Military discipline and training

[Pure]

does the 'discipline' of bdsm persons have anything in common with 'military discipline'? any commonality of objectives?

does the training of low level military folks--like privates in the army-- have anything to do with the 'training' of subs or slaves?

what, if anything, can bdsm persons learn from military discipline'?

does the rigor of military discipline have anything to do with 'extreme' discipline measures as describe by some (OSG)?

is there an erotism (e.g., sadism) of military discipline and/or punisment?

{added:}
We'd be very interested to hear from dominant, submissive, sadistic, masochistic persons who are of military background or whose partner in deviation is or was of such background.

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I realize that only a small number here have direct experience: I'm thinking of AngelicA and Betticus. But others of us have second hand experience, e.g., (in my case) through a father who was a career military person who wanted to bring that discipline to his family.

 

[WriterDom]

To a large part, military training is more of group type activity. Never be first, never be last, and don't volunteer yourself kind of thing.

 

[WriterDom]

And in the navy or air force, once you get out of basic, it is pretty much like a regular job, except they can't fire you.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Idle Comments

And in the navy or air force, once you get out of basic, it is pretty much like a regular job, except they can't fire you.

No, they don't fire you for simple f/u's ... just restrict you to quarters, take away pay, give you extra duty beyond normal working hours for which the punished gets no extra pay ... and that's just non-judicial punishment.

The above probably blurs the line unless one realizes punishment falls in the toolbox of discipline.

In the US Army, administrative "chapter," another means of dispensing with a substandard soldier, exists. i can't remember them all off the top of my head, but they include discovery of underage status, and "unfit for military service." The outcome of this tool usually results in dismissal from service, no harm/no foul. Call it incompatibility, or an anullment.

The last means of punishment falls under judicial, or courts-martial. If you lose here, punishment ranges from reduction in rank and forfeiture of pay thru discharge from service under less than honorable conditions to incarceration. The latter could last for life, or alternately death, by lethal injection.

As an aside, i watched The Hill after dawn broke this morning and i found myself still awake. Sean Connery turned in an interesting performance. The movie reminded me this thread existed.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

The Soldier's Creed

A bump for Pure, waiting for BB.

"I am an American soldier. I am a warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army values. I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment, and myself. I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat. I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life. I am an American Soldier."

 

[Vixandra]

As a woman in the AF- I found nothing BDSM related about basic. Unless you count the sheer torture it was for me to do pushups because of my messed up shoulders. But that's different, a personal issue.
Basic is not and should not be personal. Its a group thing, where we go one we go all. Only way to make it through is with everyone else.
That's how I passed my run test at basic- picked a girl that was running at about my pace and yelled at her the entire two mile run. We both passed and my own flight-mates passed because they knew if they slowed down enough to where I was, I'd yell at them too.
Read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers." That'll give you a good idea of what BMT should be.

Now, as an emerging dominant (we know who wears the combat boots in my marriage), do I think the military influenced me in that- not really.
I was an alpha type bitch before I joined, still am.

And in the navy or air force, once you get out of basic, it is pretty much like a regular job, except they can't fire you.

Yeah, but that also means you can't just say, "Screw you, I quit!" and walk away for good.
Okay, you can try but it doesn't work that way.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

My military experience (9 years Army) does have relevance, but not due to basic training, except in a mental way. My job description had much more relevance.

Basic training has the sole purpose of getting untrained soldiers from all walks of life to learn to depend on each other, and work together to achieve a common goal. The physical aspect of the training has a two fold purpose. It gets the recruits (many of whom were couch potatoes for the first 19 years of their life) into physical shape, and it serves the purpose of using a shared experience t obuild comraderie. The only portions of basic training that I find useful now are from my analyzation of how the drill instructors carried themselves, how they spoke such that there was no room left for dissagreement, and how when actions merited disciplining a recruit, the discipline was carried out with ruthless efficiency.

My military experience after basic does carry more relevance however. My job was in Military Inteligence (I know, the two words do not go together, it is an oxymoron, yada yada..) Aside from the language skills I learned, I learn a few things that are useful in a BDSM context.

I learned how to analyze written and spoken words as well as a person's actions and manerisims, which allows me to determine what is truly going on in a situation, reading of body language, and reading between the lines so to speak. I learned different theories, ways and means of deploying psy-ops (psychological warfare operations) which help in the development of a properly structured "mind-fuck" which elicit the needed responses and subsequent growth of my sub/slave. I learned the basic tenets of interrogation, how to prepare the subject to be best suited for my gaining of information, (humilliation, sleep deprivation, good cop/bad cop. breaking of a subjects routines, establishing new routines for the subject, carrot and stick principle, to name a few)

In short, I learned many of the skills that I use to establish and maintain a mental dominance, as well, as the ability to develop tasks and disciplinary actions that are best suited to the ongoing development of my sub/slave.

But, my experiences are not representative of the average ground pounder, dope on a rope, gun bunny, desk jockey or propeller head in the army, or any of the other services... (though as for the psychological aspects of basic training, the marines have it down to a science, hence the definition of "jar head" being where the marines unscrew the head of th erecruit, take out everything, and only put back in what the marines want.)

 

[Pure]

Very interesting TNR. I searched the 'net a bit on interrogation, at one time.

I think what you say IS relevant to SM. But not in its mainstream.

I believe there are two schools of SM. In one, the bottoms resistance is cherished and his/her equality is affirmed.

In the minority school, the aim is to eliminate the ability to resist, which is what I think an interrogator does.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Very interesting TNR. I searched the 'net a bit on interrogation, at one time.

I think what you say IS relevant to SM. But not in its mainstream.

I believe there are two schools of SM. In one, the bottoms resistance is cherished and his/her equality is affirmed.

In the minority school, the aim is to eliminate the ability to resist, which is what I think an interrogator does.

There are as many facets to interrogation as there are to BDSM... and like BDSM, the means and methods may go overboard or seem to, especially to those from the outside looking in, as recently evidenced by the prison photographs in Iraq recently.

(which incidently, did not create a big outcry among the Iraqi population as the means and methods used by our forces are much less harmful than those used by any of the interrogators used by the other nations in the Middle East and even by themselves prior to Saddam's fall. But I digress...)

As for interrogation, the ultimate aim to gain whatever information the prisoner may have. This is crudely accomplished through physical brutality, or may be achieved with greater finesse via use of mental conditioning. If you gain the confidence of the one being interrogated, become their friend and confidant, make them believe that in telling you all that they know will result in easier conditions for them, you will ultimately gain much better and more relevant information.

In transfering this sort of knowledge into BDSM practices, the means used may be the same, but much greater care must be used to protect the sub/bottom, as, unlike a POW, you as their Dom or Master have a much greater interest in their well being.

Knowledge is a tool. It can be used for good or for evil, but it is the way that it is used that may be good or evil. In and of itself, knowledge is good, and grants power to the one with the knowledge.

my two cents.

 

[Pure]

Well, I wouldn't want to jam the whole SM phenomenon into the Dom/Sub conventions of institutionalized 'safe sane consensual' deviance.

I used the terms top and bottom, to allude to a basic unit of an encounter; long or short terms is not specified.

Interest in 'well being', you say. Why not, in both military and SM cases? The first objection to brutality and torture is that the just don't work.

The second objection is that their news, impossible to suppress, is recruitment literature--psy ops, if you will-- for the enemy.

The best methods, as you say, turn the interrogated one into an 'asset'. But of course a larger phenomenon than interrogation is involved. A war in which their is an entity whose resistance (not necessarily existence) is to be eliminated.

For any prisoner, or interrogated person: His/her well being is--and should be-- left intact, while his 'working allegiance' so to say, has been shifted in the desired manner.

Note: I realize the whole "I will protect you" approach--taken as sincere, non deceptive-- is part of a strategy.