Minorities? Blameless? Noble? Martyred? Victims? Targets? Suffering? Virtuous?

[Sparky Kronkite]

No.

Not just by pure and simplistic virtue of "being" a defined minority - no.

Minorities are people first - just like you and I. Everyday people. And they should be treated just like you and I.

There is nothing innately "special" about being a minority. And no special treatment should be given.

And no member of a defined minority - should expect special treatment.

Nope.

It ain't right. It's wrong.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Unfortunately, Sparkster, the powers that be in our capitalist society, that is those who control the means of production of goods, give preferential treatment to those who happen to be born in the white person's minority. Until such time as this preferential treatment goes away, then laws must be enacted to ensure that the hiring base is kept equal. No one should get preferential treatment, period. I agree that those of us who don't have it shouldn't try to be like those of you who do, rather those of you who have preferential treatment should be like those of use who don't.

I make less sense than you. Cool.

 

[crystalhunting]

Sparky,KM...


What about the disabled?...they are given the same options as ethnic miniorities now?....Do they deserve some help in this way?





CH

 

[beckbabe]

The first time I went to a good high school friend's house who was black, I was bowled over by his mother's obvious hatred of me. He later explained that as a six year old in Georgia, she had watched her father be hanged by the KKK. Did that give her the right to be nasty to me? Probably not, but I understand it. That's one person, one minority, and one story, but there are many. I know a holocaust survivor who gets angry with other Jews who won't buy German products. He said that's the kind of divisive thinking that started the Holocaust in the first place.

It's easy to throw around generalizations like "everyone should be treated the same," but everyone doesn't act the same, or have the same past. Perhaps "treatment of minorities" should be on a case by case basis...at least in an ideal world.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Case by case? Bunk.

I can understand - case by case. Understanding is one thing.....

Bad - wrong - behavior is another. This woman was wrong to hate you. Her hating you is bad behavior.

This makes her no better than the men who hung her father.

I understand how she can blindley hate - but she is still wrong for it.

 

[beckbabe]

OK, point taken. It just feels so harsh to say"everyone gets the same no matter what."

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Yeah - in this day and age - it does seem funny....

I like to think of it as "equality."

 

[beckbabe]

I could give you such a pinch!

You know what I meant.

 

[dza]

hate to chime in about hate butt.......

the woman who didn't like beck (and on that note, whats not to like about beckbabe) ISN'T as bad as the people who hung her father. Why you ask? No hanging involved.

 

[beckbabe]

Huggggggggggs dza

 

[Mischka]

Minorities are people first - just like you and I. Everyday people. And they should be treated just like you and I.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you. But so many minorities have received such "unspecial" treatment, that sometimes favoring another minority just helps balance things out in my mind. I know that if I was faced with equally qualified people, and one was a minority, I would happily give the minority the chance first. Yes, I realize that most members of the majority are blameless, but why not shake things up a bit? The fact is that as much as we strive for a color-blind (or gender-blind, or disabled-blind, blah blah blah) society, we're not even close. And if someone out there has to bitterly complain about being passed over because of a superficial characteristic, why not let it be the able-bodied white person for a change?

And I disagree with the notion that there is nothing special about being a minority. The very idea that a person differs from the "norm," whether through physical characteristics, religion, or sexual orientation, helps challenge our minds and provides insight into ourselves and how we deal with others. I think most people have some minority characteristic, and that's what makes them different - and special - compared to everyone else.

 

[Blackbich]

Sparky, Sparky, Sparky - what am I going to do with you? I just don't know.

You know you've just opened yourself up for a major debate, right? lol. I'll give you my point from a racial view. Since I'm not handicapped, I can't debate that aspect.

Minorities are people first - just like you and I. Everyday people. And they should be treated just like you and I.

Yes, you are right. I wish that were the case. Just the fact we're referred to as minorities infers a difference. People will act on those differences.

There is nothing innately "special" about being a minority.

You've got this right!
Imagine if:
-every time you walk into a nice store you're followed and watched.
-every time you go into a nice restaurant people stare at you like you have 2 heads or something.
-you went into a county building to fill out a job application and received the cold shoulder and had dirty looks shot at you.
-you were called racist names because your skin color is different.
-your 5th grade teacher told your class that you were going to amount to nothing because you were black and that all of their tax money would be taking care of you for the rest of your life because you're worthless and was going to be on welfare until the day you die and that 'you people' should never have left the fields.
-you were pulled over by the police numerous times a week, month, year, just because you drive a nice car.
-people look at you like you are strange because you are able to articulate and speak proper English.
-your good friend told you they were friends with you because you're different from the rest of them
Yep, I have to agree, it's nothing special to be judged because you're different.

And no special treatment should be given.

True - in a perfect world. Without affirmative action laws, most black people would still be janitors and housekeepers. I know some people will argue this point but these laws are the only way most blacks, women especially, were able to get out of the 'roles' that had been carved for them in society. These laws are the only way to ensure I'm given an equal chance for many jobs out there. That's all affirmative action means...that you look at EACH applicant's qualifications, not their skin color. This is all I want. Not to have my application thrown in the trash before I hit the door, which has happened in the past.

And no member of a defined minority - should expect special treatment.

From what I can gather from people I know, no one 'expects' special treatment, we just want to be treated the same as everyone else. I don't want to be scared the cops are going to beat the crap out of me for some imagined offense. I want to be able to shop without being followed. I want to be able to go into a restaurant and not be refused service because I'm black, etc. That's the only special treatment minorities want.

Okay, Sparky...next??

Originally posted by beckbabe
The first time I went to a good high school friend's house who was black, I was bowled over by his mother's obvious hatred of me. He later explained that as a six year old in Georgia, she had watched her father be hanged by the KKK. Did that give her the right to be nasty to me? Probably not, but I understand it.

You are more understanding than I am. I agree with Sparky on this one. Holy shit, the sky must be falling!

I've had this debate with white friends of mine who justify someone's racism by saying, 'Well, he was beat up by black kids when he was younger' or some other bullcrap. My argument - every black person is not those black kids that beat you up when you were a kid and you know it. Yes, it is hard but you're no better than the racist idiots if you allow hatred to eat you alive and you mistreat good people because of it. I empathize with what she had to go through but she had no right to hate you. White men walking down the street in white sheets - yes; young white girl who's friends with her daughter - no. You didn't string her father up and, therefore, it was wrong of her to take it out on you. There are too many black people who grew up during those times who aren't hate-filled for me to understand.

 

[SirGalahad67]

Re: Re: Minorities? Blameless? Noble? Martyred? Victims? Targets? Suffering? Virtuous?

You are more understanding than I am. I agree with Sparky on this one. Holy shit, the sky must be falling!

I've had this debate with white friends of mine who justify someone's racism by saying, 'Well, he was beat up by black kids when he was younger' or some other bullcrap. My argument - every black person is not those black kids that beat you up when you were a kid and you know it. Yes, it is hard but you're no better than the racist idiots if you allow hatred to eat you alive and you mistreat good people because of it. I empathize with what she had to go through but she had no right to hate you. White men walking down the street in white sheets - yes; young white girl who's friends with her daughter - no. You didn't string her father up and, therefore, it was wrong of her to take it out on you. There are too many black people who grew up during those times who aren't hate-filled for me to understand.

Agreed 100 % BlackBeauty, I just will never understand anyone (of any group) who justifies hatred of others by claiming that someone long ago did the same.... good points in the rest of your post, even though I still disagree with you about affirmative discrimination (err, action).
But hell, I'd hire you dearie....
Take care,

 

[Angel]

Blackbich

You are one awesome woman.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

And if someone out there has to bitterly complain about being passed over because of a superficial characteristic, why not let it be the able-bodied white person for a change?

This is a notion that I just can't agree with. I can understand the argument that institutionalized preferences favoring minorities are necessary to "level the playing field", by giving minorities opportunities that wouldn't have been afforded them because of widespread racism, but do you really mean to argue that reverse discrimination is acceptable?

The idea that discrimination against one set of people because of their race isn't acceptable while discrimination against a different group is acceptable is bizarre. How can someone justify discrimating against one color of people for the purposes of achieving a "color-blind" society? (this is like the argument that executing murderers will somehow make murder less acceptable a behavior).

The underlying assumption of the argument for racial preferentialism seems to be that a just and equitable society will result when all people are discriminated against equally (and that perhaps all discrimination will end when no one group is any more powerful than another). "If we can even out the discrimination so whites get as much of it as minorities, we'll finally live in a just society."

How is this a just society? My idea of a just society is one that discourages behaviors it deems unacceptable, instead of advocating the reciprocal behavior. The decoding of the human genome has shown us that at the most fundamental level, in our DNA, there is only one race - the human race. Shouldn't we strive to build a society that reflects this basic scientific reality? Or do we want to continue to perpetuate cycles of resentment and feelings of entitlement in groups of people that aren't really all that different in the first place?

We should already be able to see that the results of reverse racism are poor - not nearly as bad as discrimination of minorities by majorities, but still unjust. Are their really only two options here? Is it only a choice between minorities being mistreated and whites being mistreated?

The amount of guilt and self-flagellation over the issue of race is amazing to me. Does it really make people feel better to lower the bar of achievement for another group of people and give them condescending pats on the back for lower levels of achievement?

I believe the causes of racial inequities in America are much more complicated than that of simple discrimination, so why should we believe the solution lies in reverse discrimination? If people really care about minorities they should put their actions where their guilt is and get out there and do something to help them achieve instead of lowering the bar for their achievement and punishing hard-working people who happen to have a different color skin.

I agree with Sparky. There's nothing special about minorities and that's exactly what makes us all so damn special. No one is more inherently more entitled to success than anyone else. To treat a group differently from others is to separate them from the pack, to either allow them to elevate themselves in their own minds to superior status or allow them to wallow in self-pity.

It may make us feel better to think we're "compassionate" by lifting up the historically downtrodden in this way, but we're really not doing them any favors. We're simply endorsing a behavior we claim to abhor and perpetuating a cycle of racial preference when that's exactly what claim to want to get rid of.

The intentions are good, but we're lying to ourselves.

End of rant.

 

[SirGalahad67]

In an ideal world, I would agree with you. But so many minorities have received such "unspecial" treatment, that sometimes favoring another minority just helps balance things out in my mind. I know that if I was faced with equally qualified people, and one was a minority, I would happily give the minority the chance first. Yes, I realize that most members of the majority are blameless, but why not shake things up a bit? The fact is that as much as we strive for a color-blind (or gender-blind, or disabled-blind, blah blah blah) society, we're not even close. And if someone out there has to bitterly complain about being passed over because of a superficial characteristic, why not let it be the able-bodied white person for a change?

And I disagree with the notion that there is nothing special about being a minority. The very idea that a person differs from the "norm," whether through physical characteristics, religion, or sexual orientation, helps challenge our minds and provides insight into ourselves and how we deal with others. I think most people have some minority characteristic, and that's what makes them different - and special - compared to everyone else.

Yes, this is similar to Hitler's arguments in the 1920's in Germany. After all, he maintained that Jews as a group had suffered less economically than other Germans, therefore they were deserving of some harsh treatment.
I realize that is far from your intent, but you place yourself on slippery ground when you start the argument of "good racial discrimination" versus "bad racial discrimination".
Evil is evil, period.

 

[Softly]

Another view.

Hi All.

Sparky, you know my husband as SEAL 6. He was a Captain for a commuter airline in the NYC area. He took a job in Raleigh flying for an airline, owned by a black pilot, who flew for US Airways.
Because my husband was an approved IBM captain, they landed the IBM account. The owner and my husband became fast friends.
They took many special charters together, which included flying some of the most important people in the United States. Many flights were highly classified.

The balck owner, often said, when they were in a southern area that before 1968, he would be attacked, if he tried to stay at "This Hotel."

My husband, who is an expert in hand to hand combat, and who weights 246 pounds, and stands six, foot four, simply told him that if any "Southern Mother-fucker" said anything that he would destroy him. MY husband went from high school to the Navy, and then to college.

In the service, he was well liked by the Black men. He came from Vermont. His Great Great Grand father spent four years killing southern white boys so slavery would end. He is a fifth generation Vermonter. His Great, Great, Great, Great grandfather was a Green Mountain Boy who fought with Ethen Allen to defeat the British at Ticonderoga.

He was employed by the CIA, and took a pledge to protect and defend the constitiution of the United States. Often he says, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal." I have no doubt that he would give his life to try to stop a crowd from attacking a black man.

So, do I believe that black people should be given a chance to live the American dream. Yes, I do. They should be given some preference, a guarantee of a chance.

 

[Blackbich]

Re: Blackbich

You are one awesome woman.

Thank You, Angelic one

Originally posted by SirGalahad67
But hell, I'd hire you dearie....
Take care,

Thank you honey. lol.

Originally posted by Oliver Clozoff
The underlying assumption of the argument for racial preferentialism seems to be that a just and equitable society will result when all people are discriminated against equally (and that perhaps all discrimination will end when no one group is any more powerful than another). "If we can even out the discrimination so whites get as much of it as minorities, we'll finally live in a just society."

Like this would ever fully happen. Pardon my sarcasm but if reverse discrimination in the workplace is the only thing white men have to deal with, this is a good thing. We live in a white-based society. We would all be put on boats before it got to the point of whites getting as much of it as minorities.

A white person has never been discriminated against the way minorities have in this country. As is the case with any situation, how can someone who's never been through a situation even begin to understand it? Why would someone who doesn't have to deal with it even care how the people who are going through it on a daily basis feel? The only people who could understand have minority friends and have witnessed the crappy side of America's tolerance towards anyone different.

I agree that reverse discrimination is awful. My point is...why should anyone be discriminated against for things to be fair?? It's an unfortunate fact that people in human resource positions have ideas they've grown up with. Those ideas, right or wrong, carry over into their job, which includes hiring practices. This is what resulted in laws being put into effect in the first place. Even with the laws, there's no way in ensure people won't be discriminated against, regardless of their color.

The decoding of the human genome has shown us that at the most fundamental level, in our DNA, there is only one race - the human race.
Shouldn't we strive to build a society that reflects this basic scientific reality?

I've known this for years because of my religious background. But how do we build this society when people are instantly and consistently judged based on their color.

Or do we want to continue to perpetuate cycles of resentment and feelings of entitlement in groups of people that aren't really all that different in the first place?

Okay, now I'm getting ready to sound like a racist bitch but here goes. White people are entitled in that they don't have the stigmatism attached to them that minorities have. No worrying about people thinking you're beneath them just because your skin's different. No worrying about people assuming you're too ignorant to complete a job because you look different. No
worrying about negative stereotypes affecting the way people look at you.

Do I think that's an entitlement? Damn right! Does it cause resentment in me? No, not now. It did when I was applying for jobs right out of college and got major attitude from the places I applied at. It pissed me off because the only thing I wanted was a chance; they weren't willing to give it to me because of something superficial. Then they hired people, who happened to be white, right out of high school with no experience. Talk about a slap in the face! If every minority has to go through what I did (and very few of my friends didn't go through something similar), I can see where that would build resentment. Imagine getting that crap in EVERY aspect of your life, not just on a job. Maybe you can see where that resentment could get out of hand. Do I believe I'm entitled to have jobs just handed to me because of this? No, but I do believe that I should be seriously considered for a job if I have the qualifications. If someone wants to say that's an entitlement then so be it.

The cycles of resentment you mention will be perpetuated because society can't get past a person's skin color. Period.

Does it really make people feel better to lower the bar of achievement for another group of people and give them condescending pats on the back for lower levels of achievement?

I don't know who you've been talking about but nobody I've ever talked about has ever mentioned this. I, personally, would be pissed off if I found out the only reason I received something was because someone 'lowered the bar' for me. At the risk of sounding testy, black people are not stupid. Neither are latinos, native americans, or asians. I don't think this is guilt talking, I think it's people trying to find a solution but not knowing what to do.

 

[Laurel]

Re: Re: Blackbich

A white person has never been discriminated against the way minorities have in this country. As is the case with any situation, how can someone who's never been through a situation even begin to understand it?

We had a discussion about this in college. The subject of discrimination against minorities was brought up. Some dumb jock complained that he had a harder time finding a job because he had a pierced ear. Another chick complained because she wasn't a cheerleader at her school so people treated her as less. Their whole point was "Hey, we've been discriminated against tooo!" None of these whiners had an understanding of TRUE discrimination - the kind that affects every aspect of your life.

Us White folks can sit around and intellectualize the subject. But we will NEVER be faced with what Black people in America have to deal with. Things are better than they have been, but they are still not equal. Anyone who says any different is either full of shit or lying. There are inequities that are so ingrained in our system and in our mindsets that we can't even see them.

I remember hearing Eddie Murphy talk about an incident in some town he was passing through. His back was to a group of kids, and one of them yelled at him, "Hey, nigger!" and the whole group laughed. And Eddie knew that all he had to do was turn around and those same filthy-mouthed kids would crowd around him saying, "Eddie! Eddie!" But he didn't.

I'm not going to debate the affirmative action question because it's complicated and my knowledge is limited. But I think that the non-Blacks in the debate (including myself) have an incomplete understanding of just how oppressive institutional discrimination can be. We need to be aware of this lack of understanding, and adjust for it. We also need to be aware that inequities DO still exist - that the promises of our forefathers of a nation where are "are created equal" have not been fulfilled, not by a long shot.

 

[Juspar Emvan]

OK, I'm not well versed on the topic and I come from a very different cultural environment from most of you and I didn't read this whole tread in detail. But here it is, right or wrong, like it or don't, my opionion.



Crap



You cannot correct past wrongs (and they are not the dabate here), by perpetration of new ones. It's time everyone got over the whole minority question and started treating people on the basis of their proven record.

What we class as minorities are merely descriptive terms to identify individuals, they are not usually character defining atributes. I wish that people on both sides would just stop making it an issue.

Afirmative action is prejudice, and anyone who says different (as far as I can see) is simply deluding themselves. Everything needs to be based on merit.

 

[rambling man]

There are people out there in positions of authority who discriminate against fat people, blonde people, those with southern accents, you see what I am getting at here.I'd say those discriminations are at least as prevalent if not more so than racial or gender discrimination. Plus, the stereotypes that go with such people are much more acceptable.

we will never be a non-discriminatory society, everyone will eventually run up against someone who just doesn't like you and you cant do a damn thing about it

My mom always taught me two wrongs dont make a right, they just piss more folks off

affirmative action is wrong, wrong, wrong..

I have also noticed recent language in the affirmative action statements that is now trying to exclude Asians.....we encourage application by women and minorities who are underrepresented at the academic level......what's that crap about?


I loved when a white kid whose parents were from Kenya won an African American scholarship to Georgetown and the judge later ruled that he was, in fact, African-American...

 

[Cheyenne]

I loved when a white kid whose parents were from Kenya won an African American scholarship to Georgetown and the judge later ruled that he was, in fact, African-American...

Hadn't heard that one, but it's a good one. The kid is more "African -American" than the "African -Americans" who have lived here for generations, if you take it literally!

 

[rambling man]

I fyou talk to a real African black, you will see a great deal of difference between them and the supposed urban American black culture. Every African I have ever met is usually reserved, dignified, intelligent, articulate, and knowledgeable. They do not regard American blacks as African in any way. They do not sound like rap singers.

When all the media outlets started using Jesse Jackson's phraseology, African-American, I thought it was kind of stupid. After all, blacks do not comprise 100% of Africa. There are millions of Arabs, Afrikaaners, Indians, and descendants of colonials who, except for some of the colonials and Indians, may have lived there for many centuries. What right does ol' Jesse have to claim the whole continent for the one group?

I have the same problem with "native Americans." My ancestors, in some part, have been here almost three and a half centuries. They hacked their homes out of wilderness so rough that Indians had not lived there in centuries. I have just as much right to call myself a native American even though I have not an ounce of Indian blood.

And to Indian apologists out there, read the book Follow the River, or research some of the Draper documents. The whites may have stolen and forced Indians from their land, but did it give the Indians the right to do things like cut babies from the stomachs of still living mothers, to slowly torture a mother and her daughters to death with fire? There were atrocities on both sides, no doubt about it. Also, groups as different as the Cherokees and Aztecs practiced genocide. The Aztecs did it for religious reasons, the Cherokees so they could steal the land of weaker groups. The Indians were hardly the state of nature innocents some people make them out to be. If they had superior technology and organization, they would have been just as brutal to Europe.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Good conversation thus far.......

But what amazes me is some of your interpretation........

I never mentioned "Affirmative Action."

I unfortunately believe that "greed" is a powerful force in our current society and that some minorities fall easy prey to it - therefore - sometimes, sometimes, "some form of protection," is warranted. I do think that the Affirmative Action system, as is exists today - is generally unfair - but its intentions are good. It needs to be overhauled and improved.

And I never mentioned a "perfect world."

Remember, I don't believe in "absolute perfection." I believe that that is, an impossibility. It's too finite. And I believe all/everything is infinite. I believe in infinite improvement. Things, all, everything - can always get better - be improved upon.


And never came close to mentioning the word "black."

Interesting how some of you infer the word "black" for the word "minority." Not any other common identifier for any other minority - but black - it pops up often.

What might that indicate?

 

[rambling man]

blacks have been the most restive minority and their political groups are the most active...that's why people think black as a minority first and foremost....their fear is about the hispanic population's growth that will soon replace them as the largest minority.

The fact that many hispanic groups often vote Republican scares the hell out of them. Also, the fact is that the GOP is attracting a growing number of affluent blacks all the time.

the thing is, that for all their talk about discrimination and racism being such factors, they are becoming the ones controlling many cities, Baltimore, DC, Atlanta, and they are creating, as the Irish and Italians before them, political machines...


there is no perfect world, no ideal situation, you are on target. The best we can do is try and make sure everyone gets the best start possible, meaning education, then send them out to deal with the world on its terms...

You started the thread with minorities and most people have an opinion about minorities, whether they share them at the office or not. It's hard to confine it to one narrow discussion