fault. It is still tedious, but hopefully no longer “to a fault.”

Thanks again, @alohadave . Hopefully all of these little adjustments to how and where I present the piece helps her find a more appropriate and appreciative audience. As vehemently negative as reader response has been so far, I remain steadfast in my love for this project, and believe wholeheartedly that people will come around to her.

What an incredible lesson this has been. Granted, ALL of my work is strange, and demanding of readers, and all of it garners lower ratings than has ever made practical sense, but this is the first time I put out something so unapologetically bizarre that people started getting straight-up inhospitable. I am glad, though, as this finally spotlighted the need for me to put more thought into how I categorize and present my work. At least until @burgwad is a more established brand, I may need to open my stories with disclaimers warning readers of my artsy-fartsy strangeness. And while I am now and forever an I/T writer, I can accept that the I/T crowd just may not be my people. This sits okay with me.

 

[lovecraft68]

Thoughts:

The incest as a serious crime doesn't really hit home. Sure it's a crime, but I feel that public reaction wouldn't be as severe as made out. The reactions of disgust by people watching the videos felt over the top. Plus everyone having cell phones on in the court room really pulled me out of immersion.

I haven't finished it yet, the style isn't easy and my focus is out of whack lately, but I think you're the one off about people being disgusted by incest, and it being a crime.

The story is on lit, but the setting is not lit. Get out of the porn world and this is seriously sick stuff.

I'm thinking the two issues with the piece is the writing style, it reads like some type of very long poem, but more so the fact the story is taking the fun erotic fantasy of taboo and dragging it into real life responses to it.

I applaud the effort involved in that. I know from experience you can be setting yourself up for some abuse if you dare provide a real life speedbump in I/T.

 

[Rob_Royale]

If I have to force myself to read in order to understand where you are going with this, it's not successful. Even if you do move it to poetry, it's 21k words, and that will dissuade most poetry readers. Any chance of a rewrite?

 

[Devinter]

Oh wow.. Uhm.. Listen, this is going to sound harsh, but I feel like I need to be clear; to me, it reads as if you just found a pen for the first time in your life and wasn't even quite sure of which end of it to use. I can't get through this text. It doesn't even feel like you're trying to portray a story to a human audience, but rather as if you're writing for a robot or something. Maybe an alien.

THAT BEING SAID; You like the story this way! And if you do, that means there must be others. Even if you are a small group, most likely there's someone out there that thinks this is absolutely brilliantly fantastic - the best way ever to tell a story. I genuinely believe your style is unique enough that most people wouldn't even have come across something like this before in their lives, and you might even open the eyes for a few people to something they didn't even know that they enjoyed. And that's awesome, in a way. But don't expect to get a good rating, or for most people that click on your story to finish reading it, because the vast majority will find it off-putting to a very large degree. And that's not even taking the plot itself into account.

If I were you, would I change it? No. It's too unique. It's like a Jackson Pollock painting in story form. Art to some, garbage to others. Perhaps in many years, your work will be praised as the pioneering story that ushered the literary world into a new era! I say; own it!

https://cdn.britannica.com/24/38524-050-C90B3D2A/Jackson-Pollock-painting-studio-Long-Island-New-1950.jpg

 

[burgwad]

@Devinter It's not harsh, but it also isn't a very serious critique. I'd probably compare Pollock more closely to Stein, or to Danielewski at his most experimental. I think a closer comparison for Mom Comes To could be Nick Drnaso, whose spare, alienating graphic novels do have a kind of poetic logic to them.

@Rob_Royale

@lovecraft68 Hey. Thanks. I feel like I actually pull some of my "realism" punches by making Mom an unreliable narrator, and esp. by veering into surrealism any time she steps outside the comfort of her own home.

In haters' defense, this piece is very, very different from the best erotica on Lit. And anything different from good is not good, right? Rare enough is the exception, anyway. It's a defensible heuristic. I'm not about to would-you-could-you with anybody. I am burgwad, not Sam I Am.

 

[Devinter]

In your opening post you wrote "I really do try my dangedest to prioritize fun-factor over style/weirdness" and I don't think that is how it comes across to the average reader. My impression is the exact opposite.

And I used Jackson Pollock as an example for the simple reason that he's well-known and critically acclaimed as one of the most influential artists of the past 100 years, yet when I look at one of his pieces, all I see is random lines. It doesn't do anything for me. Simply put; I don't get it.

There's probably a poet's soul in you that operates on a different wavelength than most - and as I originally stated, I don't think you should change it in an attempt to improve your score. You have something unique here - why not embrace it, and ignore what the non-believers think?

 

[burgwad]

@Devinter Right on.

 

[burgwad]

Update: The Poetry submission attempt got kicked back. Apparently, this piece has too much plot to be a poem. So it remains in I/T, where it also doesn't quite belong.

I'm still submitting an edit request so that I can give it a new title, a better disclaimer, and some subtle but necessary polish to the main text. These revisions are intended to help the story find its readership a little bit more effectively. Again, I'm really not trying to bother people who aren't in the mood to read something so strange.

That said, rest assured this does not reset the abysmal ratings. Those I must wear with pride, in perpetuity.

 

[Auden James]

How does this most recent effort of yours abide by "The Complete Rules of Erotica" you laid down yourself? Have you abandoned them? If so, why?

At first glance, the format reminds me somewhat of J R by William Gaddis, though, evidently, your story is not told almost entirely in dialogue. Maybe that's one reason why it does not work (well)? Apart from that the POV—to put it lightly—is slightly off or "weird" (despite your assertion that you try your "dangedest to prioritize fun-factor over style/weirdness"). What kind of narrator is that? Apparently one who is present everywhere all at once (at the telephone, the door, the prison, the daughter's room, etc.), but who still has virtually no insight into anything at all and no inner life or "self" to speak of, as the narrator is only ever reporting from the outside what this someone or that someone says or does. Is there any description, any reflection in these endless one-liners?

And that, apparently, no one has any name but is only ever indicated by their role (mom, dad, daughter, police officer, lawyer, etc.) is so utterly contrived that it starts to grate on the reader's nerves pretty quickly. I guess, that is one—if not the—reason for the comments about "robot," "alien," "instructions," "shopping list," and "quick notes" (my personal favorite) as this is exactly what your lineup of extremely simple sentences with ever the same subjects (see roles above) reads like.

Hence, at least to my mind, @Whirling Dervish's verdict seems plausible and pretty much in line with Truman Capote's famous final analysis of Jack Kerouac's work, "That's not writing, that's typing."

 

[burgwad]

What kind of narrator is that? Apparently one who is present everywhere all at once (at the telephone, the door, the prison, the daughter's room, etc.), but who still has virtually no insight into anything at all and no inner life or "self" to speak of, as the narrator is only ever reporting from the outside what this someone or that someone says or does. Is there any description, any reflection in these endless one-liners?

I appreciate the questions you ask! I'm not big on explicating my own work, but you've teed me up well; and plus, "Momscrolling" (nee "Mom Comes To") is still presently short on defenders, so until they start to show up, I suppose Papa Bear can hang.

The narrator is a manifestation of Mom's disembodied inner voice, and so we get regular glimpses into her emotional states--at least as often as they occur to Mom; which is to say, they do admittedly drop off once her meds kick in early in Act 2. Still, many of her harder, messier emotions are implied in her behavior or in what she chooses to attend to, rather than being directly stated. This for me is both a matter of taste (i.e., showing > telling) and craft, as I decided it was appropriate for a character as pathologically lacking in self-insight as Mom to reflect less often (N.B., recall the story was once called "Mom Comes To," meaning our protagonist's tendency toward unawareness is titular). Like any of us, though, she reserves the right to swat her pesky inner narrator away, and does so especially often in the early going of the story, while her life is a shameful, tedious, disorienting nightmare.